Need Suggestions for a new 55 gallon system

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After finding out the hard way with a 20 gallon conical that ambient cooling will not remove enough heat, we went with internal 1/2" SS coil and chilled water for cooling. As in most ferment processes when the volume and heat generation goes up the ability of the fermenter to shed heat through the walls is usually inadequate at 60-70 degrees, it needs to be near freezing. Whether you go with internal or external cooling methods you will still have to use something to get enough of a temperature difference to remove the heat. Trying ambient air cooling of fermenters will be a challenge as the ambient air temperature would have be quite low for an active fermentation, and end up much to cool for initial and end stages. The other draw back of ambient cooling is moisture control as moisture flows from warm area to cooler area and builds up on cooling coil as ice. As always I advise against relying on window airconditioners for cold rooms even though they seem to work for a while, they are not equiped to deal with low cooling coil temperatures and ice buildup unless you do some controls work to incorporate a second temperature controller to de-ice, and seal all the openings that let in outside air.
 
So you are placing 25'-50' of coiled SS tubing inside each fermenter and you're pumping chilled water through the coils. What are using or recommending to chill the water?
 
How about this for cheap, easy, and effective?

A closed loop system - 12x12 or so transmission cooler mounted to the wall above the fermenter with a fan and a pump - somehow connected to a SS coil inside the fermenter.
Hell, you could even buy a spare lid or 2 and build "Chiller Lids" with everything mounted directly to the lid - Coils inside, radiator, fan outside.

I would think even at ambient temperatures in the fermentation room, the re-circulating coolant would go a long way to pulling down the internal temperature of the fermenter...
 
We are opening a taproom. This is going to be our proof of concept system. Our business plan has us doing this on the side and keeping our jobs. Brewing on weekends and serving after work.

The plan is to then get the money we need for a larger system after we can prove people like the beer and their is a market for it. We want to keep the taproom, locally distribute, and attach a homebrew store to it as well. With the hopes of us being able to quit our jobs at that point.

We are getting close. My partner is a lawyer. We have some initial investors to get started but we want to take it slow.
Cool. What town?
 
I think the cheapest and easiest thing to do would be use a stainless immersion coil (or two) mounted to the lid. Then use a chest freezer as a glycol well ala Brew Pastor. That is an easy solution that would be effective and space efficient.
 
I think the cheapest and easiest thing to do would be use a stainless immersion coil (or two) mounted to the lid. Then use a chest freezer as a glycol well ala Brew Pastor. That is an easy solution that would be effective and space efficient.

There are a ton of those on eBay too - Just search for "Aquarium Chiller"
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBJ-ARCTICA-TITANIUM-AQUARIUM-CHILLER-1-5-HP-USED-/200484431135?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eadcda51f

If you need to drop a grand, it might as well be able to handle all 6 fermenters ;)
http://cgi.ebay.com/BANNER-MODEL-60833-GLYCOL-POWER-PACK-CHILLER-/320426470813?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4a9ae7ed9d

Here's your beast - They have 6 of them!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pfannenberg-EB30WT-Industrial-Chiller-/110547910823?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bd2b40a7
 
Power the cooling unit and pump continously and use solenoid valve to divert coolant to fermenter. Love TS switches and 110 V solenoids would be easiest to work with, low voltage controls the safest in areas where you expect to washup frequently. If the fermenters have a means for cleaning the coils and internals a SS coil would be easier. If you do not have provisions for a good CIP procedure then copper coils around the outside would be safer as there would be fewer places for things to accumulate and get infected. Cleaning and sanitation problems will wreck your operation so plan carefully and be thorough in the cleaning and sanitation on the cold side equipment and fermentation area of the operation.
 
Power the cooling unit and pump continously and use solenoid valve to divert coolant to fermenter. Love TS switches and 110 V solenoids would be easiest to work with, low voltage controls the safest in areas where you expect to washup frequently. If the fermenters have a means for cleaning the coils and internals a SS coil would be easier. If you do not have provisions for a good CIP procedure then copper coils around the outside would be safer as there would be fewer places for things to accumulate and get infected. Cleaning and sanitation problems will wreck your operation so plan carefully and be thorough in the cleaning and sanitation on the cold side equipment and fermentation area of the operation.

I think I will go this route. Copper coils on the outside then wrap the fermenter and coils in bubble insulation. I am not too comfortable with things inside my fermenters. I just finished dealing with some weird sanitation issues stemming from bad yeast. I want to rule out anything that could be a variable when it comes to bigger batches.
 
Nice thread, best of luck!

If you think you're going to be upgrading to a bigger & better system when you become successful, why not just get a bad ass professional chilled fermenter now? It'll be a bigger investment but will pay off in the long run.
 
You hit it right on the head: It'll be a bigger investment!

We don't have the funds for that at the moment. It would be wasted money upfront to spend several thousand on each fermenter. One fermenter would be 2-3 months worth of rent.

Edit: Thanks for the vernacular. I like the emphasis on WHEN. I like that attitude.
 
If you need a low cost fermenter look for a used milk storage tank from a smaller dairy operation, they come equiped with cooling system coils and sanitary polish and triclover fitting attachments. That might be a cheaper route to start as there have been other startup operations that have used them in the past.
 
I see the conversation has moved away from the whole electrical bit, but just out of curiosity, was your electrical spreadsheet anything like the one I posted here?

If its different, would you mind sharing yours with me? khuygie88 at gmail d0t com

Good luck with everything, I hope to be doing what you are some day.
 
I see the conversation has moved away from the whole electrical bit, but just out of curiosity, was your electrical spreadsheet anything like the one I posted here?

If its different, would you mind sharing yours with me? khuygie88 at gmail d0t com

Good luck with everything, I hope to be doing what you are some day.

That's the same one. Not sure who created it, but it sure has gotten around.
 
I love the logo! Do you do them yourself?

I wish:(...My roomates girlfriend is a web designer/graphic artist. She sat down with us the other night and worked through a design. This is the final version. We also have variation without the lettering. Just the flame and circle. It works well when it has to be a small label.

9.jpg
 
Originally Posted by kladue
Power the cooling unit and pump continously and use solenoid valve to divert coolant to fermenter.

My internal cooling set up works with a continuous running pump, except I installed an automatic motorized bypass valve to protect the pump when none of the solenoid valves are energized.
100_0293-1.jpg


Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
My internal cooling set up works with a continuous running pump, except I installed an automatic motorized bypass valve to protect the pump when none of the solenoid valves are energized.
100_0293-1.jpg


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

I saw one of those LOGO controllers the other day on eBay - It was cheap!
I just didn't know anything about it...

Is it hard to program?
 
I saw one of those LOGO controllers the other day on eBay - It was cheap!
I just didn't know anything about it...

Is it hard to program?
SweetSounds as long the software is version 5 or 6 no problem.
The old software can be tricky.
My old setup was programmed with version 2.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
I went to the post office today and to my surprise, this is what I found. I was not expecting these to come by USPS. I was expecting freight or ups ground.

Well now I guess it is time to get to work. I ordered all my fittings today plus extra ones to make greenmonti's "keg tool". I am excited to get started with this project. I will create a build thread when I get a little further into the build.

IMG_08871.JPG
 
I have concerns that the heat transfer of copper coils wraped around plastic will not be sufficient. That plastic will hold a decent temp. gradient. Plus, you won't have good contact with plastic. Even if the tank was SS, I think you would need to braze the copper on, or make some other thermal connection.
 
I have concerns that the heat transfer of copper coils wraped around plastic will not be sufficient. That plastic will hold a decent temp. gradient. Plus, you won't have good contact with plastic. Even if the tank was SS, I think you would need to braze the copper on, or make some other thermal connection.

I agree 100% our 42 gallon SS Blichmann's temp will go up at least 7 degrees F with only 35 gallons. you have to be looking at 2-3 times that for 100 gallons. And you are in plastic that will not shed the heat as well as SS. I think you must put something in the conical to take some of that heat out.
 
That is something to consider. I am going to start looking into that in the next few weeks. I may have to ferment in smaller tanks and combine them into the 100 gallon tank for conditioning and tax measurement.

I would love to buy jacketed tanks but I don't think that fits into the plan for round one. Round two of investment and expansion will have us buying a commercial system and tanks. We are trying to get up and running and prove we can be profitable then go back to our investors with a stronger plan. We have a deal on the table for a building downtown. We need to pull the trigger by next week if we want to secure it. So my mind has been in other places the last 48 hours.
 
What about this? http://www.glaciertanks.com/Vertical%20Tanks.htm

vertical-tank.gif


Do you think I would have an easier time maintaining temps in this? I just got an email from the company about their Ph level warning on their site. I saw it posted in another thread so I emailed them. This is what they said:


The PH requirements was given to us by our previous manufacture of our tanks for warranty. Last year we switched to a manufacturer that does not have a PH requirement and failed to update our website with that information.

We began selling our tanks for the primary use of water storage. However In the past year they have been used for primary and secondary fermentation of wine with no problem. As well as manufacturing and storing of different types of distilled alcohols with no problem. At this time I have not heard of our tanks being used for beer.

Our tanks have a rubber o ring seal on all bulkheads. We also use FDA approved Dow corning 703 Silicon on all weld joints as a secondary seal

Thank you
Nick Roelle
Glacier Tanks
503-253-5919
Portland, Oregon

This would probably fit into my budget if I can make them work.
 
Three 42 gallon (you can ferment 35-38 gallons max) Blichmann conicals (or other maker) on legs and casters would give you the ability to fill that 100 gallon conical as a secondary. As a primary you would have to keep more head space. If you started with 35 gallons you probably could transfer 32 –33 to your secondary something like that. Depending upon your beer you could easily brew your 100 gallons every week.
 
+1 on the tank. The round one one their site looks awesome....looks kinda like sputnik...too bad your tap room isnt space themed....
 
I think you're right - However, you would have to vary the temperature of the room as the fermentation progresses... Powerful active fermentation could last a day or 2 where the yeast is putting off a lot of heat, but after that you would then increase the temperature of the room to keep the core temp of the fermenter stable.

That's all fine and good, until you add 5 more tanks at different stages of fermentation ;) That will complicate using the room temperature to control liquid temperature.

Again, It's not a deal breaker, just something to be aware of...

On this scale, it my be practical to use a small glycol system and some sort of immersion chiller, or submersible plate chiller like they use for wine.
Because, if you're after repeatability, fermentation temperature for any single recipe needs to be very close to the batch before.
OTOH, I doubt 1 or 2 fermenters out of 6 in a climate controlled room will pull the temperature of the room (And non-active fermenters) up my any degree that the AC units couldn't handle...

But hey, I have no practical knowledge. Just trying to think through it. :tank:

More actually helps keep the situation stable since you have a higher thermal mass to move.
 
Glacier Tanks have arrived. At first look everything looks great. I think they will work fine. I do have a few things I need to do before they get used. The lid does not seem to be very tight fitting. It has no gasket so I think I am going to buy a sheet of silicon and make a gasket. Then I need to buy some fittings and they should be all set.

I decided to go with a chiller for fermentation. I bought 50' stainless immersion chillers for each fermenter. I am going to attach them through the lid so they can be pulled out. I am going to run temp controllers and thermometers to some solenoid valves for cooling.

If I ever get a moment free I am going to do a build thread of the brewery. You can see the progress on our facebook page if you are interested.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/bonfirebrewing?ref=ts
 
Do you knnow how many BTU's you've got going to each? Roughly, anyway. And what about the chiller-- what's the spec or brand-- thanks
 
Sorry I dont have the details on any of that yet. I am building it all from scratch. The chiller will be a pump and some temp controllers that are connected to selenoid valves. I will let you know more when it is all built.
 
Congratulations on your awesome taproom!!!
Your design is greatly influencing my design.
I know you're busy with your new business, but whenever you find the time could you please step through your brew process? It's two vessel brewing, right? So, no sparge?
 
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