Need to go electric...

[Bobby_M]

It may or may not work out for you ... They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

Not really. It's 100% that it will work. Every other position is the same phase so that double pole breakers are able to be installed anywhere in the panel and have them work.

 

[mac_1103]

They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

I'm not an electrician, but I'd guess that the chances are closer to 100%. 2 & 4 have a two pole breaker. 18 & 20 have a two pole breaker. How would anybody ever install a two pole breaker if the phases don't alternate?

 

[Broken Crow]

Romex is solid conductor wire, and it is best practice to wire control panels with stranded conductor wire, especially if you are using crimp connections on wire ends (which is also best practice.)

Brew on

The moment I read that, I thought; "OH duh!! I know that!...or at least I used to know that...it's because ______ ..?" .."Damn! It's gone...Dead Zone." This sort of thing happens a lot; I'm fixing or building something following procedures I've done a million times before and I suddenly realize I have no idea why I'm doing it the way I'm doing it. For those that don't know; I suffered a brain injury in 2014 and I lost quite a lot. It's really bugging me that I can't remember the 'why' in this case and I thought I'd PM you to ask, but since you are the Authority on DIY electrical builds on a site which is used by many folk who 'do something because they read it on the interwebs' without a clue, it occurred to me that sharing safety advice is more important than my embarrassment, so...
Why is stranded chosen over solid-core?

 

[whoaru99]

It may or may not work out for you ... They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

If the panel accepts a dual pole breaker (not to be confused with a single pole tandem breaker) at that position then it will be 100% correct.

Adjacent slots like that facilitate dual pole breakers expressly for the purpose of having the two poles on L1 and L2 in the panel.

See staggered bus contacts for both legs (L1 and L2) in a panel. There isn't really any way to screw it up if using dual pole breakers (represented by red outlines) even if you sneak single pole breaker in the stack (orange outline). It just works by design where the panel accepts dual pole breakers.

Note the example below accepts both thick and thin breakers. I've illustrated with thick breakers. Same applies though, if the panel accepts a dual pole breaker at any given position(s), it will be tapped into L1 and L2.

(Pedantic point follows: despite phase being often used, it's really not a matter of out of phase in this case. It is just single phase so there isn't anything to be out of phase with).

 

[Willy]

I'm not an electrician, but I'd guess that the chances are closer to 100%. 2 & 4 have a two pole breaker. 18 & 20 have a two pole breaker. How would anybody ever install a two pole breaker if the phases don't alternate?

Arranged for dual pole - it should already be properly wired, two 120v , out of phase.

I was merely trying to alert those DIY folks who might wish to combine two 120v plugs to make a 240v ... They need to be out of phase or it can really mess up quick (it'll blow the breaker fuses or perhaps just one, that is attached to the whatever).

Still think it is a good idea to at least understand how it works (and yeah... Use an electrician )

 

[mac_1103]

I was merely trying to alert those DIY folks who might wish to combine two 120v plugs to make a 240v ... They need to be out of phase or it can really mess up quick

Well sure, but that's really not the same thing at all, is it?

 

[Willy]

Well sure, but that's really not the same thing at all, is

Well sure, but that's really not the same thing at all, is it?

Not the same thing, correct. However, assume someone did the panel incorrectly... An electrician always removed that faceplate and checks. Just to be sure.

And yeah, they must be out of phase. It should be wired that way at the panel. But you still check by removing the plate and also with a pocket gauge to further confirm.

 

[whoaru99]

And, to further continue my pedantic ways, LOL, the ubiqutious 240V split phase distribution is not two 120V legs out of phase combining to make 240V.

Rather, it's just the opposite. It's 240V with two 120V legs derived from a 240V center tapped transformer. 240V is had without using the "neutral" (the transformer CT) necessary to get 120V.

 

[Bobby_M]

I was merely trying to alert those DIY folks who might wish to combine two 120v plugs to make a 240v ... They need to be out of phase or it can really mess up quick (it'll blow the breaker fuses or perhaps just one, that is attached to the whatever).

It's a valid point if OP was asking about trying to make 240 volts from two 120v outlets (of unknown breaker origin). The chance of picking outlets that were L1 and L2 is arbitrary. He specifically called out breaker slot positions and they were vertically adjacent and that's why there was a 100% chance of it working.

I'm just clarifying to you why people didn't get your point.

By the way, if you hook up a 240v device to L1 and L1, it won't blow a breaker or do anything. The voltage supplied will be 0V and no current will flow.

 

[mashdar]

It may or may not work out for you ... They need to be out of phase ... 50/50 chance.

I needed a sub panel because I have no vacant slots. Not a big expense relative to the whole job. Got two Nema 6-30 outlets, one outside, one in the garage.

The phasing for a single phase panel goes A B A B A B. Adjacent spaces are always opposite phases.

(edit: Was that a joke?)

 

[whoaru99]

Paradoxical, perhaps. Alluding to two phases, A and B, in a single phase panel.

 

[mashdar]

Paradoxical, perhaps. Alluding to two phases, A and B, in a single phase panel.

Depends on what you call zero. Personally, I'm happy using earth.

You want to really get some people upset? Start talking about two-phase power.

edit:
Novice: 1 phase, 2 phase, 3 phase. No big deal.
Journeyman: There is no such thing as 2-phase!
Master: Well, actually...

 

[whoaru99]

Depends on what you call zero. Personally, I'm happy using earth.

You want to really get some people upset? Start talking about two-phase power.

edit:
Novice: 1 phase, 2 phase, 3 phase. No big deal.
Journeyman: There is no such thing as 2-phase!
Master: Well, actually...

That's why I sorta why I bring it up as not really phases. There actually was (maybe still is) real two phase power. But, the split phase system of topic ain't that.

 

[mashdar]

That's why I sorta why I bring it up as not really phases. There actually was (maybe still is) real two phase power. But, the split phase system of topic ain't that.

Industry nomenclature is A phase, B phase, C phase. But if you really want to get pedantic, there are 2 phases available in 240/120 systems, and six phases available in 208Y120 systems ; )

edit: to elaborate:
AN: 0 degrees
AB: 60 degrees
BN: 120 degrees
BC: 180 degrees
CN: 240 degrees
CA: 300 degrees

 

[mac_1103]

There actually was (maybe still is) real two phase power.

According to the always reliable Wikipedia, Center City Philadelphia and Hartford, CT still have active two phase power distribution systems.

 

[whoaru99]

Industry nomenclature is A phase, B phase, C phase. But if you really want to get pedantic, there are 2 phases available in 240/120 systems, and six phases available in 208Y120 systems ; )

edit: to elaborate:
AN: 0 degrees
AB: 60 degrees
BN: 120 degrees
BC: 180 degrees
CN: 240 degrees
CA: 300 degrees

I do not agree there are two phases in a 240V split phase system but I will no longer belabor the point.

 

[whoaru99]

Double post removed

 

[mashdar]

No, there are not two phases in a 240V split phase system. It's a single phase center-tapped.

This is getting super off topic! But if you have a center reference, you can derive 0 degrees (A phase) and 180 degrees (B phase). This is not as useful as having "two-phase" or three phase power, as you can't use it to guarantee rotation direction, but from a math/engineering perspective, there are two phasors available.

That we call it "single phase" is just jargon built up over the years. I imagine it has to do with windings in early 1900s generating equipment, but that's just a guess.

I absolutely agree that you'd never call 240/120 a "two phase" system, but thats a linguistic distinction more than a technical one : )

 

[whoaru99]

I absolutely agree that you'd never call 240/120 a "two phase" system, but thats a linguistic distinction more than a technical one

Sucked back in. There is nothing two phase about it. Zero, zilch, nada.

 

[day_trippr]

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-10/single-phase-power-systems/

 

[Bobo1898]

I've heard they curb the steam but not the smell

I have had no issue with the smell, and I brew inside my condo unit. However, I brew next to a sink which conveniently allows my condenser hose to drop straight into the drain, as opposed to a bucket that collects the water.

 

[Broken Crow]

So @wepeeler ... It's fair for non-electricians to get confused by phase and such, and though helpful information, it's not something you need learn if you're having a certified electrician hook it up. When I mentioned 'future-proofing', I was thinking beyond just brewing. As far as brew gears go; Having 10/3 as opposed to 10/2 wire provides the ability to also include 110V for pumps or contactor-coils should you decide to incorporate them in a single control panel. Before we get another page full of responses that tell you you can just use the ground wire and one hot for 110V, I'll say that is cheating and I've never been comfortable with energizing a ground...not to mention it really makes it hard to incorporate a GFCI.
If you're going with a 30A system, the Romex I linked to would probably want this;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-30-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2130/100356511
or the GFCI version;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-A...with-Self-Test-THQL2130GFTP/206602329#overlay
On the garage end, the actual recptacle you put in the junction box is largely irrelevant and it could be somthing to directly plug in an AIO, a home-built panel with or without a 110V option, an Electric vehicle charger, plasma-cutter or TIG welder....choose the receptacle that best matches your immediate need, you can always swap it out later as long as you already have the line in place.
Have you made a desicion yet on AIO or modding your current gear?

 

[wepeeler]

So @wepeeler ... It's fair for non-electricians to get confused by phase and such, and though helpful information, it's not something you need learn if you're having a certified electrician hook it up. When I mentioned 'future-proofing', I was thinking beyond just brewing. As far as brew gears go; Having 10/3 as opposed to 10/2 wire provides the ability to also include 110V for pumps or contactor-coils should you decide to incorporate them in a single control panel. Before we get another page full of responses that tell you you can just use the ground wire and one hot for 110V, I'll say that is cheating and I've never been comfortable with energizing a ground...not to mention it really makes it hard to incorporate a GFCI.
If you're going with a 30A system, the Romex I linked to would probably want this;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-30-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2130/100356511
or the GFCI version;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-A...with-Self-Test-THQL2130GFTP/206602329#overlay
On the garage end, the actual recptacle you put in the junction box is largely irrelevant and it could be somthing to directly plug in an AIO, a home-built panel with or without a 110V option, an Electric vehicle charger, plasma-cutter or TIG welder....choose the receptacle that best matches your immediate need, you can always swap it out later as long as you already have the line in place.
Have you made a desicion yet on AIO or modding your current gear?

Thanks for the response. After a lot of research and thinking, I'm not going to wire anything to the garage. I'm going to use a 120v system, most likely the Grainfather. I've left the property manager 3 voice messages to ask if I could still use my propane burner outside, but haven't heard back yet. His response will be the deciding factor on getting an AIO. In a perfect world, I can continue brewing how I currently brew and not have to spend any more on gear, right now. Electric is very appealing, especially for step mashing (which I feel has improved my beer immensely, but that's a conversation for another day lol), as I can "auto" step mash without having to think too much. It's a PITA with propane.

We're not planning on spending a lot more time in our condo, so to rewire just for the sake of brewing doesn't make a ton of sense.

 

[whoaru99]

Specifically with regard to brewing (I think OP stated earlier in essence they wanted minimal input to the condo), a 240V only circuit could still provide 120V through a stepdown transformer. Depending on necessary current, that could be more cost effective than 3-wire cable.

 

[Broken Crow]

While I haven't used 120V systems myself, I've read numerous complaints about heat ramp times which may limit step-mashing ability and just be plain annoying depending on batch size, so read through some of those threads that make comparisons...(or just wait for this thread to fill up more with 120 vs. 240 responses )
Before you completely give up on installing a 240V outlet here's a thought; Reframe the narrative with your property manger:
Where I live there are some subsidies and programs for assisting to outright paying the costs to install electric-vehicle charging systems.... Maybe inquire as to wether you could get costs covered to do just that and use an adapter from a car-charger to whatever brew-rig you decide on.
Just a thought.

 

[wepeeler]

While I haven't used 120V systems myself, I've read numerous complaints about heat ramp times which may limit step-mashing ability and just be plain annoying depending on batch size, so read through some of those threads that make comparisons...(or just wait for this thread to fill up more with 120 vs. 240 responses )
Before you completely give up on installing a 240V outlet here's a thought; Reframe the narrative with your property manger:
Where I live there are some subsidies and programs for assisting to outright paying the costs to install electric-vehicle charging systems.... Maybe inquire as to wether you could get costs covered to do just that and use an adapter from a car-charger to whatever brew-rig you decide on.
Just a thought.

Unfortunately, there's no chance in Hell our condo association will assist us with a rewire. They make us pay for EVERYTHING regarding anything inside. I could ask though...Thanks!

I've done enough research and have a few guys in my club who use 120v AIOs. I can set mash temp on delay so I can set it up overnight and have it ready for me in the morning. Going from say 131 to 145 is typically 1 degree per min. Not super worried about mash to boil time as I always have plenty to do on brew day. BUT, I hear you on the concern!

 

[whoaru99]

Aren't there some AIOs that use two 120V connections for more heating power?

It would mean insuring the two connections were different circuits but not necessarily that each circuit has to be on a different leg.

 

[wepeeler]

Aren't there some AIOs that use two 120V connections for more heating power?

It would mean insuring the two connections were different circuits but not necessarily that each circuit has to be on a different leg.

I came across that last night in my "research". BrewHardware sells THIS

I would have to run an extension cord from inside the house though, as I don't have two outlets on 2 separate circuits in the garage. This wouldn't be an issue, would it?

 

[whoaru99]

No issue as long as the extension cord is of suitable gauge for the current and length. That's easy to ascertain if you know the approximate length the cord would be, and what the current load would be.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've done enough research and have a few guys in my club who use 120v AIOs. I can set mash temp on delay so I can set it up overnight and have it ready for me in the morning. Going from say 131 to 145 is typically 1 degree per min.

Although 120V is slower to heat than 240V kettles, it mostly counts when getting (cold) tap water to strike temps, and later the wort from mash temps to boil.

When using the delay timer to get to strike temps, the only time you need to wait around for 30-45 minutes is to get it to boil.
Good, efficient kettle insulation will help with that, or as you pointed to, using a 2nd heater element.

Quite a few of our club members now use AIO kettles on 120V and would never go back to their old systems.* Their beers are as good or better, and they're winning competitions as before.

Once you reach those target temps, 120V vs. 240V make no or little difference.

Are you going to be brewing indoors in your garage or in a door opening?

 

[mashdar]

I use a 120V system (brewzilla gen 4 35L), and the ramps for strike and boil are not ideal, but otherwise it's great. I plug it in different places depending on weather, kids, etc.

Step mash limiting factor is recirc rate unless you want to stir. E.g. you can't ramp from 146 to 158 in 5 minutes because you physically can't get liquid through the grain bed that fast without over heating the bottom of the mash. I don't put the heat on 100% even when stepping.

Will the extra 30-60 minutes of heating matter to you? If so, the extra heater may be worthwhile. I'm planning on buying a 240V system at some point, probably a more conventional 1V, but I'm still conflicted vs how easy the AIO is to haul around.

 

[Deadalus]

I came across that last night in my "research". BrewHardware sells THIS

I would have to run an extension cord from inside the house though, as I don't have two outlets on 2 separate circuits in the garage. This wouldn't be an issue, would it?

You could add another 120V branch circuit...

 

[wepeeler]

Although 120V is slower to heat than 240V kettles, it mostly counts when getting (cold) tap water to strike temps, and later the wort from mash temps to boil.

When using the delay timer to get to strike temps, the only time you need to wait around for 30-45 minutes is to get it to boil.
Good, efficient kettle insulation will help with that, or as you pointed to, using a 2nd heater element.

Quite a few of our club members now use AIO kettles on 120V and would never go back to their old systems.* Their beers are as good or better, and they're winning competitions as before.

Once you reach those target temps, 120V vs. 240V make no or little difference.

Are you going to be brewing indoors in your garage or in a door opening?

Thanks for the info. I'll be brewing in my garage 99% of the time.

No issue as long as the extension cord is of suitable gauge for the current and length. That's easy to ascertain if you know the approximate length the cord would be, and what the current load would be.

Sounds good. Probably no longer than 25ft. If I do that, I'll be sure to get a proper cable.

I use a 120V system (brewzilla gen 4 35L), and the ramps for strike and boil are not ideal, but otherwise it's great. I plug it in different places depending on weather, kids, etc.

Step mash limiting factor is recirc rate unless you want to stir. E.g. you can't ramp from 146 to 158 in 5 minutes because you physically can't get liquid through the grain bed that fast without over heating the bottom of the mash. I don't put the heat on 100% even when stepping.

Will the extra 30-60 minutes of heating matter to you? If so, the extra heater may be worthwhile. I'm planning on buying a 240V system at some point, probably a more conventional 1V, but I'm still conflicted vs how easy the AIO is to haul around.

I know I'll have to make a concession with ramp up times, but I really don't feel like it's too much of an issue. It's literally only the time from mashout to boil that would be considerably longer. I have plenty of other things I can be doing on brew day! Thanks for the info on step mashing and recirculating. I hadn't thought of that. I could do a combo of stirring and recirculating.

Totally a side question, but I've seen a few videos where brewers mention how clear the recirculated wort is on top of the grain bed. What is the advantage/purpose of this? Once you pull the bag, all the wort goes through the basket/bag anyway. I feel like I'm missing something...

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Sucked back in. There is nothing two phase about it. Zero, zilch, nada.

It is truly a single phase with a center tap, meaning the tap or lead is in the middle of the secondary of the transformer. If you add more taps, say one at 1/3, 2/3 position of the secondary would you have 3 phase? Absolutely not. It's a misunderstanding of electricity. It simple a way to produce 2 different voltages from the same secondary, not phases. The fact that there is an argument about it tells me there are a lot of people with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

It's a little frustrating trying to explain something so basic to people who do not have a fundamental knowledge, let alone a comprehensive knowledge of the subject. I don't believe I would recommend this forum for any electric advise, because you have no idea if you talking to an engineer or an over confident hack.

Stick to beer.

Sorry, I likely pissed off a bunch of people.

 

[mashdar]

engineer or an over confident hack.

False dichotomy! : ) Resisting the urge to hijack this thread more. We can start a new one if you want lol

Totally a side question, but I've seen a few videos where brewers mention how clear the recirculated wort is on top of the grain bed. What is the advantage/purpose of this? Once you pull the bag, all the wort goes through the basket/bag anyway. I feel like I'm missing something...

In theory you recirculate until all the fine matter gets deposited up top, and then the wort drains clear (like a standard vorlauf).

In practice, you get a bit of grain gunk stuck to the false bottom, so you're not 100% free from grain bits in the boil.

But I do get the impression that the draining wort stays clear if I don't do anything too drastic. I guess you could pump to a second vessel and clean the aio out really quick, but I'm usually heating towards a boil before the sparge is even done.

 

[Bobby_M]

Totally a side question, but I've seen a few videos where brewers mention how clear the recirculated wort is on top of the grain bed. What is the advantage/purpose of this? Once you pull the bag, all the wort goes through the basket/bag anyway. I feel like I'm missing something...

If you're going to pull the bag and squeeze then WORT CLARITY is just not one of the applicable benefits of constant recirculation. It doesn't negate the temp stability you get or that you don't have to actively stir the grain when trying step ramp.

Note that if you're willing to run an extension cord to another 120v circuit somewhere, you can also consider a system with dual installed 120v elements. About 5% of the systems I sell are configured that way. I can build a Blichmann Brew Commander for example that switches two circuit independent 1650watt elements.

I know some people are completely happy with single element 120v AIO units but if you ever brew on something with a few more hundred (or thousand) watts than that, you'll write off 1500 watt breweries forever.

 

[wepeeler]

If you're going to pull the bag and squeeze then WORT CLARITY is just not one of the applicable benefits of constant recirculation. It doesn't negate the temp stability you get or that you don't have to actively stir the grain when trying step ramp.

Note that if you're willing to run an extension cord to another 120v circuit somewhere, you can also consider a system with dual installed 120v elements. About 5% of the systems I sell are configured that way. I can build a Blichmann Brew Commander for example that switches two circuit independent 1650watt elements.

I understand the advantage of recirculation for temp stability. That's a huge plus for me. It's a PITA on a propane burner, although I've learned my system, and it's not terribly difficult to do.

I guess I'm asking does wort clarity affect the final product? Because I BIAB now and squeeze, and my wort is anything but clear. My final product for beers that should be clear are definitely clear, with finings (in kettle and keg).

Good info on the dual elements.

 

[day_trippr]

The more I read of all the complicated systems with their endless frailties here on HBT it makes me happy about my simple system that just plain works. When I get mash recirculation going on my 3v2p fully manual propane rig I rarely have to touch a thing for an hour...

Cheers!

 

[whoaru99]

Sounds good. Probably no longer than 25ft. If I do that, I'll be sure to get a proper cable.

14ga cord would easily handle that stick thing you posted at that length.

 

[IslandLizard]

The more I read of all the complicated systems with their endless frailties here on HBT it makes me happy about my simple system that just plain works. When I get mash recirculation going on my 3v2p fully manual propane rig I rarely have to touch a thing for an hour...

Cheers!

That's a bit off topic isn't it?
Besides, I wouldn't consider your system "simple" by any definition.