No Oxyclean in China...

[FatDragon]

I've been brewing in China for just a hair over two years, but the question of equipment cleaning has been an issue that whole time. I sanitize with medical iodophor and might pick up some Starsan from one of the ever-increasing onine homebrew shops that specialize in imported supplies, so that end is fairly well covered. On the cleaning side, though, I'm a little more lost. PBW is prohibitively expensive here. The Oxyclean clones I've seen here seem to be mixed with detergents I'd rather keep away from my plastic. The caustic soda my brewpub buddy gave me scares the bejeezus out of me as I'm a bit shy of using a product that is used to dissolve tissue, especially at high temperatures where I'm potentially going to inhale the steam from it. Bleach is available but would be a pain in the butt to clean. A guy in Shanghai sells Aseptox (I think he says it's a one-step cleaner), but it's pretty pricey.

So, wall of text over, what is my best bet for cleaning equipment - primarily plastic fermenters and bottles? Maybe something like the pure chemical version of Oxyclean or PBW where I could get the chemical components cheaply and mix them myself? Thanks in advance!

 

[FatDragon]

How about pure sodium percarbonate? I can get it pretty cheaply from chemical supply places. Will that do the trick on its own? Also, since I'm searching in a foreign language that I'm not 100% fluent in, should I be scared off by the fact that most of the shops are selling it as an oxygen booster for fish tanks?

 

[imasickboy]

I'm pretty sure sodium percarbonate is exactly what oxyclean is all about. I may be mistaken, however.

 

[FatDragon]

I'm pretty sure sodium percarbonate is exactly what oxyclean is all about. I may be mistaken, however.

Yeah, but it's got other stuff as well and I was worried that it might not be good enough on its own; after all, Oxyclean isn't pure sodium percarbonate. A bit of homework yesterday revealed that the pure stuff should be good. Now I'm trying to find a reliable source. The places that sell it as a fish tank additive aren't listing chemical formulae or purity levels, and most of them use multiple names that refer to different chemicals. Only one source I can track down on Taobao, China's most popular online marketplace, sells what they claim to be pure sodium percarbonate, and it's one of those listings that looks sketchy for lack of information, strange shipping costs, and lack of verified purchases. An online industrial marketplace reveals some questionable-looking sources that will sell 25 kg sacks for a reasonable price, but that's a lot of chemical and the more legitimate-looking sellers sell in increments of metric tons, so I'm skeptical of those as well.

Some brew friends suggested I just buy a big sack of baking soda and use that. Seems like it wouldn't work nearly as well.

So, track down a reliable source for Sodium Percarbonate, buy baking soda, or something else?

 

[RodrigoEick]

I've been brewing in China for just a hair over two years, but the question of equipment cleaning has been an issue that whole time. I sanitize with medical iodophor and might pick up some Starsan from one of the ever-increasing onine homebrew shops that specialize in imported supplies, so that end is fairly well covered. On the cleaning side, though, I'm a little more lost. PBW is prohibitively expensive here. The Oxyclean clones I've seen here seem to be mixed with detergents I'd rather keep away from my plastic. The caustic soda my brewpub buddy gave me scares the bejeezus out of me as I'm a bit shy of using a product that is used to dissolve tissue, especially at high temperatures where I'm potentially going to inhale the steam from it. Bleach is available but would be a pain in the butt to clean. A guy in Shanghai sells Aseptox (I think he says it's a one-step cleaner), but it's pretty pricey.

So, wall of text over, what is my best bet for cleaning equipment - primarily plastic fermenters and bottles? Maybe something like the pure chemical version of Oxyclean or PBW where I could get the chemical components cheaply and mix them myself? Thanks in advance!

Nice to hear someone brewing in China! I live in Dongguan, near Guangzhou

Let me know if that sodium percarbonate works for you.

I still have the PBW that I bougth half year ago when I started brewing. I use very little though

Cheers

 

[FatDragon]

Nice to hear someone brewing in China! I live in Dongguan, near Guangzhou

Let me know if that sodium percarbonate works for you.

I still have the PBW that I bougth half year ago when I started brewing. I use very little though

Cheers

Cheers!

I've seen recipes for homemade PBW and they're mostly Sodium Percarbonate, Sodium Carbonate (seems optional to cut the percarbonate), and Sodium Metabisilicate, with two other small additions. If the 25 kilo sack of Sodium Percarbonate (for about 70 kuai plus shipping) is legit, I've also seen a legit chemical place on Taobao with 25 kilo sacks of the metabisilicate for 75 kuai plus shipping. I'd never need that much for personal brewing use, but if I dabble in a nanobrewery as I've considered doing, I might be making my own PBW for a few kuai per kilo. For now, though, I'm just trying to get started with a basic level of proper cleaning so I can get out of this cycle of infected beers I got stuck in early this year.

 

[imasickboy]

Okay, I've done a bit of poking around, and two different brands of oxy cleaner in my house have the same two ingredients: sodium carbonate, and sodium percarbonate. So, to make this useful to you...

• Sodium carbonate is sold in the US, (and who knows where else), most commonly as Arm and Hammer Washing Soda. Looks like a giant box of baking soda. My wife and I use it to make our own laundry detergent. We can buy it in the grocery store, or Walmart. Very easy to find in the laundry aisle.
  
• Sodium percarbonate is made by crystallizing a mixture of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide.

If I were you, and was able to find sodium carbonate easily, I would mix water, sodium carbonate, and hydrogen peroxide, and clean/soak with that.

Hopefully this info helps you.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Percarb is the bizness, if you track some down though, be aware that it's not actually "one step" sanitizer and you should always rinse with acidulated water (usually citric, since it's cheap) and clean water before using.

 

[FatDragon]

Okay, I've done a bit of poking around, and two different brands of oxy cleaner in my house have the same two ingredients: sodium carbonate, and sodium percarbonate. So, to make this useful to you...

• Sodium carbonate is sold in the US, (and who knows where else), most commonly as Arm and Hammer Washing Soda. Looks like a giant box of baking soda. My wife and I use it to make our own laundry detergent. We can buy it in the grocery store, or Walmart. Very easy to find in the laundry aisle.
  
• Sodium percarbonate is made by crystallizing a mixture of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide.

If I were you, and was able to find sodium carbonate easily, I would mix water, sodium carbonate, and hydrogen peroxide, and clean/soak with that.

Hopefully this info helps you.

You know what? That might be the easiest solution. I'll need to see the best way to source the H2O2 (Hydrogen peroxide), but both it and Sodium Carbonate are readily available. Any idea of ratios? If I want 30%+ concentrated H2O2 it's only available in 25L jugs as far as I can tell (though I can get a jug shipped for only $23), while the 3% drug store stuff they sell in smaller bottles actually costs more per liter even though it's diluted 10x. If I'll need a lot of peroxide I'll buy the jug, but if a liter of 3% will last me a dozen brews, I see no reason for the bulk purchase...

I'm also a little bit curious about why they use sodium carb and percarb in Oxy cleaners - percarb breaks down to sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide so it seems like adding pure sodium carbonate would be redundant.

Percarb is the bizness, if you track some down though, be aware that it's not actually "one step" sanitizer and you should always rinse with acidulated water (usually citric, since it's cheap) and clean water before using.

So should I toss a tablespoon of citric acid in the first rinse, then? I had been planning on using the percarb to wash and still using iodophor to sanitize, since I've still got a couple $1.50 half liter bottles of the stuff.

EDIT: Searching for hydrogen peroxide, I came across a listing for "hydrogen peroxide powder" for cleaning medical equipment, being sold in half kilo increments for a reasonable price. It gives no chemical information and doesn't say anything about sodium percarbonate in the listing, but is it possible that's what they're selling? Is there such thing as powdered hydrogen peroxide?

 

[madscientist451]

I use PBW because it works pretty good cleaning ferment crud out of my glass carboys.
But your really don't need fancy cleaners if you are using buckets or cleaning your brew kettle and can reach inside to wipe the gunk off. Any old dish detergent is fine as long as you can rinse it good.
People brewed and fermented wine for thousands of years without PBW or any sanitizer at all. So you really don't need PBW it just is nice to have and cleans hard to reach areas.
However I am a fan of star-san and use it religiously.
Note if you use PBW, you can re use if several times, you don't have to dump it after cleaning a carboy. I keep extra buckets around always have some PBW and star-san available. When I think the PBW has been used enough, I dump it in the toilet, it does a great job of cleaning that. Cheers!

 

[DU99]

60% Sodium Percarbonate
30% Sodium Metasilicate
10% Disodium Phosphate

 

[FatDragon]

I use PBW because it works pretty good cleaning ferment crud out of my glass carboys.
But your really don't need fancy cleaners if you are using buckets or cleaning your brew kettle and can reach inside to wipe the gunk off. Any old dish detergent is fine as long as you can rinse it good.
People brewed and fermented wine for thousands of years without PBW or any sanitizer at all. So you really don't need PBW it just is nice to have and cleans hard to reach areas.
However I am a fan of star-san and use it religiously.
Note if you use PBW, you can re use if several times, you don't have to dump it after cleaning a carboy. I keep extra buckets around always have some PBW and star-san available. When I think the PBW has been used enough, I dump it in the toilet, it does a great job of cleaning that. Cheers!

I know people have been brewing for thousands of years without chemical cleaners, but I've been brewing for two years without them and my rate of infected brews has been disheartening, especially lately. Glad to know that PBW is reusable - do you know if Percarbonate is the same way, or does it lose its effectiveness as the oxygen comes out of solution?

60% Sodium Percarbonate
30% Sodium Metasilicate
10% Disodium Phosphate

Hmm - looks promising. This is homebrew PBW, right? The powdered hydrogen peroxide guy turns out to be selling for a factory, and he can sell me percarbonate in increments as low as one kilo, though it costs about as much to buy ten single kilos as it does to buy a 25kg bucket of the stuff so I might buy the big one anyway... Disodium Phosphate appears to be cheaply available. Now if I can translate and track down some sodium metasilicate...

 

[soccerdad]

An option might be to look at some of the 'big box' or supercenter type stores that they say are starting to operate in China .. supposedly Lotus is one and Carrefour another although the sign outside the store may be entirely different. Check in the laundry are for 'booster type products that are fee and clear of scents and perfumes and are mostly (or all) sodium percarbonate. For sodium metasilicate, look for TSP 90 at hardware stores or in hardware sections.

 

[DarkStarNJ]

Now if I can translate and track down some sodium metasilicate...

In U.S. this can be found in "Phosphate Free" TSP (Tri-Sodium Phosphate)

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

You know what? That might be the easiest solution. I'll need to see the best way to source the H2O2 (Hydrogen peroxide), but both it and Sodium Carbonate are readily available. Any idea of ratios? If I want 30%+ concentrated H2O2 it's only available in 25L jugs as far as I can tell (though I can get a jug shipped for only $23), while the 3% drug store stuff they sell in smaller bottles actually costs more per liter even though it's diluted 10x. If I'll need a lot of peroxide I'll buy the jug, but if a liter of 3% will last me a dozen brews, I see no reason for the bulk purchase...

I'm also a little bit curious about why they use sodium carb and percarb in Oxy cleaners - percarb breaks down to sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide so it seems like adding pure sodium carbonate would be redundant.



So should I toss a tablespoon of citric acid in the first rinse, then? I had been planning on using the percarb to wash and still using iodophor to sanitize, since I've still got a couple $1.50 half liter bottles of the stuff.

EDIT: Searching for hydrogen peroxide, I came across a listing for "hydrogen peroxide powder" for cleaning medical equipment, being sold in half kilo increments for a reasonable price. It gives no chemical information and doesn't say anything about sodium percarbonate in the listing, but is it possible that's what they're selling? Is there such thing as powdered hydrogen peroxide?

The only time I use it as a neutralizing wash it's typically 1cup/5 gallons, but I have REALLY hard water. Pretty much the idea is to acid wash anything the percarb is on to neutralize it, which can be as weak as anything at or below 5pH. it's not something to fret over, but it is very necessary if you want to not have sodium percarbonate affecting you wine/beer etc.

 

[GQT]

What stops you from going for peracetic acid? Dirt cheap. Package is not as handy to use as StarSan and it doesn't foam but for many applications we don't need foam at all (pipes-n-pumps for example).
It is a no-rinse solution and degrades in beer without a trace.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=24262888487
I still keep some StarSan at hand for its foamy qualities but I don't use it much.

 

[FatDragon]

What stops you from going for peracetic acid? Dirt cheap. Package is not as handy to use as StarSan and it doesn't foam but for many applications we don't need foam at all (pipes-n-pumps for example).
It is a no-rinse solution and degrades in beer without a trace.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=24262888487
I still keep some StarSan at hand for its foamy qualities but I don't use it much.

I didn't even know that was a thing, but it sounds promising. What kind of ratio do you use with this stuff for no-rinse sanitation? Is it stable in solution or one-and-done like iodophor. I confess I have never even used StarSan; once the small bottle of IoStar that came with my initial brew kit ran dry, I started using medical iodophor at something like 8 RMB for a 500mL bottle. Buying StarSan at the prices it commands here isn't very appealing when the wife sees the bill, and while I know it's reusable, maintaining a bucket of sanitizer is something I have by-and-large felt like I could do without thus far, though it's been in the back of my mind anyway because the stuff has so many fervent devotees.

 

[GQT]

I didn't even know that was a thing, but it sounds promising.

Too long to tell in a few words but google it (I expect you to have some sort of vpn to get you outside the firewall) and you will be pleasantly surprised how good this stuff is. The solution I linked you to has to be mixed together and diluted in, errrr... don't remember what proportion, but it is shown on the labels. I believe it is pretty much generic, so any brand named sterilizer based on peracetic acid works the same way, hence you can download any user's manual and just use this Chinese stuff accordingly. It is a mighty stuff, not for kids, very - I mean, very - nasty for skin, but very effective against beer contaminants.
It is a use once and throw out solution (this is why it comes in separate bottles), but at this price would you care?
Iodine is good but it paints hoses brown, and it is the only reason I don't use it.
It is handy to have StarSan available, even it is prohibitively dear here. StarSan is the only sterilizer you can use in spray form, but then again one bottle will last for well over a year I believe.
I also use dishwashing liquid at nearly boiling temps and hot steam out of pressure cooker.