NEIPA dont’s

[beervoid]

Sure looks are important, that wasn’t the point. This is the issue with this style, it’s an Instagram perpetuated style. Just cause it’s hazy and looks like Juice doesn’t mean it’s good. More often than not it’ll actually mean it’s bad. Chalky, astringent, and smells like rotting fruit.

I will say again

Treehouse, Monkish, Hill Farmstead

No flaked adjuncts in most of their beers. They’re the tip of the iceberg in my opinion.

Yes if you use a low protein base malt like Golden Promise or MO you will need to use flaked adjuncts as the starting protein levels of your base malt are already low. However these high protein adjuncts not only have a flavor impact they also have an affect on oxidation and beer stability.

Judging by the beers from HF and TH I’ve had analyzed their Ca additions are not CaCl derived. Cl levels are higher yes but not by using CaCl.

You need to do more research on hop utilization. There are a few more factors that affect bitterness other than time and temp. These other factors have affects on wort proteins as well as fermentation health.

Do you know how hard it is for a professional brewery to drop their wort from 212 to 160 and their hop utilization is way higher than on a homebrew scale. There are benefits to boiling certain hops for certain lengths of time. Some compounds benefit from it. Even juicy/fruity ones believe it or not.

You can make a better permanently hazy beer with aromatics that explode out of the glass, is full and soft, yet disappears mid pallet by not using the cheats that homebrewers created for this style. They couldn’t find any info on how to make these beers cause the originators were tight lipped about their process and ingredients.

Yes there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just depends on the cat you’re trying to skin. I’m trying to make beers similar to the best ones I’ve had all across the US. From my research the best ones don’t do many of the things most people think they do.

Im interested in your high protein malt comment.
I love golden promise for the flavour it brings.
Are you replacing most of the bill with carapils or dextrin malts?
Like 50% dextrin malts 50% pale?

 

[couchsending]

Im interested in your high protein malt comment.
I love golden promise for the flavour it brings.
Are you replacing most of the bill with carapils or dextrin malts?
Like 50% dextrin malts 50% pale?

Definitely not.

Most American 2 Row is considerably higher in protein content than any English or continental European malts, especially the UK varieties. If you look at the Trillium grain bills for instance the only time they add any flaked wheat is when they use Pilsner as a base malt. Continental European Pilsner has a lower protein content hence the flaked wheat to add more.

You can’t use more than 10% Carapils I believe. You can use up to 40% Carafoam, they’re different malts.

 

[beervoid]

Definitely not.

Most American 2 Row is considerably higher in protein content than any English or continental European malts, especially the UK varieties. If you look at the Trillium grain bills for instance the only time they add any flaked wheat is when they use Pilsner as a base malt. Continental European Pilsner has a lower protein content hence the flaked wheat to add more.

You can’t use more than 10% Carapils I believe. You can use up to 40% Carafoam, they’re different malts.

Thanks. Ive got some chit malt and love it for head retention. Been upping it slowly, seems I might need to up it even more.

 

[Dgallo]

If you look at the Trillium grain bills for instance the only time they add any flaked wheat is when they use Pilsner as a base malt. Continental European Pilsner has a lower protein content hence the flaked wheat to add more.

Mind going to Trilliums website for me and reading every available beer’s grain bill?... white wheat, flaked wheat, or oat in EVERY SINGLE ONE. Oh and it’s in combination with 2row practically 90% of the time.... oh and before you claim you were only talking about flaked wheat not white wheat, they have similar protein content so they are used for mouthfeel and offer an increased haziness. The only difference in extraction potential and specific mouthfeel

 

[beervoid]

Btw I think the argument about flaked adjuncts is kind of pointless as a recent study of the haze in neipas shows protein content varies from 10 to 50%.
So both high and low would work I would say.

View attachment 601255
Mind going to Trilliums website for me and reading every available beer’s grain bill?... white wheat, flaked wheat, or oat in EVERY SINGLE ONE. Oh and it’s in combination with 2row practically 90% of the time.... oh and before you claim you were only talking about flaked wheat not white wheat, they have similar protein content so they are used for mouthfeel and offer an increased haziness. The only difference in extraction potential and specific mouthfeel

White wheat yes but not flaked wheat.
And the permutation series are only pale and honey malt nothing else. And looks like thick orange juice.

From my own experience, I always preferred my Neipa's when they cleared up a bit.
When I drank a good trillium, I poured it slowly and its more clear. Then the last poor with more "haze" was less bright in flavour.

 

[Dgallo]

If you read my whole comment, my only true argument was that he claimed they don’t use wheat or flaked wheat unless they use Pilsner malt, which is not true. Practically every beer they make has one or another. But yes, grains with higher protein contribute to cloudiness. Think of any beer style that uses wheat... hazy

 

[ccous]

Whether or not trillium or tree house uses adjuncts is meaningless. They aren’t the gold standard. Hill farmstead indisputably defines the style. No one has figured out how he achieves that mouthfeel without using oats or wheat (he has stated multiple times that mouthfeel is the primary goal in most of their beers, and it is what makes his beers intangible). So, we have came up with a bunch of cheats to try and replicate the style. Adjuncts and even lactose as a work around. I’ll continue to experiment with and read about water chemistry, mash paremeters, pH at all stages, etc. There is something out there that no one has pinned down. It isn’t adjuncts.

 

[Dgallo]

Whether or not trillium or tree house uses adjuncts is meaningless. They aren’t the gold standard. Hill farmstead indisputably defines the style. No one has figured out how he achieves that mouthfeel without using oats or wheat (he has stated multiple times that mouthfeel is the primary goal in most of their beers, and it is what makes his beers intangible). So, we have came up with a bunch of cheats to try and replicate the style. Adjuncts and even lactose as a work around. I’ll continue to experiment with and read about water chemistry, mash paremeters, pH at all stages, etc. There is something out there that no one has pinned down. It isn’t adjuncts.

He’s on a well. His water chemistry has much to do with it. That’s why when he is asked if he’ll come off the farm he says no way

 

[ccous]

He’s on a well. His water chemistry has much to do with it. That’s why when he is asked if he’ll come off the farm he says no way

Totally agree, excellent point. No one has been able to start with a blank slate and replicate/build that water. That’ll be the key. That’s what people should worry about, not oats. And obviously just blasting water with CaCl isn’t the answer.

 

[Dgallo]

Absolutely. Those trace minierals do play a role. My well is great for NEIPAS. I only have to adjust when the table is high.

 

[beervoid]

If you read my whole comment, my only true argument was that he claimed they don’t use wheat or flaked wheat unless they use Pilsner malt, which is not true. Practically every beer they make has one or another. But yes, grains with higher protein contribute to cloudiness. Think of any beer style that uses wheat... hazy

Well its true the pilsener malt beers from them are the only ones with flaked wheats on top of the white wheat so it sounds plausible to it has to do with the added protein content.
Also the recipes in magazines from trillium state very low % of wheat compared to 20% and higher most people are talking about.
I think it's worth a shot trying to make a neipa without wheat or oats see how it turns out.

 

[Dgallo]

I think it's worth a shot trying to make a neipa without wheat or oats see how it turns out.

I can get behind that. If you aren’t changing your grain bill and only swapping hops all your doing is a hop series. Gotta change gains too from time to time.

 

[couchsending]

The comment I made about Trillium beers was in reference to flaked wheat not malted wheat. Flaked wheat is used when
they use Pilsner malt. Otherwise it's just malted white wheat, which in my opinion was just used to improve head retention
when they were first designing their recipes. There are a couple small bird series beers that do use oats.

Most of their recent permutation, lighthouse, and island series beers have no wheat or oats in them. Just a combo of
Pale, Honey, and sometime victory malts. They're hazy as hell.

You don't "need" oats or wheat to create haze. In fact I think you can get more stable haze without them.

In regard to the water at Hill Farmstead, almost every one of his beer styles has a completely different water profile
for it. The water there has something to do with it but in my opinion it's not just his water. He knows how to modify
his water for each beer and use different salts for different things. I've had a bunch of their beers analyzed and seen
profiles from beers others have sent in.

 

[ccous]

In regard to the water at Hill Farmstead, almost every one of his beer styles has a completely different water profile
for it. The water there has something to do with it but in my opinion it's not just his water. He knows how to modify
his water for each beer and use different salts for different things. I've had a bunch of their beers analyzed and seen
profiles from beers others have sent in.

This information would be immensely helpful if you share; I’ve seen you allude to it before. I understand however if you do not wish to, since I assume you paid for it.

I do agree with you on most of your points regarding making NEIPA (the minority here). I stopped using adjuncts, low temp whirlpools, massive bio trans hops, etc., a few years ago. I’m sick of the work around. People gave up on how to truly create this style. Back to square one.

 

[plazola86]

@couchsending could post a recipe to one of your NEIPA beers and pictures. I'm curious to see the grain bill, yeast choice and final product. Not being a smart ass either! I (like you) don't follow a trend just to follow it but learn from things that I actually practice and have been making my NEIPA's with oats and white wheat and have had good success but would like to try a different approach to compare. I have not been able to master the huge aroma that I want out of my beers.

 

[Dgallo]

@couchsending I do appreciate all the research you do. And that’s not me being condescending. At first I thought you were a beer conspiracy theorist, saying all these “don’t drink the koolaid” statements. You’re right, you don’t have to use oat or flaked wheat or wheat at all. However I personally do use at least one of them in my NE’s and they truly do come out wonderful. All these following beers have at least wheat in them.

 

[ccous]

With utmost respect, those beers look great. I’d love to try and I’m sure I would like them.
I just think no homebrewer has epitomized this style. Many workarounds and shortcuts were made that make a fine hazy ipa. No one has nailed it. I want the discussion to circle back. The list of ‘must dos’ isn’t what is done by the best.

 

[Dgallo]

@ccous I would most certainly send you one. Hook up the bottle gun and cap it up for you.

Now I’m not claiming my beers are on par with the likes of treehouse, etc. but I do disagree with your comments on homebrewers. I think your selling all of us short saying these are shortcuts and that homebrewers can’t brew the same quality. Almost every professional brewer started as a homebrewers (treehouse was a 2.5 barrel system starting off)And more importantly, if youre all-grain Brewing, commercial equipment is literally the same thing with more automation.Ive brewed multiple times on a 15 barrel system and it’s genuinely the same process. Obviously recipes must be adjusted because of increase mash efficiency and hop utilization but you can account for that

 

[ccous]

@ccous I would most certainly send you one. Hook up the bottle gun and cap it up for you.

Now I’m not claiming my beers are on par with the likes of treehouse, etc. but I do disagree with your comments on homebrewers. I think your selling all of us short saying these are shortcuts and that homebrewers can’t brew the same quality. Almost every professional brewer started as a homebrewers (treehouse was a 2.5 barrel system starting off)And more importantly, if youre all-grain Brewing, commercial equipment is literally the same thing with more automation.Ive brewed multiple times on a 15 barrel system and it’s genuinely the same process. Obviously recipes must be adjusted because of increase mash efficiency and hop utilization but you can account for that

PM sent!

 

[kevink]

I just think no homebrewer has epitomized this style. Many workarounds and shortcuts were made that make a fine hazy ipa. No one has nailed it. I want the discussion to circle back. The list of ‘must dos’ isn’t what is done by the best.

Wow, what an odd comment. No one has nailed it? Well, maybe not you or your friends. I certainly have, and it's honestly not that hard. Certain parts of the process can be improved on the homebrew scale, so I actually believe you can homebrew better beer than commercial breweries. The only reason I brew is because I can brew things that are different and better than some of the really great breweries (not to sound cocky at all, it's just the truth and the thing that keeps me brewing).

 

[ccous]

Wow, what an odd comment. No one has nailed it? Well, maybe not you or your friends. I certainly have, and it's honestly not that hard. Certain parts of the process can be improved on the homebrew scale, so I actually believe you can homebrew better beer than commercial breweries. The only reason I brew is because I can brew things that are different and better than some of the really great breweries (not to sound cocky at all, it's just the truth and the thing that keeps me brewing).

None of this is to disrespect anyone or their product; we’re all making great beers we’re proud of. That’s the whole point, of course. Regarding this style, there’s just this set of rules that you ‘must do’ that I don’t agree with. I want to hear about great neipas without 20% oats/wheat, a sky high chloride:sulfate ratio, massive active fermentation dry hops, etc. Of course no one knows exactly what the best are doing, but from what I gather that ain’t it. I’d just like everyone to continue exploring. In know I’m in the minority here, I’m sorry.

 

[couchsending]

@couchsending could post a recipe to one of your NEIPA beers and pictures. I'm curious to see the grain bill, yeast choice and final product. Not being a smart ass either! I (like you) don't follow a trend just to follow it but learn from things that I actually practice and have been making my NEIPA's with oats and white wheat and have had good success but would like to try a different approach to compare. I have not been able to master the huge aroma that I want out of my beers.

Sure.

Grain Bills are for the most part

Rahr 2 Row
- Sometimes blend with Pale Ale Malt
Carafoam
Occasionally 2% Honey malt
Occasionally 4% Carahell
Occasionally I’ll add 1% Caraaroma
- for more color
Brewtan B

Step mash depending on yeast, beer, and malt.

152/162/168
145/162/168


90 minute boil

25-40 IBUs at 60
- Magnum or Hopshot usually

1-2oz at 20
1-2 Oz at 5
3-5oz at 180 WP
- i whirlpool at that temp to prevent DMS reformation more than anything.
All depends on hop variety and ABV

1/2 tab whirlfloc @ 10
Yeast Nutrient at 10

Let as much break settle as possible before transfer to FV


1318, 1272, 1469, 1098 all work well
S04 if you need to use dry
Imperial version of those yeasts too
Had decent luck with A30
I generally detest Conan

If I do dry hop during fermentation it’s only a small amount right before terminal. Leave at 68-70 for 2 days after terminal. Soft crash to 55-60 for two days to get yeast to flocc. Pull as much yeast as I can. Add 6-10 Oz of dry hops. Sometimes I’ll space the additions, sometimes not. Leave at 58-62 for 4-7 days depending. Crash to 40/45 for 2 days. Transfer to keg.

Sometimes I’ll krausen, sometimes I’ll force carb. Ideally krausen but sometimes the timing doesn’t work.

Permanent haze for up to two months in the keg.

Don’t generally take pics of my beer. Here’s one from this summer. I think this one won specialty IPA for my state comp, can’t remember if it was this exact beer or not. Not great lighting, suck at pics.

 

[ccous]

I’m not a big fan of this, because who knows how it tastes or smells. Pretty good IMO. Anyways, no wheat/oats, no biotransformation hop, no London III, pretty much none of the ‘must dos’. @couchsending style. Over a month kegged.

 

[couchsending]

If you want the banger aroma you need to:

A: keep your O2 pickup after adding hops to as minute amounts as possible.

B: dry hop with as little yeast present as possible.

Hard to do these things if you’re not fermenting in a conical.

 

[Moose_MI]

I started this thread and never even posted the recipe...seriously people...reallly?

So much drama and no recipe? Really? How was I allowed to get away with this? 143 posts by people that had something important to share on a thread where the OP prick never told you what he did.....?!?!?

We’re better than this damn it!

 

[kevink]

None of this is to disrespect anyone or their product

How could it? You have not even tasted my beer.

there’s just this set of rules that you ‘must do’ that I don’t agree with

There are no rules. You can do whatever you want. The best breweries of this style are doing many of the things that you think they are not doing, though. Why do you not see this?

I want to hear about great neipas without...

Hearing about them doesn't mean anything. You need to taste them! I read description from breweries all the time that make them sound like the best beer ever, and then tasting them reveals that they are only average or below average. Are you just waiting for someone to say that they brewed an amazing NEIPA without any of the things that are basically proven to produce these beers? If so, I just don't get it. Not only is it likely impossible, but what is the point?

 

[Moose_MI]

^^^^^
Exactly how long did it take to quote 3 different portions of a thread and insert responses in sequence?

Impressive....you deserve a beer

 

[kevink]

Exactly how long did it take to quote 3 different portions of a thread and insert responses in sequence?

Just a few seconds. I think I finally figured out this "new" forum.

Impressive....you deserve a beer

Damn right!

 

[Moose_MI]

^^^^
The force is strong with this one

 

[Blazinlow86]

Imho any recipe that uses alot of late hop additions need to be chilled in a specific repeatable way to avoid coming out way more bitter than planned. Also those specific chilling numbers need to be correctly entered into your software to allow your hop bill to be adjusted to your process. Some neipa recipes can easily come out 2x or even 3x as bitter as expected with just a few extra minutes at higher temperatures than planned for. I feel alot of brewers overlook this. Example would be adding 10 ounces of whirlpool hops that a recipe expects to add say 5ibu. If *your* process of whirlpooling takes 25 mins to get down to say 160 you gonna have a hop bomb compared to the original creators process which only takes a few minutes. Again this is specifically for late hop additions that your only trying to extract the flavors and not the bitterness. Early additions aren't as susceptible as after the 60 min boil everything is already been extracted more or less. Cheers

 

[beervoid]

Certain parts of the process can be improved on the homebrew scale, so I actually believe you can homebrew better beer than commercial breweries.

Curious to hear from you which parts you think homebrewers can do better? I can only think of maybe lower whirlpooling temps but that doesn't seem to effect the end result much.

I know what is harder to do better then pro breweries.
- get better hops
- filter with surgeon precision by centrifuge
- dry hop with some sort of hop infusion device and recirculate without any oxygen pickup

All trivial imho to make a great NEIPA.

I would want to add another DON'T to the list if it wasn't mentioned before.

- Don't drink your neipa within 2 weeks post fermentation. Depending on the hops it can really help to bring the juice out to let these beer settle out for at least 1 week after dry hopping but better 2 - 3 weeks.

 

[Dgallo]

I know what is harder to do better then pro breweries.
- get better hops

Home brewers have better availability of hops overall then pro-brewers. I mean Shawn Hill and those guys can get what ever hops and amount of those hops that their hearts desire. Their notoriety makes every farm and distributor want their hops getting brewed there. Most local breweries and those in the 10-30bbl size have a hard time getting hops that are outside their contract with their distributors. They rely heavily on hop exchanges with other breweries. That’s why you see sooo many “collaboration” beers

 

[beervoid]

Home brewers have better availability of hops overall then pro-brewers. I mean Shawn Hill and those guys can get what ever hops and amount of those hops that their hearts desire. Their notoriety makes every farm and distributor want their hops getting brewed there. Most local breweries and those in the 10-30bbl size have a hard time getting hops that are outside their contract with their distributors. They rely heavily on hop exchanges with other breweries. That’s why you see sooo many “collaboration” beers

Better availability yes but I was arguing quality as in they can visit the farms and pick their own lots as opposed to us home brewers buying whatever is left.

Interesting viewpoint on the collab beers.

 

[plazola86]

All these beer pictures look damn good! Here’s some of mine.

 

[plazola86]

@couchsending thanks for the tips. I ferment in Anvil fermenters so getting the beer off the yeast would mean I would have to secondary. Or maybe i could just transfer to the serving keg purged with CO2 and bagged hops inside. I have to think of something to try.

@Dgallo how’s the aroma on your beers?

 

[Dgallo]

@plazola86
They look really good. Only comment would be lack of head on the one but color is real nice.

One thing I’ll always give myself credit for is my aroma. I do genuinely nail that hop out of the bag kind of scent. I feel yeast esters and the right carb always contribute greatly to the overall aroma

 

[couchsending]

@couchsending thanks for the tips. I ferment in Anvil fermenters so getting the beer off the yeast would mean I would have to secondary. Or maybe i could just transfer to the serving keg purged with CO2 and bagged hops inside. I have to think of something to try.

@Dgallo how’s the aroma on your beers?

What’s your keg purging process?

Can you force transfer with very little O2 ingress? Sorry I don’t know the Anvil setup.

If you can, skip the bag. Scott Janish has a nice write up of a dip tube screen he uses instead of bagging. Or you could use one of the floating dip tube devices. Bought one of those a while ago and still haven’t used it.

I’ve avoided dry hopping in the keg as it makes the liquid purging process virtually impossible and in order to get a similar level of O2 you’d have to waste soooo much Co2.

I’ve always wanted to try purging the keg with Co2 from fermentation with loose hops in the keg the whole time. Just not sure if hops sitting exposed to O2 in a warm environment for a week would be detrimental or not.

 

[Dgallo]

Better availability yes but I was arguing quality as in they can visit the farms and pick their own lots as opposed to us home brewers buying whatever is left.

Interesting viewpoint on the collab beers.

Quality should be the same as well. I mean in a way you’re right. Say a farm is known for their genetic producing higher oil contents, than absolutely they have the access to contract directly with them. However As long as you’re getting this years hops and buying from a reliable place that vacuum seals, your hops will most likely be on par.

 

[plazola86]

@couchsending the Anvil fermenters are pretty much just like the SS brewtech buckets. They have a dip tube and a coned bottom to transfer clear beer but no way of getting the yeast out. I fill my keg with sanitizer and push it all out with CO2 (best way to avoid oxygen in the keg I’ve read). I do transfer under CO2 pressure from fermenter to keg and fill to the very top until beer comes out of the PRV.

 

[couchsending]

Quality should be the same as well. I mean in a way you’re right. Say a farm is known for their genetic producing higher oil contents, than absolutely they have the access to contract directly with them. However As long as you’re getting this years hops and buying from a reliable place that vacuum seals, your hops will most likely be on par.

I would disagree with the quality statement to a point. My sister dated someone who was head brewer for one of the AB High End breweries. I talked to him about hop selection a bunch. He said it was amazing the difference some times. Sometimes the same Hop was totally different even on the same farm and harvested the same day. I’ve brewed with a bunch of hops they’ve selected. Some were good, some were definitely different. Their mosaic especially.

All the in demand hops are grown all over the west now. Simcoe, Citra, Mosaic all started on one farm. Now they’re grown in 3 states. Not only does the terroir affect the hop but also the harvest date and even which plant they’re processed in. We’re they heated to much when they were pressed into pellets, etc.

The 2018 Amarillo and Columbus I got from YVH this year literally smells like a tire fire, they’re horrible.

From my experience the Australian hops tend to be pretty consistent and seem to be of almost the same quality as what the better breweries get. They’re always incredibly potent. From what I’ve read they have some of the most advanced hop processing equipment down there.