New Danstar Belle Saison Dry Yeast?

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Just ordered my first pack of this yeast and want to try to make some bigger beers with more abv. I'll use it first on an IPA and see what happens.

let us know how it goes. not sure this is the best yeast for a belgo-IPA: it attenuate a lot (too much) so there is nothing to offset the bitterness (maybe aim for fewer IBUs that you might normally with an IPA), lots of phenolics that might not play nice with hops, etc. should be an interesting experiment.
 
The highest I have bittered with this yeast is around 35 IBU. That was really pushing it. It has a nice assertive bitterness bordering on harsh.

You might be alright if you don't use simple sugars in the recipe and mash higher than you normally would for this style.

Either way, it sounds interesting. I would also like to know how this comes out.
 
The highest I have bittered with this yeast is around 35 IBU. That was really pushing it. It has a nice assertive bitterness bordering on harsh.

You might be alright if you don't use simple sugars in the recipe and mash higher than you normally would for this style.

Either way, it sounds interesting. I would also like to know how this comes out.


It certainly makes sense to mash higher to prevent too low of a final gravity. Great tip, and I will be certain to announce my results. It may be a few weeks off as my next brew will be a California common.


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35 was pushing it for me, too, but it was dry. I don't think I'd make an IPA with this. Maybe a 50/50 blend of this and chico or nottingham or something similar, fermented cold. All bittering from later hops.

I think a Belgian IPA is better off resembling a hoppy tripel than a saison, though.
 
I used Safbrew T-58 for my Belgian IPA and was really pleased with it. I'd echo the thought above that Belle Saison might not be the best for a Belgian IPA.
 
I used Safbrew T-58 for my Belgian IPA and was really pleased with it. I'd echo the thought above that Belle Saison might not be the best for a Belgian IPA.

I don't see the issue. If you bitter it to 70 IBU, treating it like a normal ale yeast that attenuated 70-75%, then that will be a horrid pile of ****. But if you take into account the finishing gravity, bitter accordingly you'll end up with a beer that tastes every bit as bitter with far less actual bittering in the kettle. The late additions need only minor modifications, if any at all so long as your bittering additions are appropriate.
 
I don't see the issue. If you bitter it to 70 IBU, treating it like a normal ale yeast that attenuated 70-75%, then that will be a horrid pile of ****. But if you take into account the finishing gravity, bitter accordingly you'll end up with a beer that tastes every bit as bitter with far less actual bittering in the kettle. The late additions need only minor modifications, if any at all so long as your bittering additions are appropriate.
there's more to a good IPA than bitterness vs. residual sweetness. take a beer, reduce it's residual sweetness by 50% and it's bitterness by 50%... you won't have the same beer.

plus, belgian yeasts kick off esters and phenols that don't all play nice with high amounts of hops. can become a jumbled mess. hence why IPAs use a generally neutral yeast, or at least something more neutral than a saison yeast.
 
I don't see the issue. If you bitter it to 70 IBU, treating it like a normal ale yeast that attenuated 70-75%, then that will be a horrid pile of ****. But if you take into account the finishing gravity, bitter accordingly you'll end up with a beer that tastes every bit as bitter with far less actual bittering in the kettle. The late additions need only minor modifications, if any at all so long as your bittering additions are appropriate.

Hi,
I agree with you that balancing this way would be better than using this yeast as it had a normal attenuation. Anyway, a belgian very dry beer that is balanced to be bitter isn't a belgian IPA, it's just a belgian bitter very dry beer :)
If you want to make a belgian IPA, you are simply aiming at something different, not just to something that has a similar ratio of sugars left / IBUs.

Cheers from Italy! :mug:
Piteko
 
Is cell count affects this yeast's ester production?

I brew 2.5gal batches but i like to pitch the whole packet into them.
Will the beer be too clean if i pitch the whole packet? (i plan to ferment it pretty warm, up to 90F)
 
Just don't rehydrate your yeast. Pitching dry yeast directly onto the wort reportedly loses about 50% viability. Obviously, I recommend checking out a yeast calculator and then weighing your yeast but, the previous way will sort of work. Also, you don't have to use the entire packet.

And, yes, pitching rate will affect ester production. No, it will not be too clean if you over pitch.
 
Just don't rehydrate your yeast. Pitching dry yeast directly onto the wort reportedly loses about 50% viability. Obviously, I recommend checking out a yeast calculator and then weighing your yeast but, the previous way will sort of work. Also, you don't have to use the entire packet.

And, yes, pitching rate will affect ester production. No, it will not be too clean if you over pitch.

Can you review that statement? It sounds counterproductive killing off half the yeast population intentionally.

You can re-hydrate half a sachet and pitch that. Then store the second half taped down, in a ziplock baggie, in the freezer and use within a few weeks or months. Just keep things well sanitized of course.
 
And, yes, pitching rate will affect ester production. No, it will not be too clean if you over pitch.
"too clean" is subjective. it will be cleaner, since many flavors are produced during the reproductive phase. pitching more yeast = less growth = less flavor compounds. how much less depends on how big the over-pitch is. even if your pitch twice as much as recommended, there will still be some growth.

Then store the second half taped down, in a ziplock baggie, in the freezer

freezer? i thought the fridge was best.
 
freezer? i thought the fridge was best.

Dry yeast should be pretty resistant to ice damage and colder temps will keep metabolic activity down, so there's at least a good argument for the freezer. I imagine you could find people to come down on either side of that debate.
 
Dry yeast should be pretty resistant to ice damage and colder temps will keep metabolic activity down, so there's at least a good argument for the freezer. I imagine you could find people to come down on either side of that debate.


I ran across this a few days ago. Apparently it is okay and advantageous to freeze dry yeast: http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/freezing-dry-yeast


Edit: they do add the caveat that the package of yeast should be still vacuum sealed when freezing.
 
It is counterproductive and a waste but, Glue said he pitches a full sachet each time. He wasn't asking about altering his pitch just what happens when he does pitch a full pack.

Should he change his pitch rate? Probably.
 
[...] freezer? i thought the fridge was best.

For 30 years I've been storing dry yeast in the freezer, bread yeast and later beer yeasts. After moving, I found a sachet of US-05 in my freezer that was 3 years past it's use by date. For all security I made a starter with it. After proper re-hydration and a perhaps slow beginning, it blew out the top the next day. It smelled great, pitched it, and no problems whatsoever. I've use it 2x since.

Dry bread yeast can be stored in the freezer for years. $4.50 for a 2 pound pack at Sam's Club. Beats the paltry 1/4oz $$$ envelopes at the supermarket. Now you can finally put enough yeast in your pizza dough. :D
 
For 30 years I've been storing dry yeast in the freezer, bread yeast and later beer yeasts. After moving, I found a sachet of US-05 in my freezer that was 3 years past it's use by date. For all security I made a starter with it. After proper re-hydration and a perhaps slow beginning, it blew out the top the next day. It smelled great, pitched it, and no problems whatsoever. I've use it 2x since.

Dry bread yeast can be stored in the freezer for years. $4.50 for a 2 pound pack at Sam's Club. Beats the paltry 1/4oz $$$ envelopes at the supermarket. Now you can finally put enough yeast in your pizza dough. :D
I routinely freeze my sourdough starters, sometimes for months at a time, when I'm not going to be home for a while. They fire right up when they're thawed.

As a matter of fact, some of the more interesting fireworks from my wife were set off when she found one of my starters in the freezer. Silly woman... just because it was in a Cool Whip tub, she assumed it was Cool Whip. :p

She moved it to the other side of the fridge to thaw, and a couple of days later found out it had blown its lid off and taken over the whole space. It still isn't safe to mention that episode, because she's convinced it was 100% my fault.

Sadly, it was a starter I'd been using for years (since long before we were married), and the best I've ever come up with.
 
I haven't brewed with 3711 but I'd be surprised if the mouthfeel is directed by strain as much as by grain bill. This is a heavy attenuator, and saisons are usually very highly attenuated (that aspect of the style seems to be more strictly observed these days anyway), so mouthfeel is more about carbonation and dextrins.

My understanding is that belle saison attenuates more aggressively than 3711, though, so that may be a factor. If you make a very small beer with very low mash and too little carbonation with belle saison, you may find it's a little watery (carbonating properly helps a lot).
 
Different yeast produce different amounts of glucans responsible for perception of mouthfeel. This is not as well defined in ale yeast. Wine yeast is looked at more closely in this regard.
3711 is famous for a rich mouthfeel. One reason that it pairs so well with Brett, which produces none of those compounds.
 
Doing wild fermentations and sours will make one realize that traditional methods of achieving mouthfeel and avoiding a thin beer, are far from the only considerations.
 
I haven't brewed with 3711 but I'd be surprised if the mouthfeel is directed by strain as much as by grain bill. This is a heavy attenuator, and saisons are usually very highly attenuated (that aspect of the style seems to be more strictly observed these days anyway), so mouthfeel is more about carbonation and dextrins.

My understanding is that belle saison attenuates more aggressively than 3711, though, so that may be a factor. If you make a very small beer with very low mash and too little carbonation with belle saison, you may find it's a little watery (carbonating properly helps a lot).

I've used both many times and both are very aggressive attenuators. I'd go as far to say that 3711 even a little more so, but both will attenuate down to 1.005 and below.

Although 3711 will really dry out a beer it does leave a very slick mouthfeel. Almost silky or oily. I've never tasted a beer NOT fermented with 3711 that had the same mouthfeel. It will leave a dry flavor (if there is such a thing), but not a dry mouthfeel. 3711 is one of a kind, IMO. Belle Saison is also a very good Saison yeast, but 3711 has a bit more character and definitely more slick mouthfeel, IMO. Love them both though.

EDIT: But don't take my word for it, take it from the source.
https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=199
 
That sounds great, has me wanting to switch. I think several commercial saisons I've loved use 3711, so I've been curious, but I repitch so much I sometimes forget to try new strains.

I really like what belle saison does for big, dry saisons--20% sugar, 146F mash, 1.060+ beers. It takes those well under 1.000 for me even without breaking 70F (though you can if you want, for flavor), and they have a lot of character. I do like what it did with a 4% ABV session saison recently, but I'd like to see some of that slick mouthfeel that (now that I think about it) you find in some nice commercial saisons.
 
That sounds great, has me wanting to switch. I think several commercial saisons I've loved use 3711, so I've been curious, but I repitch so much I sometimes forget to try new strains.

HA! I have the same "problem" if you can call it that. I've been repitching the same Belle Saison since last summer. Got a free pack at NHC. I really want to switch back to 3711, but when you got a huge cake of another great yeast, why waste it?

My most recent, still in primary, was on the higher side at 1.073. So I may just dump it. I did get 4-5 batches of beer and traded a few jars of yeast out of one free pack of yeast. I'd say it did it's job. Time to set it free :)
 
Different yeast produce different amounts of glucans responsible for perception of mouthfeel. This is not as well defined in ale yeast. Wine yeast is looked at more closely in this regard.
3711 is famous for a rich mouthfeel. One reason that it pairs so well with Brett, which produces none of those compounds.

I think you might mean glycerol. Glucans are found in the malt. Wheat, rye, and buckwheat are all high in glucan. This is what attributes to a gummy mash.

Both glycerol and glucans will effect mouthfeel. 3711 may produce more glycerol than other saison yeast. Many other factors will effect mouthfeel other than FG. When a saison yeast does its job well, it will produce a good and not a thin mouthfeel.
 
I think you might mean glycerol. Glucans are found in the malt. Wheat, rye, and buckwheat are all high in glucan. This is what attributes to a gummy mash.

Both glycerol and glucans will effect mouthfeel. 3711 may produce more glycerol than other saison yeast. Many other factors will effect mouthfeel other than FG. When a saison yeast does its job well, it will produce a good and not a thin mouthfeel.

Yes. Thank you for the good catch!
Glucans are the reason we wheat, spelt, rye, or oats to our Brett beers. Cheers!
 
Great info, both. FWIW I definitely use 10-15% wheat in my belle saison brews, maybe more if they're smaller. Explains why the mouthfeel is not totally lacking--and the head on this last one was gorgeous, like cloudtops, even if I kind of wished it felt richer.
 
Does anyone feel that this yeast produces a mouthfeel anywhere close to that of 3711?


I find it to have a very similar mouthfeel to 3711 in that it is super attenuating but doesn't come off as watery. Considering how close to 1.000 it will go, I'm always surprised by that it still retains body. Not sure what unfermentables are left behind, but I've seen the same effect in a variety of grain bills.


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Thank you!

Have yet to taste the results, but I saw recently that Prairie Ales were giving Belle Saison a try. Thus far they have brewed mostly with 3711.

I am a huge fan of 3711, and would be pleased to have a dry alternative for occasions.
 
I have only taken it to 1.070 and that with some 15% sucrose, but it did attenuate to I think 1.003. It finished in no time with low-60s fermentation, so I can at least say it didn't blink at ~8% ABV.

I think it will treat your RIS well and probably stop around 12%. It's a real workhorse but every yeast has its limits.

I also agree with another poster that your RIS will taste rather different carbed and cold, but I have a personal aversion to big over-sweet stouts (at least imbalanced ones, which are everywhere) that leaves me agreeing with your decision to bring it down at least to the 1.020s if you can. With that kind of ABV it's good to remember that even 1.020 is a lot sweeter than a 1.020 milk stout (not just from "alcohol sweetness" but from the alcohol skewing your hydrometer).
 
I think it will treat your RIS well and probably stop around 12%. It's a real workhorse but every yeast has its limits.

Well, CBC-1 (always from Danstar, as Belle Saison) should work until 15%, I wouldn't take for granted the 12% limit for Belle Saison... :D
That's why I posted my thread here too.

Cheers from Italy! :mug:
Piteko
 
That would be a crazy potent saison (probably frightening to drink), but in an RIS the yeast character should be covered pretty well. Good to know, thanks!
 
Just bottled a saison that used this and it turned out great. The flow or is slightly milder and cleaner than I expected but it produced the correct flavor profile and was a beast in the wort. I went from 1.065 to 1.003 in about 10 days. I would happily use this again as it's easier and cheaper than the liquid strains


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I just brewed a saison with the danstar yeast. It is perfect. Textbook saison taste. I went for a 3.5-4%abv and 1lb honey to taste the yeast. Amazing. Also I didn't do anything with temp. I read this yeast doesn't need or care to raise the temp.


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Has anyone blended this with brett? Was planning on trying it in a couple weeks and wondered if anyone had any experience with it.
 
Has anyone blended this with brett? Was planning on trying it in a couple weeks and wondered if anyone had any experience with it.

I would be very interested in this as well. It seems like it would go really well with some brett b or c.

I may do this the next time I use this yeast...
 
I'll be using Brett b, the only concern I had was the super fast and high attenuation people seem to be getting. Worried the slower brett might not have much left to eat.
 
I haven't worked with brett yet but I think you could either up your mash temps (more brett-only fermentables) or pitch it first to give it a head start and solve that problem, assuming it is a problem.
 
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