New AG brewer with Thin Beer.

[backyardbrewco]

I've done a couple of batches of AG brewing and I think I have an issue with attenuation. My beer seems to be coming out pretty thin. Colour is great, starch conversion has been complete according to the iodine tests I did during the mash process. I have done both infusion and step infusion using a picnic cooler and I have been following charlie pap's joy of homebrewing instructions to the letter in regards to how much water to use for mashing and sparging etc. I think that my process is sound based on what I've read in regards to proper amounts and ratio's of grain to water. Using the picnic cooler, I'm a little wary of the temperature dropping but I still manage to get a clear iodine test after about 90mins. I've been consistently able to start my infusion mash at 156 degrees.

Unfortunately I broke my hydrometer so I haven't been getting the gravities which wasn't an issue with my last couple of batches of extract brewing. I will replace it before my next brew as I am struggling with AG brewing.

I did a watermelon beer first using 6lbs of North American 2-row and a pound of wheat malt. Then a couple more brews using 8 to 9 lbs of the 2 row plus 1 or 2 lbs of specialty malts.

Of the 4 batches I've done, I have 2 that I've moved into secondary and 2 batches freshly bottled. So far they all seem very thin. Tasting impressions are very astringent and sharp tasting without any body to it, and my previous extract beers definitely had more body at each stage than my AG.

Unfortunately the guys at my local HB store are pretty useless. Please help me HBtalk!

 

[WoodlandBrew]

The long mash time and potentially low temperature are likely the cost. What temperature does your mash finish at? Near 148°F the beta-amylase is very active and will continue to break down the longer chain sugars that the alpha-amylase have created leaving a highly fermentable wort.

Search my blog for Mash Temperature and you will get some good results. My book is better organized.

 

[dasmitty11]

what are you using for water? any alterations?

 

[backyardbrewco]

I've been ending up around 148. I will definitely check out your book.

My water is straight well water as I live in the country. I know I have hard water that has a high ph (above 6.0). I read that it isn't as much of a concern as the mash will help to balance out your ph... but I don't know.

 

[Yooper]

I've been ending up around 148. I will definitely check out your book.

My water is straight well water as I live in the country. I know I have hard water that has a high ph (above 6.0). I read that it isn't as much of a concern as the mash will help to balance out your ph... but I don't know.

Preheat your MLT, and mash no longer than 60 minutes (unless you are using a lot of adjuncts). A cooler shouldn't drop more than a degree or two, if it's properly preheated.

 

[duboman]

It sounds as though you need to raise your mash temp to get more body out of your beer. Be sure to verify the accuracy of your thermometer and ensure it is calibrated. If you are starting the mash at 156 then you are starting too low to achieve a mash temp of 152 or so as the grain will drop the temp. I shoot for about 163 strike water to mash at 152 depending on the temperature of the grain and size of the grain bill.

 

[backyardbrewco]

Preheat your MLT, and mash no longer than 60 minutes (unless you are using a lot of adjuncts). A cooler shouldn't drop more than a degree or two, if it's properly preheated.

I haven't been preheating it but I've adjusted the initial temp of my water so the mash temp settles around 156. I heat the water up to around 176 and it settles around 154 or so. If its hotter I stir it until the temp is lower. This usually takes me less than 5 min

 

[cluckk]

What I do is heat the water to a few degrees above the calculated temperature. I pour it into the MLT and close the lid for a few minutes. This heats up the tun and pulls some heat from the water. Then I open it and stir the water until it lowers down to my strike temp. At that point I dough in. I use Brew Smith to calculate this temp and don't adjust for equipment temperature (since I am compensating).

 

[Hopper5000]

If you are getting an astringent flavor then either your mash pH is too high and/or you are sparging too much. In general AG beers will attenuate more than extract because it's more fermentable . I would assume that your temp dropping is making the wort more fermentable and your beer turn out thinner. Do you know for sure that your thermometer is well calibrated? Only way to know is to get hydrometer readings.

 

[backyardbrewco]

It sounds as though you need to raise your mash temp to get more body out of your beer. Be sure to verify the accuracy of your thermometer and ensure it is calibrated. If you are starting the mash at 156 then you are starting too low to achieve a mash temp of 152 or so as the grain will drop the temp. I shoot for about 163 strike water to mash at 152 depending on the temperature of the grain and size of the grain bill.

I cannot confirm the accuracy of my thermometer. Perhaps I need to buy a new one rather than the cheap digital one I'm using. Good call.

 

[duboman]

I cannot confirm the accuracy of my thermometer. Perhaps I need to buy a new one rather than the cheap digital one I'm using. Good call.

Just keep in mind just because its new doesn't mean it's accurate. Check it in boiling water at 212 and a glass of ice water at 32, new or used/)

 

[Yooper]

I haven't been preheating it but I've adjusted the initial temp of my water so the mash temp settles around 156. I heat the water up to around 176 and it settles around 154 or so. If its hotter I stir it until the temp is lower. This usually takes me less than 5 min

Preheat your cooler for at least 15 minutes, because you're losing about 7+ degrees during your mash- that shouldn't happen with a cooler. You're losing too much heat by not preheating properly. That will be a huge problem, creating a too-low temperature for the mash and not enough dextrins. That will create a thin, dry beer.

Plus, check your thermometer as well! Even if it's wrong by 3 degrees, that can make a huge difference in your beer.

 

[backyardbrewco]

Hey everyone,

Sorry for the long delay, but things got crazy with me going back to school and after 4 failed attempts I got a bit gunshy. I bought a new thermometer and calibrated the old one and discovered it was off by about 3 degrees. I also started using the water mashing calculator from the forums. I also preheated the cooler and then mashed in the grain once I hit strike temp (instead of adding the water to the grain.

I just bottled my first batch after making these changes and I'm pretty sure it worked perfectly. My second batch just went into primary so I've got my fingers crossed for that one too.

I'm having a little trouble with sparging. I know that I have to raise the temp to 170 for a final rest, but I'm finding it difficult to do. How much of my sparse water should I use? Can I take my first runnings and add them to the sparge water? My cooler only holds 10 gallons and I'm afraid that if I add all the sparge water to it in order to hit 170, then I won't have any left to rinse the grain with after. What temp should my sparge water be?

Thanks again guys. I appreciate all the help.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'm having a little trouble with sparging. I know that I have to raise the temp to 170 for a final rest, but I'm finding it difficult to do. How much of my sparse water should I use? Can I take my first runnings and add them to the sparge water? My cooler only holds 10 gallons and I'm afraid that if I add all the sparge water to it in order to hit 170, then I won't have any left to rinse the grain with after. What temp should my sparge water be?

Are you batch (single or double?) or fly sparging? If batch sparging, you're going to first lauter and then drain your first wort runnings before adding the sparge water so the 10 gallon tun ought not to be an issue.

If double batch sparging, that first sparge water is going to have to be pretty hot (usually just north of 200*F) to raise the temp of the grain bed from the low 150's up to 170*F. The second sparge water should be about 168*F.

If doing a single sparge with a greater volume of water, it doesn't have to be that hot. There's no reason that I know of to add any of the first runnings to the sparge water. That would actually tend to defeat the purpose of sparging the grains (which is to flush out the sugars).

 

[RmikeVT]

After reading all your issues I have a few comments:
1) Get a Hydrometer and get accurate OG and FG readings as factors other than over attenuation can add to thin mouthfeel and sharp tastes (i.e. infection, tannins getting pulled out of grain from sparge ph or temp).

2) Invest in an accurate Thermometer, you don't need a $100 thermapen, but get something that is reliable within plus/minus 1.5 degrees. I have found digital thermometers designed for meat and smoking etc are well worth the $25-$30 (until you drop them in your boiling wort).

3) Take the temp at beginning and end of Mash. If you drop a bunch of degrees during the mash you are definitely going to get a very fermentable wort.

4) After the 60min mash do a mashout or take your first runnings and heat up to >= 170 degrees.

5) Sub 1lb of CaraPils for base grain as an easy fix.

 

[BreezyBrew]

After reading all your issues I have a few comments:
1) Get a Hydrometer and get accurate OG and FG readings as factors other than over attenuation can add to thin mouthfeel and sharp tastes (i.e. infection, tannins getting pulled out of grain from sparge ph or temp).

I agree on the hydrometer and also mash temp. What yeast are you using, and what styles of beer are these? That can also have an effect. I get much more body out of 1968 than US-05. A while back I was over pitching which caused my beers to be thin and harsh tasting.

 

[backyardbrewco]

I forgot to mention that I did get a new hydrometer as well. I did a smoked ale using 9 lbs of two row (3 lbs home smoked) 0.5 lbs carapils and 0.5 lbs Carafa type 1. I'm using wyeast for my yeast and for this one I used a ring wood ale yeast. My OG was 1.040 at 72 degrees F and my FG was 1.012 at around the same temp. The one I just brewed is a porter with a profile of 9 lbs of 2 row, 0.5 lbs chocolate malt, 1lbs of caramunich, 1 lbs Carafa and 0.5 lbs of black prinz. The OG was 1.038 at 70 degrees F. The temp only dropped about 2 or 3 degrees and I reached starch conversion after 60 to 75 minutes, but I feel like my OGs are low. The rauchale tastes pretty good though and doesn't have the thinness of the batches from the beginning of the thread. I'm not sure about the sparging process. I generally take the first runnings and dump them back into the tun. Then add the water and start to slowly up my mort. I spoke with a professional brewer at a recent event and he said that I was sparging "too quickly" before. So now I let the wort drain slowly out of the tun. How much first runnings should I collect? Is 2 or 3 litres suitable?

 

[backyardbrewco]

Oh and I definitely got some sort of infection in final two batches that I first posted about.

 

[BackAlley]

I think you need to go back to basics and find out where you're going south. 12lb of grain should end up way north of the 1.040 you're getting. I'd start with 11.5lb of pale malt and 1lb C40 and mash with about 16qt of water and hit a strike temp of 152. The first runnings should be about 1.075. If not, you've got a problem. Then I'd sparge twice with equal volumes sufficient to get 7g of wort. The SG at this point should be about 1.040. If not, something's wrong. Then I'd add enough centennial to get 35 ibu's from a 60 min boil. At the end of the boil you should have no more than 6g of wort. Then I'd throw in another 2oz of centennial and cool. At that point your OG should be at least 1.050. If not, you've got a problem. Then I'd pitch at 65 and ferment for two weeks with 001, 1056 or 05 at 68 degrees. If you don't end up with a very drinkable pale ale, you've got a problem.

I think you need to check each and every step and find out where your issue(s) are.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'm not sure about the sparging process. I generally take the first runnings and dump them back into the tun. Then add the water and start to slowly up my mort. I spoke with a professional brewer at a recent event and he said that I was sparging "too quickly" before. So now I let the wort drain slowly out of the tun. How much first runnings should I collect? Is 2 or 3 litres suitable?

If you batch sparge, there's no good reason that I know of to dump your first runnings back into the tun after you have lautered. Drain as much wort from the tun as you can and put that wort into the kettle. Then you dump in your sparge water (split in two parts if you're double batch sparging) to the grain bed, stir well, let the grain bed settle 10-15 minutes, lauter and drain all that you can for the kettle again.

 

[duboman]

http://www.dennybrew.com

Everything you need to know about batch sparging plain and simple!