Noob Questions - GF Specific

[skleice]

Hey Everybody,

These are noob questions but, they're GF specific, so I'm posting here.

First off, thank you for all of the amazing info in this forum. I have read through quite a few pages of threads and though much of it is over my head, it has been very helpful.

Back in June I was diagnosed with celiacs. The dietary changes weren't that big of a deal...aside from the beer. I had no brewing experience at all, but decided I needed to take matters into my own hands after being underwhelmed with the available options at the store. I have five 1 gallon extract & partial mash brews under my belt, but I'm looking to scale up and move to all grain brewing. I plan to brew 2.5-3 gallon batches because I like variety and will only be brewing for myself.

On to the questions:

1) BIAB? - I was planning on going BIAB due to ease and equipment, but after reading about the long mash times and efficiency, I'm wondering if this is suitable for GF.

2) Kettle Size - From what I understand, GF brewing requires more grain than traditional barely. I was thinking of getting a 7.5-8 gallon kettle to brew 2.5-3 gallon batches. Good or no?

3) Cereal Killer mill? = I've seen contradicting posts on whether this mills fine enough for GF (I think because the design has changed over time). Is this mill a good choice or am I better off with a Monster?

4) Software - I read that Brewers Friend is the most GF friendly. Yes?

My immediate plans are to get a grain mill and try some of the kits sold by glutenfreehomebrewing. I'm planning on scaling them down to 1 gallon to get a handle on the process and using enzymes, etc. Sound like a good plan?

Any insight is greatly appreciated. I'm really looking to improve from being a cook following a recipe to a knowledgeable brewer. Help!?!?

 

[Jettaguy]

Hey there, I have been GF brewing for about 1.5 yrs and have about 9 batches done and all have turned out awesome. GFHomebrewing has some great recipes and with their help I have branched our making my own recipes. I actually went out and bought a 10g Kettle and mash tun to make 5g batches. With 20lb or so grain bill you need a good size mash tun. I have mostly been doing all grain and partial mash. I have been using a Barley crusher grain mill but found its not great on the rice malts being so hard that it jams even with a low speed high tourque drill. I have just bought a Victorian style mill which I will be using in my next two batches in the coming weeks.

View attachment IMG_8901.jpgView attachment IMG_9036.jpgView attachment IMG_9790.jpg

 

[glutarded-chris]

My 2 cents worth:

1) BIAB? -

I have used a bag for the mash in coolers for a long time and I have had good results. I don’t use the bag for heating, so it is not true BIAB. I mash with the bag, pull the bag to extract, and then transfer to the boil kettle for a normal boil. Works great. Since GF grains don’t have a husk like barley, stuck sparge is a real risk. I think the bag makes sense if you don’t have a “real” mash tun and a process that works for GF grain. No stuck sparge, you just pull the bag and go. You can always start with the bag and then upgrade later if you like!

2) Kettle Size -

With AG you need full volume boil plus boil-off volume. I would plan for at least a 5 gallon batch size. It is the same effort for one gallon as 5 gallon and I consider 5 gallon the minimum batch size for the effort. I would go for at least a 10 gallon boil kettle.

3) Cereal Killer mill?

For GF grain, your mill should be adjustable for gap size. I have the MM with 3 rollers, and if I had to do it over, I would get the 2 roller mill.

4) Software -

I use my own calculation spreadsheets derived from “how to brew” and they have served me well, but I see a lot of posts where people use other sources.

 

[skleice]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I will proceed with trying out 1 gallon all grain BIAB and see how it works out for me. I won't be expanding until March/April, so I'll have some time to experiment.

Regarding the mill - I know the Cereal Killer is adjustable and goes down to at least .25", but I can't seem to find out if it goes down closer than that. I can always email the company. If that's not an option, I'll go with the Monster MM2.

I'll post when I get some AG brews under my belt!

 

[JMath]

My 2 cents worth:

1) BIAB? -

I have used a bag for the mash in coolers for a long time and I have had good results. I don’t use the bag for heating, so it is not true BIAB. I mash with the bag, pull the bag to extract, and then transfer to the boil kettle for a normal boil. Works great. Since GF grains don’t have a husk like barley, stuck sparge is a real risk. I think the bag makes sense if you don’t have a “real” mash tun and a process that works for GF grain. No stuck sparge, you just pull the bag and go. You can always start with the bag and then upgrade later if you like!

Chris, do you use rice hulls?

 

[glutarded-chris]

I don't bother with rice hulls when I use the bag. It drains no problem even with an all millet malt grain bill. With a proper mash tun using a manifold or a false bottom only, I would use rice hulls to be extra sure to have a good filter bed.

 

[JMath]

What do you think about the stainless steel mesh BIAB systems? To me those seem pretty similar to a bag, thus negating the need for rice hulls. But I'm not sure how much you're having to move/shake the bag around and whatnot.

For example, from Clawhammer:

 

[glutarded-chris]

I think the metal mesh would be fine for filtration as it offers a lot of surface area to filter through, however, if it does not fit close to the sides and bottom, you get a fairly large portion of mash water that is not in contact with the grain. With GF grain and its inherent low efficiency potential, you are always struggling to get the gravity up so you don't have to boil off a bunch of extra water. The bag allows pretty much all the water you have in there to be with the grain. Also, with the bag, you can squeeze it to help get extra out if needed. I don't usually have to squeeze and some would say squeezing just adds more hot side aeration, but I like having the option.

One benefit of the steel mesh that I see is is would be an advantage for step mashes where you need to heat between rests. You can do it with the bag, but I always worry that the bag would rupture during the heating. When I did step mashes, I always did the step mash directly in a kettle and then transferred to a mash bag in a cooler for the last rest. Sort of a PITA, but it works. If the metal mesh basket fits reasonably close to the bottom and sides you could just pull the mesh basket off the bottom a few inches, heat and then lower and stir.

Lots of different ways to do it. If you already have a metal mesh basket large enough, give it a go. Just make sure you have a way to hold it while you are extracting. When I do over 10lb of grain i use two bags and two separate coolers so I can hold the bags just above the surface of the collected wart for a few minutes. If you have 16 pound of soaked grain in a single basket, it starts to get heavy. Some use a pulley system to hoist and hold, but I never bothered with that.

 

[JMath]

Great info Chris. I am actually looking into getting the digital brewing system from Clawhammer in order to move to all grain, but want to make sure it's going to work with GF grains. The fact that you can easily do step mashes and have precise temperature control is a huge selling point. I just don't want to mess around with coolers and bags and worrying about the temperature the whole time. Plus I need the larger kettle.

From what you said, it sounds like it would work out, since the basket is made exactly for the kettle. And it has clips that hold the basket above the kettle for draining.

But I guess the remaining question is whether rice hulls would be needed to keep the circulation going in that system.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Looks like a cool system. If I understand the system correctly from the link, it heats from the bottom of the vessel but circulates the wart so that you can determine the temperature. If that is the case, then maybe it diminishes the issue of having a good amount of volume outside of the mesh basket (it looks like it has a fair amount of volume on the bottom). If it moves the wart during the mash, all of the wart will have contact with the mash. I would at least start with rice hulls to make sure you have a good filter bed.

For what I do, ease of cleaning is a major consideration. I would consult people on the forum that have used those type of systems. Pumps, plate chillers etc. always give me pause, and I wonder of you can keep them effectively clean over time an how much of an effort it is to keep them clean. I have no idea, but I would ask and I would be interested in the results.

I would pay attention to reviews over the heating times. This one is only 110V and I would expect you would have to have high amp 220V for reasonable heating times. People in Europe have that right out of the wall, but we usually only have access through drier connections unless we have a separate box put in. I would question if this 110 system will take forever to boil and change mash temps.

What size batch is this designed for? It has a 10 gallon boil kettle, but the carboy they show looks small.

Also, with this system, you cannot sparge. The efficiency of GF grain is low relative to barley, so if you are not going to sparge and boil down, then you are going to have to use a lot more grain. Make sure this system can handle the extra grain or you are going to be disappointed in the size of batch you can produce.

Not trying to talk you out of it! It looks high quality. Just would not want you to pay good money for something you will be disappointed with. I will be interested in your research results and if you choose this system, how it works for you!

 

[skleice]

Chris,
Thanks for all of your info. Your posts and experimentation are invaluable. Is your general process/setup discussed in any particular thread? I know you biab in a cooler, but am now curious as to how you approach sparging too.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Bits and pieces are scattered around the forum. It is always evolving, but if you like I will post my current process.

 

[JMath]

I would at least start with rice hulls to make sure you have a good filter bed.

Good idea, couldn't hurt for the first batch.

I would question if this 110 system will take forever to boil and change mash temps.

I'm aware of this limitation. I'm still waiting for some general reviews of this system, but I imagine they wouldn't build it this way if it didn't work. I'm sure it's certainly better than my electric stovetop.

What size batch is this designed for? It has a 10 gallon boil kettle, but the carboy they show looks small.

5 Gallon

Also, with this system, you cannot sparge. The efficiency of GF grain is low relative to barley, so if you are not going to sparge and boil down, then you are going to have to use a lot more grain. Make sure this system can handle the extra grain or you are going to be disappointed in the size of batch you can produce.

Great call out. Maybe I need to think about the logistics a bit more, but couldn't I still batch sparge by draining the runnings into another vessel, then collecting them back in the main kettle? Of course, that kind of defeats the whole single-vessel idea of this system. But I do have my current 5 gal kettle I could use for that.

 

[skleice]

JMath - I've noticed that they tend to boil with the lid partially on in the clawhammer vids. I'm assuming it's to keep a decent boil going.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Good point, you can batch sparge in a second vessel if the basket fits reasonably well. Might be pretty convenient if the support clips work with the sparge vessel.

 

[glutarded-chris]

@skleice,

The basic mash process I have been using is discussed in post #12 of this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=588187

Nothing fancy to the sparge. After the first runnings, I put the grain bag back in the cooler, level it a little, add the sparge water, gently stir, let sit a minute and then pull up the bag. It is best if the sparge water comes to the top of the grain.

The more sparge steps you do the more you wash the grain of the valuable sugars, but the more you have to boil down. I used to do 3 sparges to get my efficiency up but now I just add a few extra pounds of grain and do only one sparge.

 

[JMath]

Good point, you can batch sparge in a second vessel if the basket fits reasonably well. Might be pretty convenient if the support clips work with the sparge vessel.

I was actually thinking of lifting the basket on the clips, draining the Clawhammer kettle into a temporary holding tank, putting the basket back down and sparging once again in the Clawhammer. Then I would remove the basket completely and return the liquid from the holding tank to the Clawhammer kettle to start the boil.

However, I just contacted Clawhammer about the maximum weight of grain they recommend and they had this to say:

I just ran some quick numbers-- and it looks like the basket will max out around 16 pounds - which sounds about right as I had a bit more room when I did 14 pounds. I don't think I would push much past 14 pounds without holding back some of the mash water-- basically don't do a full volume mash.

That's a huge problem right? Since we have to use a lot of grain to be GF (I've seen recipes around 20 lbs. for big beers), it sounds like this may not be the system for us. I may have to start looking into 15 gal electric mash tuns.

 

[glutarded-chris]

My guess is you would either run out of room for grain or if you sparged more to get efficiency up you would be high on the kettle volume.

I would consult others but if you go with electric i would consider a 220 system. I live in florida and have considered looking into electric to be able to brew inside in the summer. Never looked very hard but figured it would have to be 220 to get 5+ gallons up to temp in a reasonable time.

 

[skleice]

I'm leaning towards doing induction (3500w) in my basement. It's only the first cold front of November and I'm already dreading a long winter brew day. I think it would be easier to hold mash temps and also slightly quicker to get temps up too. Plus, I have a big utility sink for easy cleaning, chiller hookup, etc.

I literally have a blank slate to start with, but I'm trying to make informed decisions so I don't have to change equipment down the road.

I'll have a much better idea of my needs after I actually brew all grain (Xmas time).

 

[JMath]

Yeah, I hear you about the 220V. Unfortunately I don't think anyone makes a (safe) extension cord that I could run from my basement to my kitchen.

At this point I don't think there's an economical electric system for us gluten free brewers. There are definitely options out there in the ~$2000 range.

That being said, I'm still committed to finding a way to automate mash temperatures, so I'll likely see what I can piece together.

 

[Legume]

However, I just contacted Clawhammer about the maximum weight of grain they recommend and they had this to say:



That's a huge problem right? Since we have to use a lot of grain to be GF (I've seen recipes around 20 lbs. for big beers), it sounds like this may not be the system for us. I may have to start looking into 15 gal electric mash tuns.[/QUOTE]

It should be workable, most of my mashes are 13 to 14 lbs of grain + 1 lb of candy sugar. This system might keep you from making huge beers, but you should be able to hit 1.070 with 16 lbs of grain + 1 lb of sugar(I have never made a beer larger than that).

 

[JMath]

It should be workable, most of my mashes are 13 to 14 lbs of grain + 1 lb of candy sugar. This system might keep you from making huge beers, but you should be able to hit 1.070 with 16 lbs of grain + 1 lb of sugar(I have never made a beer larger than that).

Interesting, maybe I'll have to look at more recipes. I was judging based on the glutenfreehomebrewing.org kits. Their IPA is 16 lbs before rice hulls, and their West Coast Pale Ale is 23 lbs! I wonder if they are not accounting for the efficiency that you guys are getting now.

 

[Legume]

The all rice malt grainbills are big, as rice malt has a high % husk. You might not be able to make big all rice beers on this system.

Millet has very little husk, alowing for smaller volume grain bills.

I tend to use (non malted) millet as base malt with Eckert rice malts as speciaty malts.

This system seems apealing to me, but you are right that it might be limiting if you have not already dialed in your process and can consistantly get decient efficiency.

 

[skleice]

Not sure if you guys have seen these recent blog posts at GFHB. They discuss biab efficiency, absorbtion, mash ratios, etc.

https://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.org/blog.php

 

[JMath]

Thanks Legume, that makes sense. I would also steer toward millet as base and rice as specialty (I think glutarded-chris recommends this as well). Perhaps this system would be workable after all.

Yes skleice, I have been following those posts too. I don't want to lose the efficiency by doing BIAB, so the challenge is figuring out how to do a sparge in one of these electric BIAB systems without too much extra equipment.

I'm starting to lean toward the idea of ditching the basket and going with a bag, putting the bag on top of a false bottom so it doesn't touch the heater. Maybe it wouldn't max out at 16 lbs then. However, the basket could still be helpful during sparging.

WIP process I'm thinking of:

• Mash with bag in the Clawhammer kettle (no basket)
• Suspend basket over 2nd 10 gal kettle, pull bag and set in basket to drain
• Drain Clawhammer kettle of wort into 2nd kettle
• Heat sparge water in Clawhammer kettle
• Return bag to Clawhammer kettle, do batch sparge
• Pull bag again and set in basket over 2nd kettle
• Return wort from 2nd kettle to Clawhammer, start boil

This would require the 2nd kettle have the same drain fitting as the Clawhammer kettle. That would allow me to move the wort around using the pump. But I would still get away with only one heating element, being able to do both mashing and boiling with it.

Thoughts?

 

[Jettaguy]

Just a though on the draining of your bag into a 2nd kettle. I did a partial mash on my last brew and just put a BBQ grill over top the kettle and put the bag on top and let it drain into the kettle. I had some pre heated sparge water in a cooler to pour over the grains after they drained. I did two brews in one day and the other was a full all grain of about 20lbs of grain. Even with my 10 gallon mash tun I find it a bit difficult as it requires sooo much water due to absorption etc. plus I do have a false bottom that requires about 2 gallons of extra water. It does take a while to hone down the best method for your equipment and timing everything...especially doing two batches at the same time.

 

[JMath]

Jettaguy, what grains did you use?

After some poking around on the electric brewing forum, I started looking at the Grainfather system. It definitely doesn't look as nice as the Clawhammer or other systems, but functionally seems like it's designed with sparging in mind (good for us), and they claim the capacity is up to 20 lbs (vs 16 lbs with the Clawhammer). The sparge would essentially be a fly sparge rather than batch, but it wouldn't require moving the grain back and forth between vessels like in my process above.

What's also cool about it is that the chiller could be used during mashing, in theory. That's particularly important for us since we have to return to lower temps for enzyme activity after the gelatinization step.

I'm also going to look into the Unibrau V3, as it seems to allow some kind of sparge. Little pricey though.

 

[Jettaguy]

I get my grains from glutenfreehomebrewing. Rice, Millet, Buckwheat etc. We definitely could spend a boat load on equipment. I priced out a 30BBL system for $350,000 LOL. I’ve gotten used to the process I have now, kind of enjoy the process of the old school way. My stainless steel wart chiller coil cools my wort down pretty quick 20-30 min anyway. I’ll have to check out the Grainfather, I’ve heard others mention it before and quite like it. My Irish Cream Ale I brewed last week I had 18lbs of grains including the hulls in my mash tun, just in case my efficiency was low as it has been in the past I did add 3.3 lbs of the liquid sorghum malt. My OG came out to 1.059 so it will turn out a little stronger. My last Dark Lager unfortunately only had 1.039. Commercial brewers also “top up” with extracts in a lot of cases.

 

[rjmaillie]

So here’s my two cents ... I’ve been brewing on the grainfather system, which as someone mentioned seems very similar to the clawhammer, for almost a year now and love it. It produces consistent results, wort with very little trub, fantastic efficiency (85-90%) and a stress free (tho long) brew day.

I brew mostly three gallon batches so the volume limitations are not an issue, but definitely could be if you want to brew larger batches of high abv beer. This would be true for both gluten free and traditional barley based beers. I would say 5 gallon batches @ 1065 OG are pushing the upper limits of the system.

I use mostly rice malt because I feel I get better recirculation due the larger hulls and less flour. Better recirculation leads to better efficiency and smaller grain bills. Most of my beers are about 70% rice malt, 20% millet malt and 10% buckwheat. Use of Termamyl also helps with liquefaction and gelatinization.

As with any 110 volt system, the boil is less than vigorous, but sufficient. So while it may not be for everyone, for me it was a game changer as far quality and consistentcy of beer produced.

 

[JMath]

Thanks for the input rjmaillie. I will keep my eye on The Grainfather. I will also see what people think of the Unibrau V3 when it ships. There are also rumors of another electric system coming out from SS Brewtech soon.

I use mostly rice malt because I feel I get better recirculation due the larger hulls and less flour. Better recirculation leads to better efficiency and smaller grain bills. Most of my beers are about 70% rice malt, 20% millet malt and 10% buckwheat. Use of Termamyl also helps with liquefaction and gelatinization.

Interesting logic. It seems others have steered toward using less rice, more millet, claiming the rice absorbs more liquid, so you can actually have a smaller grain bill. To each their own I suppose, at least we have options!

 

[glutarded-chris]

If the rice hulls absorb mash water early, then they don't hold back valuable converted sugars. Therefore, the only thing that would concern me with rice is that I can account for the absorption so that I add the correct amount of water to get the water-to-grist-ratio that I want for the mash and be able to predict the resulting extracted volume. Also, with rice, with the same weight of grain, you have more percentage of husk and therefore that reduces the amount of converted sugar you can get from a pound of rice grain compared to millet. I think the most important thing is being able to reasonably calculate/predict the volume and gravity of the collected wart. If I have to add a pound of extra grain, so be it!

The thing that really matters is the finished product and that you get what you want. The batch I brewed last weekend, I used more rice than I had used previously. It made a difference and I was not fully prepared for it. I think I will be focusing on the optimum mix of rice and millet in my future batches.

I am very interested in the fluid and heat absorption properties of rice compared to millet, buckwheat and barley. So far, for my millet and buckwheat grain bills, I have used the factors provided by Palmer for calculating the temperature of the strike water needed to hit the proper starting mash temp and the absorption rate to calculate extraction. Surprisingly, this has served me well even though Palmer's calculations were based on barley. Now as I add a larger percentage of rice, I have to question the accuracy of the calculation factors I am using. The GFHB article was not as helpful as I would have hoped. They give percentages of absorption, but how do you use that? The heat absorption and fluid absorption factors that Palmer provides gives you something that you can use.

 

[JMath]

You really ought to start your own blog/website Chris. Or at the very least, some kind of wiki page.

 

[wyowolf]

What do you think about the stainless steel mesh BIAB systems? To me those seem pretty similar to a bag, thus negating the need for rice hulls. But I'm not sure how much you're having to move/shake the bag around and whatnot.

For example, from Clawhammer:

I have a Colorado Brew System with this same type of basket. IMO its not good for efficiency... I believe what is happening is the wort just runs over the top of the bed and down the sides of the basket and not through the grain bed. I am going to try putting some AL foil around the insides to try to force it through the grain bed and not around it...

 

[glutarded-chris]

You really ought to start your own blog/website Chris. Or at the very least, some kind of wiki page.

Thanks JMath!

 

[skleice]

You really ought to start your own blog/website Chris. Or at the very least, some kind of wiki page.

+1 to this. I vote for a YouTube channel!

 

[JMath]

I went for it! On Black Friday I purchased a Grainfather ($200 off) and a Monster MM-2 (complete package $40 off). After two years of sorghum brewing and another two years out of the game completely, I am excited!

P.S. sorry for hijacking the thread skleice.

 

[skleice]

I went for it! On Black Friday I purchased a Grainfather ($200 off) and a Monster MM-2 (complete package $40 off). After two years of sorghum brewing and another two years out of the game completely, I am excited!

P.S. sorry for hijacking the thread skleice.

No problem. I've enjoyed all of the info as I may pursue electric or induction brewing myself. Let us know how the grainfather works for you. Glad to hear u got a good deal.

 

[skleice]

My first Grouse shipment arrives today! I ordered 2 of the GFHB recipe kits and already have my MM2 mill. I also decided to go with a 10 gallon kettle for larger batches (though j will brew smaller in the meantime).

I've been reading and rereading many posts. One thing I have not seen much of is talk of mashout? Do you guys mashout GF grains or is it not necessary?

 

[Legume]

I have never bothered to mash out.
It might be helpfull if your beers are over attenuating, but it is not absoloutly necessary.

 

[skleice]

I had my go at my first ever AG batch today. It was the Porter kit from GFHB reduced to 2.5 gallons. I decided to follow the directions for a single infusion mash to dip my toe in the AG pool. It was not so smooth, but educational.

1). 183 degree strike water was not hot enough.
2). 1 qt/lb ratio was very thick. Temps were all over the place around my cheap kettle. Had to keep my stovetop burner on low to sustain temp.
3). My preboil gravity was pretty low (I think due to poor sparge process). My grain was double crushed at .2 just before brewing. I ended up boiling off an extra gallon to get gravity up, which was successful. In reality, I need a bigger kettle to make AG work.

We'll see how it turns out. A lot of work for a little beer, but I'll be upgrading equipment soon.