No Sparge

[mrcej23]

Ok I know theres a ton of information out there on this topic. I've read the Brülosophy xBmt and listened to the podcast, but I wanted to hear what experiences you guys have had with this.

My thoughts are that I want as simple and repeatable a process as possible to reduce brew day times and room for error. Also as little clean up as possible. I know you can mess around with BIAB and squeeze the bag or do a "dunk" or "pour over" sparge as I've seen a few mention on here, but I don't really wanna mess with that because it seems messy and unpredictable. I'm talking about a simple, one step, full volume mash in a cooler. I know the main concern is a hit to efficiency, but I'm wondering how significant it would really be. Also, with calculators such as beersmith, couldn't you pretty easily just up your grain bill to make up for the losses?

There are a couple other benefits I can think of for the no sparge technique, one being that from a thermodynamic standpoint, the bulk capacity of the larger amount of water in the mash would actually hold temperature better. Also, I think Palmer is quoted saying that sparging can extract unwanted tannins.

Thoughts on all of this??

 

[corax]

I only do No-Sparge now. I consistently hit 70% system efficiency (compared to ~90% when I was batch-sparging).

In addition to simplicity, the benefits are improved malt flavor and much lower tannin extraction. Well worth the couple of extra dollars for malt, in my book.

And I'm gearing up to eventually do LoDO brewing, and AFAICT No-Sparge is an essential component of that.

 

[day_trippr]

Fwiw, no-sparge isn't an essential component, but it definitely makes a LoDO process much simpler.

Fly-sparging with O2-depleted liquor is nbd wrt O2 take-up, assuming a proper, sub-surface sparge liquor introduction (ideally, under the mash cap) via pre-purged lines and pump. And, in that regard, batch sparging is actually more challenging as stirring the mash is pretty much a do-not-do thing wrt LoDO brewing...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

sparging can extract unwanted tannins.

Only at high temperature (e.g. >170°F) and high mash pH (above appropriate range).

 

[brews-ninja]

Efficiency is the main snag. The grain absorbs a part of the wort approximatly equal to the mass of the grain. Suppose we have 1 to 3 grain to water. Third part of the wort we lose in the grain. If you are ready to sacrifice 33% of the effectiveness in order to avoid the possible extraction of tannins - this is your choice. My opinion is not to rush to extremes and find your optimum between taste and efficiency

 

[maltman]

On the homebrew scale, I think it's a great idea. What the cost of scaling up the grain bill for 10 gallons? $10 maybe? I'm still sparging but seriously considering no sparge!

 

[doug293cz]

The difference between no-sparge and an equal runoff volume single batch sparge is about 8 - 9 percentage points of lauter efficiency. Yes you can just input your lower efficiency into BeerSmith (or any other software) to figure out how much extra grain you need.

The chart below compares no-spage, single batch sparge, double batch sparge, and triple batch sparge lauter efficiency for different grain weight to pre-boil volume ratios. For a cooler mash tun, look at the solid lines (the dashed lines are for a particular level of squeezing.)

Brew on

 

[ba-brewer]

I heat mash and sparge separately when I fly or batch sparge, so it takes a bit longer to heat up a full volume no sparge batch to mash-in temp, not sure about time to get to boil I think it is about the same.

Beersmith does not work well for me when I do no sparge, it always predicts a higher starting gravity so I have to use a spreadsheet to calculate starting gravity. I think it does not take into account the trapped sugars @brews-ninja mentioned.

edit: Disregard the beersmith comment, cockpit error.

 

[doug293cz]

I heat mash and sparge separately when I fly or batch sparge, so it takes a bit longer to heat up a full volume no sparge batch to mash-in temp, not sure about time to get to boil I think it is about the same.

Beersmith does not work well for me when I do no sparge, it always predicts a higher starting gravity so I have to use a spreadsheet to calculate starting gravity. I think it does not take into account the trapped sugars @brews-ninja mentioned.

BeerSmith does not actually simulate the lauter process to predict lauter efficiency (which can be done for no-sparge and batch sparge, but not for fly sparge.) So, it depends on your input of BrewHouse efficiency, along with all your loss volumes in your equipment profile to calculate the predicted mash efficiency (which is lauter efficiency times conversion efficiency.) If you don't adjust the BH efficiency you input for no-sparge, then BS won't give you good OG estimates, because your mash efficiency will be lower than for a sparge process, but BS doesn't account for that.

Brew on

 

[RPh_Guy]

The difference between no-sparge and an equal runoff volume single batch sparge is about 8 - 9 percentage points of lauter efficiency.

Thanks for the graph! Looks like your data, yes? Was that at a constant crush size?

@ba-brewer does beersmith let you enter multiple equipment profiles?
On brewersfriend I have separate profiles for my 3-vessel and BIAB which I run full volume no sparge (with different brewhouse efficiency for each).

 

[mrcej23]

View attachment 583134

Brew on

How does Lauter efficiency and mach efficiency relate to BH efficiency? Are there formulas to get between them or are there too many unknowns?

 

[ba-brewer]

BeerSmith does not actually simulate the lauter process to predict lauter efficiency (which can be done for no-sparge and batch sparge, but not for fly sparge.) So, it depends on your input of BrewHouse efficiency, along with all your loss volumes in your equipment profile to calculate the predicted mash efficiency (which is lauter efficiency times conversion efficiency.) If you don't adjust the BH efficiency you input for no-sparge, then BS won't give you good OG estimates, because your mash efficiency will be lower than for a sparge process, but BS doesn't account for that.

Brew on

I dont do a lot of no sparge so it is probably a personal problem but Beersmith does a good job for me with fly sparge and batch sparge it is just no sparge that seem off even with an adjusted BHE.

I forget/forget every thing is based off of BHE in beersmith, my previous comment about the "trapped sugars" came from observing that you get the same preboil gravity if you adjust mash water additions from multiple sparges to a single no sparge in the mash tab without changing BHE. Thanks @doug293cz

Thanks for the graph! Looks like your data, yes? Was that at a constant crush size?

@ba-brewer does beersmith let you enter multiple equipment profiles?
On brewersfriend I have separate profiles for my 3-vessel and BIAB which I run full volume no sparge (with different brewhouse efficiency for each).

@RPh_Guy Yes you can create different profiles for equipment and mash types.

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks for the graph! Looks like your data, yes? Was that at a constant crush size?

@ba-brewer does beersmith let you enter multiple equipment profiles?
On brewersfriend I have separate profiles for my 3-vessel and BIAB which I run full volume no sparge (with different brewhouse efficiency for each).

Crush primarily affects conversion efficiency (the percentage of the max potential sugar in the grain that you actually create in the mash.) The charts are for lauter efficiency (the percentage of the sugar created in the mash actually makes it into your boil kettle.) Mash efficiency is the percentage of the max potential sugar that ends up in your boil kettle. Thus mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. Lauter efficiency is almost independent of conversion efficiency (turns out that lauter efficiency goes up very slightly when conversion efficiency goes down.) The charts are for lauter efficiency assuming 100% conversion efficiency, and represent the maximum possible mash efficiency for the given conditions.

The charts are from calculations done with a spreadsheet that I created. You can find a version of the spreadsheet here.

Yes, BeerSmith allows you to have as many equipment profiles as you want.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

How does Lauter efficiency and mach efficiency relate to BH efficiency? Are there formulas to get between them or are there too many unknowns?

BrewHouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Volume in Fermenter / Post-Boil Volume

Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency

so:

BrewHouse Eff = Conversion Eff * Lauter Eff * Vol in Fermenter / Post-Boil Vol

The above equations assume you lost no volume other than from evaporation during boil, and you added no sugars during the boil.

Brew on

 

[LittleRiver]

...want as simple and repeatable a process as possible to reduce brew day times... as little clean up as possible...

Those are some of the reasons I use a single vessel BIAB rig. Other reasons are that it makes great beer, and the elegant simplicity of it just appeals to me.

I grind at .025". I don't have to worry about stuck sparges because I don't sparge. I don't recirculate. I never have wort pump/controller issues, because I don't use them. I insulate the kettle during the mash. During the warm months it will stay within 1 degree for the whole hour.

When the mash has ended I hoist the bag, immediately fire the burner, and let gravity drain the bag while the wort comes to a boil (and during the boil, it will drip for half an hour or more). I don't do a mashout, it's not needed. I don't squeeze the bag.

My brew days are under 4 hours. That includes everything from starting to fill the kettle to the end of cleanup, nothing is prepped the day before. I do a full hour mash and a full hour boil. Cleanup is a breeze, since there's so little to clean.

... couldn't you pretty easily just up your grain bill to make up for the losses?

I consistently hit or exceed the ABV target of recipes. If I wanted to go bigger I could sparge, but normally I don't. There is certainly never a need for me to increase a grain bill. If you feel you need to do that, your crush is probably too coarse.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Do the math in Palmers book, I put it into excel. I usually have to add about 20% more grain, which is about $3 per 10 pounds of grain. Mash in a cooler, I use a brew bag in a cooler, then let it drain, it don't get easier than that. Like LittleRiver, it's about a 4 hour brew day.

You can also step mash. I heat water to about 25 degrees above first mash temp then add and stir, keeping an eye until 1st temp is reached. Let rest, then heat water, using Palmers calculations and add until I reach saccharification rest temp. I let it mash and then use remaining water for a mash out.