NEIPAs Clearing Up Too Quickly

[alooper86]

I’ve brewed a number of NEIPAs over the past years and have good results initially. The beers are great for the first two weeks. However after that they tend to clear up and have a more standard IPA mouthfeel. My typical grist is:

75% rahr 2-row
12.5% flaked oats
12.5% flaked wheat

Mash at 156 and have used London III, imperial juice, omega tropical and giga Vermont. All have produced similar results.

I try to limit cold side oxygen as much as possible. Any help to retain the beers integrity in those first two weeks would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Jag75]

I would think that grain bill would easily stay hazy . Maybe it's the time sitting in the keg which basically cold crash . I use 2 row , munich light , flaked wheat , flaked oats and white wheat in mine but it never clears though so I dont know .

 

[brew703]

I’ve brewed a number of NEIPAs over the past years and have good results initially. The beers are great for the first two weeks. However after that they tend to clear up and have a more standard IPA mouthfeel. My typical grist is:

75% rahr 2-row
12.5% flaked oats
12.5% flaked wheat

Mash at 156 and have used London III, imperial juice, omega tropical and giga Vermont. All have produced similar results.

I try to limit cold side oxygen as much as possible. Any help to retain the beers integrity in those first two weeks would be greatly appreciated!

Use 15-20% oat malt. I've been adding that to my NEIPA's and the Haze remains.

 

[brew703]

Also check out the other half daydream Oat cream IPA thread.

 

[couchsending]

You’ll need to supply us with more info especially your dry hopping techniques.

Relying on flaked adjuncts to produce a specific mouthfeel will always result in the beer clearing over time. When those heavy proteins fall out of suspension they also drag hop compounds with them.

The key to stable haze is the correct “size” of protein that stays in solution.

I don’t use any high protein malts and can easily make permanently hazy beer. I’m also not relying on the protein to create mouthfeel.

professional breweries have access to a bunch of products that help them keep haze in suspension that we don’t have access to.

 

[alooper86]

My dry hopping technique for this has been add the first round of about 4-6 oz 24-48 hours yeast pitch. Let fermentation go for approximately 7 days when I add my second dry hop addition of around the same size for about 3 days. After that I will cold crash and close transfer to a keg. I was reading another thread that suggested cold crashing to drop yeast then add significant dry hops afterwards. Thoughts?

 

[alooper86]

Use 15-20% oat malt. I've been adding that to my NEIPA's and the Haze remains.

Thanks for the suggestion. Do you use the wheat malt instead of flaked adjuncts?

 

[alooper86]

You’ll need to supply us with more info especially your dry hopping techniques.

Relying on flaked adjuncts to produce a specific mouthfeel will always result in the beer clearing over time. When those heavy proteins fall out of suspension they also drag hop compounds with them.

The key to stable haze is the correct “size” of protein that stays in solution.

I don’t use any high protein malts and can easily make permanently hazy beer. I’m also not relying on the protein to create mouthfeel.

professional breweries have access to a bunch of products that help them keep haze in suspension that we don’t have access to.

If not relying upon adjuncts for mouthfeel I assume it would come down to water profile which I do target at a 2:1 chloride to sulfate ratio. Another post suggested using oat malt instead of the flaked adjuncts

 

[Loud Brewing]

Use 15-20% oat malt. I've been adding that to my NEIPA's and the Haze remains.

Same here, I use malted oat in all of my hazy beers

 

[couchsending]

My dry hopping technique for this has been add the first round of about 4-6 oz 24-48 hours yeast pitch. Let fermentation go for approximately 7 days when I add my second dry hop addition of around the same size for about 3 days. After that I will cold crash and close transfer to a keg. I was reading another thread that suggested cold crashing to drop yeast then add significant dry hops afterwards. Thoughts?

Ditch that first dry hop charge. It’s a waste of hops.

If you want to dry hop during fermentation wait until the very very end of fermentation. You’ll maximize the impact. However I’d keep the percentage of your overall dry hop charge to like 25% for that first one. Once you’re sure fermentation is done and diacetyl has been cleaned up cool to 55/60 for a day. Remove yeast and add your bigger dry hop charge.

Try replacing that flaked what amount with unmarked wheat I’d you must.

Or you can ditch the high protein malts and use

Rahr 2 Row
10% Carafoam (not Carapils)
2% of your favorite crystal malt

Add a 20 minute rest at 162 after your first rest.

Add all dry hops after fermentation and soft crash.

 

[alooper86]

Are you in the camp that yeast does not affect haze whatsoever? I was listening to someone from Modern Times and she said the haze 100% does not come from yeast.

As far as eliminating the first dry hop during active fermentation I have heard many say they rely on the “bio transformation” to create haze they are looking for

 

[brew703]

Thanks for the suggestion. Do you use the wheat malt instead of flaked adjuncts?

I don't use flaked wheat. Just the Oat malt and flaked oats. You could use flaked wheat if you want. I just brewed friday and used pils, oat malt, flaked oats and white wheat and a touch of honey malt.

 

[brew703]

Before I started using Oat malt all my NEIPA's dropped clear after a few weeks on gas. For me, adding Oat malt fixed that.

 

[brew703]

This is one o brewed on 3/7. Kegged kicked friday and the color looked the same friday as it did when it was first kegged.

 

[alooper86]

That beer looks like mine for the first two weeks but they start dropping clear and losing flavor thereafter. I will definitely start adding oat malt. And just to confirm, you’re keeping the percentage of oat malt in the 15-20%?

 

[brew703]

Correct. The one I brewed Friday had 17% oat malt and 17% flaked oats. I've seen some go as high as 50% oat malt/flaked oats.
I also find getting the Na of your water at 50-60 ppm helps with mouthfeel.

 

[alooper86]

Correct. The one I brewed Friday had 17% oat malt and 17% flaked oats. I've seen some go as high as 50% oat malt/flaked oats.
I also find getting the Na of your water at 50-60 ppm helps with mouthfeel.

ok awesome. What does your dry hop schedule look like?

 

[brew703]

ok awesome. What does your dry hop schedule look like?

Usually 6-12 oz DH. Just depends what I feel like.I do one addition at the very end of fermentation.
Wp addition is normally 6-9 oz.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I have brewed 11 NEIPAs now and all of them have ~20-30% of the total grain bill comprised of different combinations of malted oats, flaked oats, white wheat, or flaked barley. Ive enjoyed all of them and none of them have cleared on me one bit but the longest one has only lasted about 5 weeks after kegging - most last about 3.5weeks. Grain bill aside, Im a firm believer that the cold side processes really affect haze stability more than the grain bill itself but again - all my NEIPAs have been comprised of a grain bill with lots of oats/wheat/barley etc so this is just my two cents.

My fermentation processes aren't unlike lots on this forum but here is what I do:

1) let the beer ferment out fully - I generally take a hydro sample at about 7days (with exception of voss kviek yeast) but I get the feeling several of them are done at about 5days but I wait nonetheless
2) If at day 7 the hydro reading appears to have hit the FG Ive targeted, i then raise the temp or hold the temp at 71 for 2-3 more days for "yeast cleanup"
3) After "yeast cleanup" I soft crash to 55degrees for about 18-24hrs. If you get to 55, IMO, you can visually see the beer clearing quite well.
4) after soft crashing, I raise temp to 65 degrees for dry hopping (I do two dry hops separated about 24hrs apart)
5) about 24hrs after final dry hop - I start the hard crash to 38 degrees.
6) Once at 38 degrees - I keg.

I think the soft crash is VERY helpful to drop the yeast out (mostly) of the beer. My limited understanding is that if the yeast are still in suspension when you dry hop, when the yeast DO drop out - they can carry hop oils/hop stuff with it.

For what its worth - I keg, and when I transfer to keg Im using a top draw floating dip tube which puts nice beer with very little hop debris/yeast/trub into the keg. Every time Ive opened a keg thats recently been kicked - I see very little hop debris on the bottom of the keg - so very little "settles out" while in the keg because that is done in the fermenter instead.

This has been working for me. Beer flavors have been great - aromas good too. SO I see no reason to change these processes now considering its taken some time to be more efficient with them.

 

[alooper86]

I have brewed 11 NEIPAs now and all of them have ~20-30% of the total grain bill comprised of different combinations of malted oats, flaked oats, white wheat, or flaked barley. Ive enjoyed all of them and none of them have cleared on me one bit but the longest one has only lasted about 5 weeks after kegging - most last about 3.5weeks. Grain bill aside, Im a firm believer that the cold side processes really affect haze stability more than the grain bill itself but again - all my NEIPAs have been comprised of a grain bill with lots of oats/wheat/barley etc so this is just my two cents.

My fermentation processes aren't unlike lots on this forum but here is what I do:

1) let the beer ferment out fully - I generally take a hydro sample at about 7days (with exception of voss kviek yeast) but I get the feeling several of them are done at about 5days but I wait nonetheless
2) If at day 7 the hydro reading appears to have hit the FG Ive targeted, i then raise the temp or hold the temp at 71 for 2-3 more days for "yeast cleanup"
3) After "yeast cleanup" I soft crash to 55degrees for about 18-24hrs. If you get to 55, IMO, you can visually see the beer clearing quite well.
4) after soft crashing, I raise temp to 65 degrees for dry hopping (I do two dry hops separated about 24hrs apart)
5) about 24hrs after final dry hop - I start the hard crash to 38 degrees.
6) Once at 38 degrees - I keg.

I think the soft crash is VERY helpful to drop the yeast out (mostly) of the beer. My limited understanding is that if the yeast are still in suspension when you dry hop, when the yeast DO drop out - they can carry hop oils/hop stuff with it.

For what its worth - I keg, and when I transfer to keg Im using a top draw floating dip tube which puts nice beer with very little hop debris/yeast/trub into the keg. Every time Ive opened a keg thats recently been kicked - I see very little hop debris on the bottom of the keg - so very little "settles out" while in the keg because that is done in the fermenter instead.

This has been working for me. Beer flavors have been great - aromas good too. SO I see no reason to change these processes now considering its taken some time to be more efficient with them.

Really good feedback and I really appreciate the detailed explanation of your entire process. The further down the rabbit hole I go I am beginning to think/learn that permanent haze is more of a hop oil suspension issue than it is grain Bill and yeast component. I will be implementing your suggestions on my next NEIPA and I’m sure it will help fix my issue

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Try without the flaked stuff. I typically use oat malt and white wheat, at varying amounts but usually 20-30% of the grain bill. Mine don't drop clear on me. I read that flaked has bigger protein molecules which can drop out quicker. Obviously cold size oxidation prevention is crucial for this style.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Try without the flaked stuff. I typically use oat malt and white wheat, at varying amounts but usually 20-30% of the grain bill. Mine don't drop clear on me. I read that flaked has bigger protein molecules which can drop out quicker. Obviously cold size oxidation prevention is crucial for this style.

In addition to what @VirginiaHops1 stated, and since you didn’t state what your cold side processes actually involve, I’ve read from a bunch of peeps on here that if you don’t have a cold side process that is closed to minimize oxygen intake while cold crashing- it is probably recommended that you don’t do it. If you don’t have a way to pump CO2 into your fermentation vessel while cold crashing (soft crash or hard crash it doesn’t matter which) your fermentation vessel will either a) suck air/oxygen into the vessel and degrade the beer or b) it will form a vacuum and potentially implode. Good luck!

 

[brew703]

I normally don't cold crash NEIPA's. I dry hop in a bag and remove before racking to a keg.
If you do cold crash get a mylar balloon. You can attach to your blow off tube during active fermentation using a tee. That way you can capture the natural co2. Or you can attach after fermentation. Just fill the balloon w co2 then cold crash.

 

[Jag75]

I normally don't cold crash NEIPA's. I dry hop in a bag and remove before racking to a keg.
If you do cold crash get a mylar balloon. You can attach to your blow off tube during active fermentation using a tee. That way you can capture the natural co2. Or you can attach after fermentation. Just fill the balloon w co2 then cold crash.

One thing that I've changed is my dry hopping schedule. I've found that it's better to dry hop about 3-5 days before I keg. Hops are fresher and have brighter notes. As a plus to doing it this way I dont haven't take the hop bag out . I just trans to keg leaving the hop bag behind.

 

[BrewMan13]

Try without the flaked stuff. I typically use oat malt and white wheat, at varying amounts but usually 20-30% of the grain bill. Mine don't drop clear on me. I read that flaked has bigger protein molecules which can drop out quicker. Obviously cold size oxidation prevention is crucial for this style.

I'm far from an expert on the style, but this is how I approach the grist as well.