New Glarus Wisconsin Belgian Red Clone #1

[Renegades_Brew]

Wisconsin Belgian Red Clone

1 lb red wheat
1 lb pale malt. Two row. 1.8L
4 oz acidulated
6.6 lbs LME Bavarian wheat

1 oz. Hallertauer (60 min.)
1 oz. Hallertauer (20 min.)

25 lbs Montmorency Cherries added at beginning of secondary.
50 Med. Toast French Oak Cubes 30 days before end of secondary.

Mash grain at 150 for 60 minutes.


Screwed up the main notes on the first post...

 

[ja09]

Awesome. I've been wanting to attempt this as well. I'm thinking about using 100% Montmorency juice, like Trader Joe's Tart Cherry Juice, since I probably don't have access to fresh cherries this year.

What yeast are you using? Are you planning on pasteurizing the cherries? Let us know how this turns out!

 

[Renegades_Brew]

On the recipes page the yeast is labeled. Don't know why it didn't transfer.

Wyeast 3278

And the cherries I got are frozen. Still 360 days from secondary. Just figured needed to go significantly different than other clones from reading all the interviews. So going more like a wine.

 

[zombiefreak]

Renegades, how'd this turn out for you?

Could you clarify your fermentation schedule for me. How long in Primary? How long in Secondary? From your above post did you leave this on the primary for a year? You noted 360 days from secondary.

Thanks

 

[Renegades_Brew]

Yes, it sat in the primary for 1 year. I only recently moved this to secondary.

However I did devate from the original plan slightly by using cherry juice concentrate in place of cherries.

So currently it is sitting in the secondary and I will be advancing the secondary schedule a little bit to compensate.

Tasting notes after transferring to secondary with juice show this recipe as spot on as I could have hoped for.

I might be looking towards bottling around mid january at this point since I don't need the time for the cherries to sit.

 

[kegtoe]

Any ideas how to keep the sweetness? I am looking at brewing some thing similar tomorrow. Been researching for a few weeks. Not much our there for recipes. I measured the gravity on a bottle form this year and it came out at 1054. You think it's all "backsweetened" Doing two actual fementations with two different yeasts, skipping the oak, using some roasted barly and some 40L along with some acidulated. ja09, have you done this yet?

 

[ja09]

1.054!? Wow. Knew it was sweet but I would have guessed high 20s low 30s! No I haven't tried it yet but still want to. Have 10lbs of door county cherries vacuum sealed in the freezer.

Now I'm really curious what oud bruin finishes at. Also really sweet and I thought I read it's their base beer or very similar. I'll test one soon, along with a serendipity I have.

 

[kegtoe]

Serendipity is nice too

 

[Renegades_Brew]

1.054? Did you make sure it was completely flat and there was no carbonation at all? This can have a major effect on the reading.

 

[ja09]

Wondering the same, along with temperature.

When I've done readings in the past (all with big stouts), carbonation didn't make much of a difference, only about 2 points from the day I poured till the next day. Not sure about a highly carbed one like this though. 1.054 doesn't seem right.

 

[kegtoe]

I measured at room temp an hour or so after opening. But now you have me doing some scientific research.

 

[kegtoe]

1.044 no change the last 18 hours

 

[Renegades_Brew]

Still too early to be flat. What is the ambient temp where the sample is being kept?

 

[kegtoe]

Still too early to be flat. What is the ambient temp where the sample is being kept?

Measured at 67 degrees. Pored into a wide shallow container (lots of surface area). "degassed" several times last night. Even poured back and forth to release the CO2. Seemed pretty flat this am but waited an additional 12 hours. Flat as a pancake tonight.

It was interesting how the flavor changed. It didn't seem as "heavy" seemed lighter and way more aromatic. Almost "perfumy" when tasting.

If you don't believe me do it yourself and post your results!

 

[Renegades_Brew]

Just being sure it was completely degassed.

Will be bottling mine within the next couple weeks.

 

[ja09]

Looks like serendipity finishes around 1.038. Kinda shocked, really didn't think these would be so high. Just checked a bottle that's over a year old and appears to have little to no sediment. I assumed these were bottle conditioned, but maybe they're pasteurized and force carbed..? Anyone know?

View attachment 1420608347270.jpg

View attachment 1420608360671.jpg

 

[Renegades_Brew]

With gravities that high I can only assume they stop fermentation and back sweeten. Then force carb. Never noticed any sediment in the bottles before either.

 

[kegtoe]

They use flash pasteurization. Not sure if they stop fermentation really early, but my guess us they do it to be able to backsweaten without another fermentation. I'm curious what they back sweeten with - juice, sugar, wine conditioner, cherries???

 

[Renegades_Brew]

Based on the recent findings. Pairing with previous research. Here is my conclusion.

Daniel Carey mentioned that his process for the belgian red resembled wine making more than beer making. My guess is that they stop fermentation before the lagering process with the cherries. Since cherries have a lot of sugars to them this could account for the significant hike in finished gravity.

Based on this I am going to probably sanitize a carboy tonight and add things to stop the little bit of fermentation that is taking place in my secondary. Probably keg later this week.

 

[kegtoe]

Most people experienced in wine making ferment dry, kill yeast, then sweeten to taste. Same seems to go with cider making. I am by no means an expert but trying to research as much as possible...

 

[kegtoe]

Here is mine, done after 3 months. It seems that aging, cold crashing has really taken a lot of the cherry flavor out. I also don't have much tartness. Maybe more acidic malt and an earlier addition of lacto. Kmeta and sorbate added today. Will sweeten this weekend and force carb in keg. Love the color and clarity though!! Ja09, Renagades_brew, we should keep working on this. Passing samples among the three of us sharing ideas, etc.,

 

[Renegades_Brew]

I am working on kicking a keg right now in my kegerator so I can put mine on tap.

When did you add the cherries or cherry concentrate? I did that all in secondary after 1 year in primary. I then let it ride for two months with the lacto infection. I've stopped the fermentation since and its sitting in a carboy just waiting for a keg now.

The flavor is amazing in mine, I am pretty sure once I get it carbed up I am pretty close.

 

[ja09]

Ja09, Renagades_brew, we should keep working on this. Passing samples among the three of us sharing ideas, etc.,

I'd be happy to share some, but I haven't started yet! I have a couple other sours aging on cherries at the moment, along with a few other goodies that I'd be happy to share. I would be really interested in trying both of yours.

Daniel Carey mentioned that his process for the belgian red resembled wine making more than beer making. My guess is that they stop fermentation before the lagering process with the cherries. Since cherries have a lot of sugars to them this could account for the significant hike in finished gravity.

I could be totally wrong here, but I'm thinking it's the other way around. Wondering if they press & ferment the cherries dry, very similar to a winemaking process, then blend the fermented cherry juice with a base beer that finishes really high. When I sample the real thing, it seems to be a malt sweetness that I'm tasting, especially when it warms. Fermenting the cherries dry would also account for some of the tartness, especially if they use a wild yeast and/or bacteria.

 

[Renegades_Brew]

Daniel Carey also has said the cherries are added after primary fermentation and are lagered in secondary.

 

[ja09]

Daniel Carey also has said the cherries are added after primary fermentation and are lagered in secondary.

That's part of what I was referring to. I think they might ferment the cherry juice dry, blend it after the base beer is fermented, then the lagering process.

 

[Renegades_Brew]

The cherry juice has a very high sugar content. fermenting both dry and mixing sounds like it would have a much dryer and require much more backsweetening.

 

[Renegades_Brew]

So I finally tapped the keg of this clone this past weekend for new years eve. Of course it would figure that my CO2 tank kicked sometime after carbonation happened so there wasn't much to be tested.

What was tested was really a lot closer than I was expecting. I have to do a side by side comparison still but that should come this weekend if I am lucky to get a new tank (HBS was out of CO2 this weekend).

 

[ja09]

Would love to hear some tasting notes and side by side pics.

I never got around to attempting a clone but thinking of trying a quick version with lactic acid and backsweetning with montmercy juice in the keg. Had very good luck with this method with a couple fruited goses.

 

[Schumed]

On the recipes page the yeast is labeled. Don't know why it didn't transfer.

Wyeast 3278

And the cherries I got are frozen. Still 360 days from secondary. Just figured needed to go significantly different than other clones from reading all the interviews. So going more like a wine.

There is nothing sour about belgian red I would go a clean yeast since this beer is all about the cherries...Ive attempted this with cherry juice in secondary came close...Ive since learned with my raspberry tart clone add extract at kegging to get that over the top fruit flavor

 

[ja09]

There is nothing sour about belgian red I would go a clean yeast since this beer is all about the cherries...Ive attempted this with cherry juice in secondary came close...Ive since learned with my raspberry tart clone add extract at kegging to get that over the top fruit flavor

The base beer is lambic-style aged up to a year in their wood foeders, so a true clone attempt would contain brett and bacteria. Strip away all the cherry sweetness and it would be a little sour, and it does have some tart-ness out of the bottle. I agree though, backsweetning with a high quality unfermented cherry juice could achieve a similar flavor profile with clean yeast. Might want to add a little lactic acid as well.