Need help on pH meter decision please.

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I'm no expert but the Hach Pocket Pro+ is one meter recommended often and is quite a bit cheaper.

I just purchased one and I'm happy with it so far. Easy to use.
 
It lists the margin of error in the mash range as 0.07 @pH5-9 (pH7 +2/-2) and 0.1 @pH4-10 (pH7 +3/-3). I think that's a pretty high error for a meter of that price. Definitely look elsewhere. If you were willing to spend that much money, which I'm not sure is needed to measure mash pH, you can buy a real lab meter for a similar price with a verified accuracy and precision of 0.01pH.

The Brew Science forum has 3 meters listed that seem to fill the ticket, the Hach Pocket Pro+, as mentioned above, apparently being the preferred one. Most users seem to be happy with it, although I think it too is overpriced. In today's world, marketing price points have become the standard, and have little to no relevance to quality, cost of manufacture, support, etc. That said, Hach simply cannot sell a $15-35 pH meter, although that's probably what it is worth.

Disclaimer:
I am and always have been a sceptic. ;)
 
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While I don't want to recommend meters or brands directly, I do have a number of things that I consider useful to have that a buyer may consider in guiding their purchase. The Bru'n Water Facebook page has a post on pH meter feature recommendations that you may want to consider.
 
I'm no expert but the Hach Pocket Pro+ is one meter recommended often and is quite a bit cheaper.

I just purchased one and I'm happy with it so far. Easy to use.

Jiffster and I compared notes and ended up buying the Hach Pocket Pro + Ph at the same time. We have compared notes since the purchase and agree the Hach was a good choice. I also considered the Milwaukee 102 as a top runner.
 
Appreciate the advice guys. I'm unfortunately in Norway, so that one was basically my only option. There was another one at one other brew store, but it didn't even have a brand name listed or anything that I could be able to look up a little more info on it.

Here's the other one that I can get in my area:
http://www.ol-akademiet.no/produkt/ph-maler/
 
Appreciate the advice guys. I'm unfortunately in Norway, so that one was basically my only option. There was another one at one other brew store, but it didn't even have a brand name listed or anything that I could be able to look up a little more info on it.

Here's the other one that I can get in my area:
http://www.ol-akademiet.no/produkt/ph-maler/

Meters of that shape and a similar faceplate are available all over the place here in the U.S., Amazon, eBay, aliexpress, etc. sell them at varying prices under all kinds of "brand" names or are bundled in water testing kits. I can't help but suspect they all have the same or similar probes/electronics and are produced in China.

Have you browsed Amazon.com? Can you order from the U.S.?

It's very possible the Hach Pocket Pro+ is still among the better choices, although the price point is a bit high. At least the company has a good record and sells pH meters and other pro lab instruments for a living. Can you order directly from Hach U.S.? How much could they tack on for shipping, the thing weighs less than a pound? Or is there a "Hach" in Norway or Europe? I'm quite sure the price and performance will be better than that very generic looking instrument or the other 2 you referred to earlier, which are definitely priced out of the market for what they offer.

The Hach has a replaceable probe, although it runs more than half of the cost of a new unit, it's still a nice option.

Buying a (cheap) generic of Amazon.com seems hit and miss, while those reporting a hit, may not know what to look for or are incincere.
 
I saw the Milwaukee 101 (which brun water suggest to use on his fb page) for $125 with shipping and import fees. He says he's used it for 7 years and it still works great. Might just be worth the investment then.
 
There is a lot to be said for having an analog meter. Its more likely to be consistent since the only things that can change are the probe and the potentiometers that adjust its output. As mentioned, my MW-101 has been solid. I'm sure that the probe will need replacement sometime, but the meter should be good for a lot longer.
 
Appreciate the advice guys. I'm unfortunately in Norway, so that one was basically my only option. There was another one at one other brew store, but it didn't even have a brand name listed or anything that I could be able to look up a little more info on it.

Here's the other one that I can get in my area:
http://www.ol-akademiet.no/produkt/ph-maler/

Consider getting an address in USA from shipping US products! Have a look at vyking.com and consider getting a revolut card as well if your bank charges high fees for purchases you do in other currencies! I buy regularly from USA!
 
There is a lot to be said for having an analog meter. Its more likely to be consistent since the only things that can change are the probe and the potentiometers that adjust its output.
Were there a lot to be said for analogue anything you would find analogue devices in service instead of digital when in fact the brains of most electronics are digital for what I consider to be obvious reasons. Most of the drift in a pH meter comes from the electrode. That said both analogue and digital meters require a high impedance instrumentation amplifier followed, in the digital version by an A/D converter and in the analogue version by more analogue electronics to do the calibration, ATC etc. IOW the computations. It is an analogue computer. Most here probably don't even know what an analogue computer is but I've been around long enough to remember when guidance, fire control, exhaust manifold tuning solutions etc. were computed with analogue computers and I still remember how to design analogue intergrators, differentiators and summers. Does anyone do that any more? Digital circuits do not drift. They have two states: working perfectly and not working at all. There is, of course, a third state when bad firmware is installed but we won't consider that here.


The 102, the digital version, was the right choice (though apparently it was Hobson's choice here). There are no advantages to analogue WRT digital, not in performance, stability, cost or reliability. OK, there is one. If an analogue meter breaks you can probably fix it with parts from Radio Shack. In a digital meter you have to replace the custom chips.
 
As you point out, it either works or doesn't work with digital solutions. When you are integrating a truly analog instrument like a pH probe into some form of readout, it is nice to be precise. But it still requires frequent calibration in order to assure that reading. I contend that employing an analog meter with an analog probe doesn't really cost you anything in terms of accuracy, since both have to be calibrated prior to use.

The advantage of digital, is that an additional source of potential error or drift is REDUCED, but not eliminated. An additional advantage is that you can program all sorts of compensations and checks to help improve accuracy. But in the case of some digital pH meters, those checks and balances can force you to make that hard decision to replace a probe earlier than truly necessary. When you have freshly calibrated your meter and probe in the range of interest, you can get by with SOME level of accuracy. The question is...how accurate is your meter when the probe is starting to go south?

In some ways, having the meter force you into replacing an out of spec probe is a good thing. But if the criteria used by the meter to assess probe life is too stringent, you are going to be buying a lot of probes. In the case of those proprietary probes, the manufacturer has you right where they want you...buying more replacement parts.

While you do still have to assess the stability and accuracy of your probe and its ability to function properly, I believe it is still valid to employ analog meters to measure pH. I don't believe that digital meters are going to definitely provide higher accuracy or stability when both instruments are freshly calibrated.
 
I made a mistake of buying a very unprofessional pH meter and I have no clue how to confirm the accuracy of my measurements with such a device and how to know if my probe is reliable or not. I want to buy a pH meter around 100 $ but I'm not sure what should I go for, MW 102, a Hach product or anything else? I would appreciate if you can recommend some products models.

I saw lately that hach has a new product around 3000 usd which can measure pH without calibration, is any product with such technology be efficient and come to the market at a low price (below 200$) within the coming 2 years?
 
As you point out, it either works or doesn't work with digital solutions. When you are integrating a truly analog instrument like a pH probe into some form of readout, it is nice to be precise. But it still requires frequent calibration in order to assure that reading. I contend that employing an analog meter with an analog probe doesn't really cost you anything in terms of accuracy, since both have to be calibrated prior to use.
Flow meter, density meter, scale, thermometer, gravimeter, sound pressure level meter, flue gas analyzer, spectrophotometer, barometer/altimeter, ORP meter, conductivity meter, magnetometer, radiation detector, light meter etc., are all the same. An analogue signal from a sensor is digitized and standards (of pressure, temperature, pH, conductivity, weight, CO content, SPL, absorption etc. are used to develop the parameters of a calibration curve in accordance with a model. When we had no alternative but to do these things in analogue circuitry we did. We are no longer so limited and can thus
1)Use more sophisticated models
2)Simplify the calibration process (from the operators POV - the actual calibrations and parameter estimate computations are more complex as the digital implementation permits this less burden on the operator.

The advantage of digital, is that an additional source of potential error or drift is REDUCED, but not eliminated.
It is, for all practical purposes, eliminated. The gain of the temperature compensation amplifier may change with time and backlash may interfere with precise setting of the temperature compensation potentiometer (and slope and offset pots as well) but when you multiply by 1.0234 in a microprocessor and that number has been calculated from accurate temperature measurements you always have a temperature adjustment of 1.0234. Yes, that number is quantized but quantized well beyond the point it needs to be in order to have no significant effect on the performance of the instrument.


An additional advantage is that you can program all sorts of compensations and checks to help improve accuracy.
Not only do they improve accuracy but make the calibration process much easier, quicker and robust. You do not have to read temperature for the first buffer, set the ATC gain pot for that temperature, look up the pH of the buffer at that temperature, adjust the offset pot to read that pH, measure the temperature of the second buffer, adjust the ATC gain pot, adjust the slope pot, read the sample temperature, readjust the ATC pot (or alternatively have both buffers and sample in a water bath) and finally rad the pH. It is all done automatically. You don't even have to pay attention to which buffer you are in. This allows you to focus more on the task at hand - measuring the pH of your wort or beer.


But in the case of some digital pH meters, those checks and balances can force you to make that hard decision to replace a probe earlier than truly necessary. When you have freshly calibrated your meter and probe in the range of interest, you can get by with SOME level of accuracy. The question is...how accurate is your meter when the probe is starting to go south?
That's a valid question whether the implementation be digital or analogue. In either case it is easy enough to verify with a quick cal check or if in doubt a full stability test.


In some ways, having the meter force you into replacing an out of spec probe is a good thing.
It is for the manufacturers.


But if the criteria used by the meter to assess probe life is too stringent, you are going to be buying a lot of probes. In the case of those proprietary probes, the manufacturer has you right where they want you...buying more replacement parts.
Not until you want to. You can keep going past the point where the meter's firmware won't give you a cal because the slope is below 95% or the offset greater than X mV. You may want to start looking at response time and stability at this point to see if maybe you should replace that electrode but it is easy enough to continue to calibrate the meter based on its mV (or if these are not available, pH) readings in two buffers. If you have made all the preparations for brewing today (lets make it Christmas day so there is absolutely no chance of getting a new electrode), go to calibrate and your meter says "Sorry, no cal, slope < 95%" you will definitely want to do this as the choice is the inconvenience of the manual cal or no pH measurements. All brewers should have the manual cal procedure in a handy spreadsheet (sounds like a good side-calculator for Brun Water) for this eventuality). I actually do this as a matter of course in my lab work. I haven't calibrated that meter in years. I don't mean that I don't measure buffers. I just do the pH calculation based on comparison of buffer and sample mV readings (and their temperatures). This is actually not a bad way to go if you have, for example, a Hanna pHEP meter which, while it is quite stable, doesn't calibrate properly because it takes the cal readings too soon.

While you do still have to assess the stability and accuracy of your probe and its ability to function properly, I believe it is still valid to employ analog meters to measure pH.
Yes, of course. If you have an analogue meter that passes a cal check and./or stability check it is fine.

I don't believe that digital meters are going to definitely provide higher accuracy or stability when both instruments are freshly calibrated.
Stability is not at issue right at cailbration. It is what happens after calibration that is important. The digital implementation is going to be more stable than the analogue because digital circuits don't drift while analogue ones do. In engineering the goal is to get 'noise' down to at least 10 db below the signal. The noise limit in pH measurement is the buffer tolerance (±0.02 pH in most cases) and we therefore want drift to be less than ±0.006 pH. We want the electronics noise to be 10 dB less than that i.e. ±0.002 pH so that the electrode can be the limiting factor in the equipment related part of the error budget. This is easily done in a digital implementation. If the electrode is the limiting factor then it determines how often we must recalibrate. Not the electronics. A more sophisticated argument in favor of an analogue approach would argue that the contribution of an analogue circuit to the error budget is not appreciably greater with modern techniques than that of a digital one. But I think the big advantage for the digital implementation is the reduction in demand on the user and the robustness of the calibration process. It is clear from the market place that high performance meters are less expensive to produce using digital means and that this is what the consumers desire.

I am reminded of the days (40 years ago) of the arguments that digitally recorded music couldn't sound as good as a vinyl record.
 
I made a mistake of buying a very unprofessional pH meter and I have no clue how to confirm the accuracy of my measurements with such a device and how to know if my probe is reliable or not.
Instructions on how to do that are at
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

I want to buy a pH meter around 100 $ but I'm not sure what should I go for, MW 102, a Hach product or anything else? I would appreciate if you can recommend some products models.
Either of those will do and there is a similar (pen style) meter made by Omega that gets good notes here.


I saw lately that hach has a new product around 3000 usd which can measure pH without calibration, is any product with such technology be efficient and come to the market at a low price (below 200$) within the coming 2 years?

I'd be interested in hearing more about that. Can you post a link?

If it costs $3K today I doubt it is going to be under $200 in 2 years.
 
That thing is much more than a pH meter. It is a multi parameter analyzer that does 4 photometric analyses and two electrochemical analyses at the same time. This is why the high price tag. The electrochemical tests (pH, conductivity, ISE, ORP...) rely on the connection of Hach HQD electrodes. These do have to be calibrated but you probably got the impression that they do not because if you were in the field with one of these PPA analyzers and destroyed the pH electrode you could call back to the shop for a replacement. A colleague there could take an HQD electrode that he had been using on any other HQD pH meter or analyzer, toss it in his car and drive out to you. Upon arrival you would just plug it in and resume testing. You would not need to calibrate it because the calibration (and other data) is stored in the electrode. Put another way the pH meter is in the electrode and it stores the calibration constants, the time and date of calibration, operator initials, time and date of previous readings etc. The box we connect it to is only a display and control interface.

So that technology is available today in the HQD meter and electrodes (and the PPA) but they do not sell for $100. A non-refillable (gel) HQD pH electrode is $230.
 
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