Need help understanding my competition feed back

[mwhc22]

So after 4+ years of homebrewing my friends convinced me to enter one of my brews into a local BJCP competition here in Salt lake city. I entered my beer and thought "hey i might have a chance" at something since most people think my beer is pretty darn awesome.

well I entered my double IPA, that i have listed on this forum, in the imperial IPA category 14c by 2008 BJCP guidelines for this comp. I have made it 6 times in the past 1.5 years or so. This was by far my best batch of it. it came out smooth/hoppy/a little malty/and ~8.7% ABV.

well... i didn't do so good.

3 judges tasted it and I got the following feed back...

I'm not too sure there are many barley wines as low of an ABV as mine had, and since well... its a beer and not a barley wine. so i can't enter in that category. I have yet to see an irish red use 3oz of chinook and sit at 8.7% and I have yet to see a standard pale ale sit at 8.7% either.

So what category should i have entered it in? maybe the special beer category? i can't think of anything else to enter it in besides imperial IPA.

I used this description to choose my category...

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php#1c

for this recipe...

15th floor IPA

I'm not really sure what to think about it. The judges contradict each other and sometimes themselves on a few things. A few things im not sure i believe are even true about my beer...and others I assume i will learn to do better as I learn more about brewing.

Since i have never entered a competition before and am new to learning how to refine my beers instead of just drinking them...any and all advice is welcome. Teach me wise HBTers!

 

[dwarven_stout]

Is this your hop schedule?

1oz chinook hops at 25 min left in boil
1oz chinook hops at 3-4 min left in boil
Irish Moss @ 15 mins
1oz chinook hops to dry hop in secondary

Is the extract you're using hopped? If not, that explains the "low bitterness" comments. It looks like the judges agree on three things: your beer was too malt-forward for their taste, probably had some oxidation, and was too light on hops. That says to me that entering it as an Old Ale is a possibility, but there you're going to get dinged for American-style hops and hop aroma in general.

What it boils down to is that you aren't going to score well in a IIPA category unless your beer is hoppier than Avery Maharaja. Go big- because the guy whos beer went before yours in the flight did, and now the judges couldn't taste hops if they were choking on them.


That said, the judge who advised you to enter it as an Irish Red is a little crazy. I don't see how you can taste a beer that's dry hopped with Chinook and think "you know... this would be awesome entered in a style with no flavor or aroma hops".

 

[dRaPP]

I don't have too much expertise, I'm fairly new to brewing, but heres my $0.02. It seems to me that a IIPA should have at least a 60 minute boil to give it some bitterness, maybe even 90 depending on how bitter you want to go with it. As for the aroma, I don't understand why your beer would lack a hop aroma, you had late additions and dry hopped. Maybe Chinook just isn't very aromatic but I've never used it before so I have no idea.

Overall, don't let it discourage you too much. If you like the beer, and you obviously do if you've brewed a few batches, keep making it!

 

[mwhc22]

yeah thats my hop schedule.

normal extract and grains... no prehopped stuff.

I was thinking next time I should try and add an extra 1/2 oz with say 12 minutes left... and an extra 1/2 oz for dry hop. would that bring it up you think?

or should i just go wild and add in a full oz during boil and dry hop with an extra oz?

what can i look for as far as oxidation? this particular batch was in prime for 15 days and then secondary for 6-7 weeks. then i kegged it for 6 weeks and bottled it 1 week before the competition.

could it be that my transfers got too much air in after fermentation was done?

also... if i leave the recipe as is, will entering it in a special beer category seem like a logical next try? My friend said i should just enter the same beer in 3 or 4 categories and see which one is fairs best in LoL

 

[mwhc22]

I don't have too much expertise, I'm fairly new to brewing, but heres my $0.02. It seems to me that a IIPA should have at least a 60 minute boil to give it some bitterness, maybe even 90 depending on how bitter you want to go with it. As for the aroma, I don't understand why your beer would lack a hop aroma, you had late additions and dry hopped. Maybe Chinook just isn't very aromatic but I've never used it before so I have no idea.

Overall, don't let it discourage you too much. If you like the beer, and you obviously do if you've brewed a few batches, keep making it!

yeah doing full boil hops might be an experiment for this beer as well. I bet its as dwarven_stout said though. the beer before mine was prolly pushing twice as much hops as mine and they couldn't taste mine anymore. as far as i know chinook is fairly strong in the aroma area. its definitely stronger than most other hops i have used.

maybe i just made a lesser hopped version of an IIPA then that BMC drinkers will guzzle?

 

[Hermit]

This was by far my best batch of it. it came out smooth/hoppy/a little malty/and ~8.7% ABV.

So why fsck with it at this point? To please some judges that you don't know? Sorry, I don't see the point.

 

[dRaPP]

I agree with that too, most Double IPAs are pretty bitter. If you are going for a more bitter beer to fit the IPA category, I'd suggest a longer boil to add bitterness (maybe doing 1 oz chinook for 60 mins and keep the rest as is). However, if you really enjoy this beer and don't want to change much, maybe just enter it in as a pale ale, even though it has higher ABV than pale ales traditionally do, it might have a closer flavor profile that'll score higher with the judges.

 

[mullenite]

I just plugged this in to ProMash and, unless I'm misunderstanding something, this is what I got:

1.093-1.095 OG and 26ibus...

That is not balanced, that is malty. If this were my beer I would add 2oz of Chinook FWH and cut the crystal in half.

 

[DrinkinSurfer]

It sounds like it is an awesome brew, but I wouldn't classify it as a IIPA. If you are doing partial boils with that high of gravity you aren't getting great hops utilization anyway. Even if you did a full boil, I don't think you would be near the style's IBU's of 60-100+ and that is a big +. I would chalk it up to just not being the correct category, especially because the trend is to push the IBUs to the max.

 

[jaobrien6]

So, I've never competed and don't have the experience of some here... so take this with a grain of salt.

I plugged in your hop schedule into BeerAlchemy to do the math for me, and using Tinseth it comes up with 31 IBU assuming your Chinook is 12%. This, IMO, is crazy under-hopped for a 8.7% IIPA. IMO, you should be up around 85-100 IBU's for that style and that gravity. I'm thinking something along the lines of this, at the bare minimum:

1.5oz - 60 min
1oz - 30 min
1oz - 5 min
2oz - dry hop

5 oz of hops isn't even remotely "going wild". To offset a 1.084 OG in an IIPA, that should be your minimum starting point. You could easily double that to 10 oz of hops, and it wouldn't be over the top at all.

 

[northernlad]

I made an IIPA ~ 1.080 with :
60 minutes 1.25oz Warrior 16.9
15 mins 0.5oz Citra 11.1
15 mins 0.5oz Centennial10.0
1 min 0.5oz Centennial 10.0
1 min 0.5oz Cascade 5.5
7 days 1.0oz Cascade 5.5
7 days 1.0oz Citra 11.0
and it is barely bitter enough with nowhere near the big flavor and aroma necessary.
What the judges are telling you is that your beer is nowhere near to style for the category you entered it in. Judgng from your hop schedule, there assessment is spot on.

If you are looking to keep with just Chinook add at least 1oz at 60 and double the rest.

 

[davefleck]

remember, taste is very subjective however many of the judges comments were similar.

25min with 1 oz of chinook might work but not at that OG. I bet my wife would love that beer. Recipie sounds great but like an americanized scottish ale. Keep your hop addition the same and try one with an additional addition of 1 or 1.5 oz at 60.

 

[Edcculus]

A few things jumped out at me in your recipe -

1 - like people have already said - if you want to do good in the IIPA category, it MUST have more hops! If you really like this beer, no need to change. An IIPA has at least 60 IBUS. You want at least a Bitterness to Gravity Unit ratio of 1, more if possible. 2oz of hops, and not bittering addition will not cut it.

2 - I think 1lb of crystal is too much in an IIPA. Again, if you like the beer, dont change it. Just saying why this one didn't do well in the category. People are generally looking for IIPAs to be a little on the drier side. With all the malt in an IIPA, most recipes pretty much call for all Pale Malt, with just a touch of character malts in some. A lot will even throw in some regular sugars to dry it out.

In short, the IIPA is a big, rather dry and very hop forward beer. Think of it as a showcase for hops. You want malt to kind of fade into the background, but still play a good supporting role. Kind of like a good drummer. If he is doing it right, nobody will really notice him, but the band wouldn't be whole without him. Other beers are about the malt (just like some songs feature the drummer), but the IIPA is all about the hop.

 

[hal2814]

I don't want to disillusion you because competitions are fun, but BJCP competitions are judged based on style. If you're beer has a hard time fitting a style, it will generally do poorly no matter how good it is. Your overall comments indicate that. They don't really know where to classify it. It shouldn't win IPA because it's not one. I'd wager if you had entered it in those other suggested categories the judges would question its presence in those categories as well.

And yeah, that sort of sucks if you have a good beer that doesn't fit a specific category, but the idea is to level the playing field and to take the judges' preferences out of the equation by providing a standard metric to judge against. There is a specialty beer category that's more or less a free-for-all but you usually have to be pretty out there ingredients-wise to win it.

Personally, I start with a style and craft a recipe from there for competition beer and just make what I want for beer I have no intention of entering into a comp. So if you like that recipe, then by all means keep making it, but it may not ever win in any category.

 

[remilard]

Is that the format you received the feedback in? It is fairly terse. If you want good feedback, I would find competitions that use the BJCP score sheet and that attract a lot of BJCP judges, not just competitions that are BJCP recognized.

Is it correct that you put dry hops in the secondary, left that for 7 weeks and then kegged? I think that would explain why the hop aroma was low on a dry hopped beer.

For hoppy beers, dry hop them and then get them in the keg and keep them cold. 13 weeks post dry hop is pretty old for an IIPA too.

 

[JJL]

Is that the format you received the feedback in? It is fairly terse. If you want good feedback, I would find competitions that use the BJCP score sheet and that attract a lot of BJCP judges, not just competitions that are BJCP recognized.

Is it correct that you put dry hops in the secondary, left that for 7 weeks and then kegged? I think that would explain why the hop aroma was low on a dry hopped beer.

For hoppy beers, dry hop them and then get them in the keg and keep them cold. 13 weeks post dry hop is pretty old for an IIPA too.

This was the first thing that jumped out at me. That's a long time in the secondary. By the time the judges tried it, a lot of the flavor and aroma from the hops may have faded. That's especially long if there were hops in the secondary the whole time. That realistically could have lead to some of the off flavors. I'm not an expert on dry hopping, but the consensus seems to be in the 7-10 day range, 14 at the most.

 

[Zamial]

I agree if you and your buds like the brew then who cares what "Judges" think, I would rather brew a beer that I thought was fantastic and all my buds did as well, than to have a judge say it was good. (You may want to stop calling it an IIPA though .)

As the others have noted...not enough hops. I dry hopped with the same amount of hops you used in your entire recipe in my IIPA. (Not that mine was ever judged officially but it has almost enough hops to remove the enamel on your teeth.)

I am going to also suggest you try out some different IPAs/IIPAs that are commercially brewed.
Like:
Stone: IPA and/or Ruination
DFH: 60/90 IPA/IIPA
Laguintas: Hop Stoopid (prob spelled wrong)

and grab a few others that you can find, especially any IIPAs. This should really help you zero in on the IPA/IIPA general idea (these can be all over the place from my experiences...).

It may turn out you really do not like IPA/IIPA beers. I found my Uncle does not like IPAs this last weekend.

Maybe you do like Irish reds and old ales, nothing wrong with that at all. (I love these too.)

Bottom line is do not get discouraged by the judges feed back! Good beer is good beer.

 

[prosper]

I don't want to disillusion you because competitions are fun, but BJCP competitions are judged based on style. If you're beer has a hard time fitting a style, it will generally do poorly no matter how good it is. Your overall comments indicate that. They don't really know where to classify it. It shouldn't win IPA because it's not one. I'd wager if you had entered it in those other suggested categories the judges would question its presence in those categories as well.

And yeah, that sort of sucks if you have a good beer that doesn't fit a specific category, but the idea is to level the playing field and to take the judges' preferences out of the equation by providing a standard metric to judge against. There is a specialty beer category that's more or less a free-for-all but you usually have to be pretty out there ingredients-wise to win it.

Personally, I start with a style and craft a recipe from there for competition beer and just make what I want for beer I have no intention of entering into a comp. So if you like that recipe, then by all means keep making it, but it may not ever win in any category.

What he said. Competitions are about beers fitting a specific (and somewhat arbitrary style) as much as they are about brewing good beer. It's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.

Sadly, this excludes many excellent beers simply on 'paperwork' grounds, and stifles innovation.

The only thing you can really do is enter it as specialty or experimental, and call it an imperial red ale or something. The problem there is that there are so many big, intense beers entered that smaller, lighter bodied beers don't get noticed. Yours has the alcohol, but not the body - probably accounting for the 'irish red ale' suggestion

 

[ntempleton]

I just ran the numbers of your recipe.

15th Floor IPA
OG: 1.086
IBU: 41 (Assuming 13 alpha, Rager's IBU approximation)
SRM: 14

Here are the vitals for catagory 14C, Imp. IPA:
OG: 1.070 – 1.090
IBUs: 60 – 120 FG: 1.010 – 1.020
SRM: 8 – 15 ABV: 7.5 – 10%

While your gravity was within the style guidelines, nothing else was. While technically your SRM was within the range, 14 srm is a dark beer by most people's standard. The "Professional Taster" made the comment concerning an Irish Red, and from a strictly color stand point, was correct. If you take into consideration the SRM and BU:GU ratio of this beer, Irish Red doesn't seem an unreasonable question. This beer and Irish Red both have the same ration, ~.47.

Your bitterness was dramatically lacking for the style. Go back and read the style guide lines, but here's the money quote:

An intensely hoppy, very strong pale ale without the big maltiness and/or deeper malt flavors of an American barleywine.

I'm not questioning whether you made a good beer, and it certainly seem from the Judge's comments that they thought you made a good beer, but it was a beer entered as an Imp. IPA that was clearly not an Imp. IPA. As a judge, it is very unfortunate to give a low score to a very good, but mis-entered beer. But that's the point, to brew the best example of the written style guidelines. If a beer is entered as Style X, regardless of what it might actually be, a Judge has no option but to judge it to Style X. As other have already mentioned in this (and other) threads, brewing for competition and brewing for yourself are often two completely different brewing goals.

 

[mwhc22]

hmmmm im going to have to improvise a hopped up version of this. The thing has a pretty awesome base flavor to it. I want to try and hold on to that but up the hops and maybe alter the hop schedule as well.

As far as the recipe as is goes it kicks some butt if anyone is interested in trying it out. I have even "tricked" some wives and girlfriends of my group of friends to start drinking hoppier beers with this recipe. the malt and hops balance out pretty well so they don't really complain about the hops.

now they are trying other stuff they previously never liked

 

[dwarven_stout]

now they are trying other stuff they previously never liked

cheers for this.

 

[carnevoodoo]

hmmmm im going to have to improvise a hopped up version of this. The thing has a pretty awesome base flavor to it. I want to try and hold on to that but up the hops and maybe alter the hop schedule as well.

As far as the recipe as is goes it kicks some butt if anyone is interested in trying it out. I have even "tricked" some wives and girlfriends of my group of friends to start drinking hoppier beers with this recipe. the malt and hops balance out pretty well so they don't really complain about the hops.

now they are trying other stuff they previously never liked

The problem I see with this statement is that you're not tricking anyone. Your beer is just not hoppy.

 

[mwhc22]

The problem I see with this statement is that you're not tricking anyone. Your beer is just not hoppy.

ummm ... maybe you forgot what BMC drinkers think is hoppy :cross:
as far as the beer spectrum goes this beer is a hopplosion them.

its by no means a hop bomb of a beer... but to a BMC drinker this thing is a massive step into the hops world. Its a good stepping stone into new beers for most people that have tried it. ( So i tricked them )

 

[Clayton]

For me as a brewer, when I first started out I was making all kinds of beer just experimenting, making things I liked and just doing whatever.

then later part of my goal to become a good brewer was to be able to correctly recreate other peoples master work , because only after understating style types, and being able to correctly make a style can you truly be ready you create your own masterpieces

It is amazing how much better a brewer you will become in the pursuit of consistency and accuracy.

if you like the beer , then good job , all you need to do know is accuratly classify it, as it is clearly not an iipa.

i would sujest looking over a few iipa and if you like that style of beer try to brew one.

 

[derekm]

Homebrewers are crazy for hops and this style is the ultimate showcase. Here is a recipe I took second with at my last comp. This is for 6 gallons.

8 lbs 2row
8lbs Vienna
2 lbs crystal 20
2 lbs wheat

Nugget 1oz 60
Columbus 1oz 60
Chinook 1 oz 60
Magnum 1 oz 60
Simcoe 1 oz 30
Amarillo 1 oz 20
Centennial 1 oz 10
Columbus 1 oz 5
Simcoe 1 oz 0
Amarillo 1 oz 0
Centennial 1 oz 0
Citra 2 oz dry
Cascade 2 oz dry
Columbus 2 oz dry
Simcoe 2 oz dry
Amarillo 2 oz dry

You may think this is over the top but people love this beer.

 

[rugman]

don't let this get in the way of a brew ..

if you like it and others around you like it thats all that matters

 

[scottmd06]

Instead of trying to make this already great brew, as you say, fit into that style category, I would invest my energies into finding out what category it would fit in next time. It sounds like you really enjoy the recipe as is if youve brewed it so often. Dont change your brew just so it can be an IIPA, because then it will be a completely different brew than it has been.