My home espresso experience

[TallDan]

I've had a Rancilio Silvia for over 10 years and a Rocky for even longer. In that time, I've been making cappuccinos for myself nearly every weekend morning. When I started, I'd make drinks occasionally for my girlfriend, now, she's my wife and generally has a decaf americano. After 10 years, switching to home roasted coffee, changing homes 4-5 times, and innumerable other life changes, I started to get an itch to improve my espresso a few months ago.

The first steps were some machine maintenance (I had gotten lazy with some of it over the years) and upgrades. Rocky got new burrs and a good cleaning, Miss Silvia got a descaling, backflush, rebuild of the steam wand, new IMS grouphead screen and bottomless portafilter.

Paying closer attention to the espresso and using the bottomless portafilter really showed that I had been getting lazy with my process too, so I started reading up and got a few more toys, a VST portafilter basket, a portafilter dosing funnel, leveler/distribution tool and a small mirror (so i didn't have to crouch down in front of the machine to see how the espresso was coming out of the bottomless portafilter). I felt like i was starting to get somewhere with the espresso.



In order to get a shot like the one above, I had to overdose the filter basket and tamp fairly hard. That's when the real upgradeitis hit and i decided to look into a new grinder...

 

[TallDan]

Backing up the story some, when I started this adventure over 10 years ago, I bought a Mazzer Super Jolly on ebay. It was used, but had the reputation for being top end for espresso. It also appealed to me because it was a completely ridiculous grinder to have in my apartment. Unfortunately, it was packed poorly by the seller and damaged in shipping. The cord was severed, the doser bent up, and the adjustment ring bent to the point that it wouldn't move. After that misadventure, i decided to buy the rocky, which at the time was considered the best thing you could get in it's price range.

Reading reviews a few weeks ago, the Baratza Vario sits in that spot now. Great value for an espresso grinder, standing up to those that cost twice as much. So, i decided that was a likely candidate unless I was willing to spend a lot more. I also came across a Lyn Weber HG-1 that was used and talked to the seller some. As luck would have it, on the same day that i came to an agreement with the seller of the HG-1, Baratza put some refurbished Varios for sale on their website. I decided that I'd just get both and make some comparisons of my own. I wasn't sure that I could live with the HG-1, but i wanted to get a taste of the high end. It has the same conical burrs that are in the high end Mazzer Robur.

 

[TallDan]

So, this weekend, I bought some coffee from my current favorite local coffee shop/roaster to use for comparisons. (https://talacoffeeroasters.com/) I did this for two reasons, one, I knew I was going to use a lot of coffee, and two, my home roasts aren't quite consistent enough to make me feel like they're a good basis for comparison.

Now, a couple notes on how I've been brewing espresso this weekend for my comparisons. I'm weighing out the coffee both before and after it's ground to make comparisons on grinder retention and ensure I have a consistent dose. I haven't been allowing more than a 0.1g variation if i can help it. I'm putting 18g in the VST basket that is designed for that dose. Coffee is ground directly into the portafilter basket with the rocky and vario. With the HG-1, I'm using it's tumbler, then dumping from the tumbler to the portafilter. For the rocky, the grounds are stirred with a toothpick (more effective than the small wire wisk i have) which helps break up clumps; for the other grinders I've stopped doing that since it doesn't seem to make a difference. In either case, I give the portafilter a little shake with a portafilter funnel attached to distribute the grounds and get them roughly level. Next I remove the funnel and use the leveling tool. Once level, I put the basket in the bottomless portafilter. Then I tamp with the flat bottom espro tamper (supposed to be calibrated to 30lb not sure if years of use has affected that). I carefully put the portafilter into the machine to not disturb the puck. Miss Silvia has a PID controller, and i'm making sure the temperature according to the PID has settled before pulling a shot. I tare the shot glass on the scale before brewing. Each shot is timed starting when I hit the brew switch. Right after hitting the brew switch, i hit the steam switch to keep the heating element on while brewing. Unless the shot is going to overflow my glass, i stop brewing when the timer goes off, which is 25 seconds. I then weigh the shot, and have been targeting a 36g shot by dialing in the grind fineness on all three grinders.

 

[TallDan]

Yesterday, I used the first 12oz bag of coffee getting all three grinders adjusted for espresso. For the HG-1 and vario, this was a matter of starting with a guess for the grinder settings, pulling a shot, and making grinder adjustments. For the rocky, to give it a fighting chance (I want to believe it can be a contender!), I did some popular modifications, putting teflon tape on the upper burr holder threads to reduce play and removing the screw that limits the range, giving me room to go finer with the grind. Using the process in my previous post, i got all three grinders to produce shots that were close to 36g (a 1:2 coffee:espresso ratio) in 25 seconds. Best shot of the day was from the vario that was a ristretto, only about 23g (about a 1:1.25 ratio). The shots from the HG-1 and Vario were all solidly better than what I was getting from the rocky, but i left judgement for the next day.

 

[TallDan]

That brings me to today!

Even though I was rooting for it, the rocky just isn't standing up to the Vario and HG-1. Even after yesterday's tinkering, I'd say the best shot from the rocky just wasn't as good as what I'm consistently getting from the other two grinders. On top of that, the rocky takes more effort to get a good shot. Even with a little moisture added to the beans before grinding (RDT in Home Barista terms) there's significant static in the ground coffee that requires some stirring (WDT in H-B terms) to break up clumps and evenly distribute the grounds in the portafilter. Then there's grounds retention with the rocky, which is significant. Some people remove the spout and rake the ground coffee out of the chute, and other people use "click-clack" lids to flush the grounds out, I've just been grinding extra to flush the grinds out.

In comparison, the vario has very little clumping, and the HG-1 doesn't seem to have any at all. RDT reduces the static in those two and keeps the grounds retention very low as well. Either way, there's much less messing around to get a consistent dose and even distribution in the portafilter with the HG-1 and vario.

Somewhere in reading about grinders in the last month or so I read a comparison between two that talked about how espresso from one tasted "muddled" and the other had more defined flavors. I'd say that describes the difference that I've seen between the vario and HG-1 yesterday and today, but I'd hesitate to say that one is better than the other right now. For some shots, like the one I just had, I'd agree and say that the HG-1 had more defined flavors and was better. However, comparing the best shot from the vario and the best shot from the HG-1 yesterday, I'd say that the one from the vario was more balanced and the one from the HG-1 seemed to accentuate some flavors that made it not as good.

At this point I'm eliminating the rocky from my espresso comparisons. It's not that you can't make a good espresso with the rocky, over the years I've had some great ones. I don't think this was a fair fight though: the rocky is outclassed. The VST portafilter basket that I'm using has a reputation for being unforgiving to grinders, and I'd say that is holding true here. If I were committed to the rocky, I could go back to heavier tamping and a different basket to make the most out of it, but I'm not going to. I am going to keep the rocky around for a while for some more comparison with pourover though. Stay tuned.

 

[bracconiere]

damn, that looked like espresso i haven't seen in a long time! (and are you pursuing a literary career? )

edit: or just drinking TOO much espresso trying to get this right? lol

 

[TallDan]

damn, that looked like espresso i haven't seen in a long time! (and are you pursuing a literary career? )

edit: or just drinking TOO much espresso trying to get this right? lol

Must be the espresso, because I don’t usually like writing.

Since this thread needs some pictures, Here’s my messy countertop where the fun has been this weekend.

 

[bracconiere]

Must be the espresso, because I don’t usually like writing.

Since this thread needs some pictures, Here’s my messy countertop where the fun has been this weekend.
View attachment 615736

damn...is that a tamper on the left with the wheel? or anyway, what is it? and i remember 20 years ago when i was kinda into espresso, i was looking into procon pumps for 'xtreme' pressure so a can basically move water through coffee flour...do you know what kind of pump the Rancilio has?

(and i can see why you were typing so much, i'll have to curl up with at least a folger's and read it all like a book now! )

 

[TallDan]

damn...is that a tamper on the left with the wheel? or anyway, what is it? and i remember 20 years ago when i was kinda into espresso, i was looking into procon pumps for 'xtreme' pressure so a can basically move water through coffee flour...do you know what kind of pump the Rancilio has?

(and i can see why you were typing so much, i'll have to curl up with at least a folger's and read it all like a book now! )

The HG-1 is on the left. Here’s another picture from when it arrived on Monday:

It’s a hand crank grinder.

The Silvia has a vibrating pump of some kind. It gets the job done and the machine is capable of some good espresso. I’ve been thinking about replacing it with a double boiler machine though, I’ve definitely got my use of it and my upgraditis isn’t limited to the grinders.

 

[TallDan]

Playing around some more today. Here's a comparison of preparing shots with the Vario vs the HG-1. Both are 18g doses with the same RDT (small amount of water mixed into the beans) preparation.

First, the Vario. I chose to grind into the Lyn Weber tumbler with both to make a more direct comparison, even though it's more convenient with the vario to go right into the portafilter basket. One note here is that it's kinda difficult to get precise dosing with the Vario. I constantly need to grind slightly more or take a little coffee out of the portafilter to get a good consistent dose.

Here's were it's not really as direct of a comparison though. With the Vario, I need to use a toothpick or something to mix up the ground coffee and break up some clumps. I don't remember if the above picture is before or after some of that, but the below is definitely after.
Dumped into the portafilter basket:

Then used the distribution tool:

Tamped and ready for Miss Silvia:

Now, the HG-1. Side note here is that the HG-1 is much more consistent about getting the same amount of coffee out as goes in. With RDT, the grinder retains very little coffee. Right off the bat, there is less clumping in the ground coffee with no WDT, no toothpick:

Bonus picture here of the ground coffee dropped into the basket, I totally get what people say about "fluffy" ground coffee now.

A little shake back and forth to distribute:

Then distribution tool:

and finally, tamped and ready for Miss Silvia:

 

[bracconiere]

Do you use the scale to weigh the coffee, or the tamp?

 

[TallDan]

Do you use the scale to weigh the coffee, or the tamp?

To weigh the coffee. I just took all of the pictures in the same spot to try to keep the lighting somewhat consistent. I'm using the espro tamper that has a calibrated spring in it to keep my tamping pressure consistent.

 

[TallDan]

Subjectively, It seems much easier to get a good shot with less channeling and spritzing using the HG-1. In fact, it's unusual for me to get anything BUT a nice even extraction with it. On the down side, when the HG-1 is full of light roasted beans, it's not easy to crank it. When my wife is in the kitchen, I'll have her add the beans a little at a time as I crank, which is easier, but making grinding coffee a two-person job is pretty ridiculous.

In comparison, the vario has a motor, which (shocker) is a pretty nice feature in a coffee grinder! I seem to spend a lot of time fiddling with grind settings on the Vario though. Part of this is because I've been using it for drop coffee as well, so I have to get it dialed in each Saturday morning for espresso. But, even after I get it into range for espresso and pull a few shots, it still seems like i'm bouncing around some. I intend to do some more comparisons tomorrow, and since i know both grinders are in a good spot for espresso right now, that should be a little more fair.

If i didn't have the HG-1, I would probably be posting about how much better the Vario is for espresso than the Rocky was and how much lower the grind retention is, but going back and forth, the HG-1 just seems better. Even a big enough difference that the hand crank nonsense seems worthwhile.

 

[bracconiere]

I'll have her add the beans a little at a time as I crank, which is easier, but making grinding coffee a two-person job is pretty ridiculous.

In comparison, the vario has a motor, which (shocker) is a pretty nice feature in a coffee grinder! .

Also for malt mills!

 

[TallDan]

More espresso this morning. About 5 shots pulled with the same coffee as yesterday and grinding with the vario. Even starting today in the right range for espresso, I'm just not getting consistent results with it. Used up the last of my batch of the Kenyan coffee. Then switched to an Ethiopian that i just roasted last night and the HG-1 and within two shots had it dialed in.

Also nice: the Ethiopian is a little darker roast than the Kenyan was, and is noticeably easier to grind.

 

[tellyho]

I think you need one of Batatza's new Sette machines. Then you can test the three against each other.[emoji3]

 

[TallDan]

I think you need one of Batatza's new Sette machines.

I considered it, but went with the vario for two reasons. First, some reading around suggested that the vario with the ceramic burrs is actually better than the sette for espresso. Second, my backup plan with it is to use it for drip coffee, which if i swap in the steel burrs, it should do exceptionally well.

 

[Albert Mitchell]

Hello! TallDan, you told a really interesting story.
And I recently thought about buying a coffee machine. As long as I read the messages, I realized that real coffee lovers gathered here. Therefore, I really want to know your opinion. What is better to buy a coffee machine or coffee maker for home? I’m just not a special gourmet and I don’t drink coffee every day, so I would like to know if the taste of coffee from these two machines is very different.

 

[TallDan]

Hello! TallDan, you told a really interesting story.
And I recently thought about buying a coffee machine. As long as I read the messages, I realized that real coffee lovers gathered here. Therefore, I really want to know your opinion. What is better to buy a coffee machine or coffee maker for home? I’m just not a special gourmet and I don’t drink coffee every day, so I would like to know if the taste of coffee from these two machines is very different.

I don't understand your question. Do you mean an espresso machine vs a drip coffee maker? If so, yes, the taste is very different.

 

[Albert Mitchell]

I don't understand your question. Do you mean an espresso machine vs a drip coffee maker? If so, yes, the taste is very different.

I'm not sure that I mean a drip coffee machine ... Although I am confusing all these names ... Now I will try to find examples of what I had in mind. Sorry for the links in advance, but I want to understand the difference and save some money if possible

Ok, I found site with examples:
Calling a coffee machine, I meant it https://www.coffee-statistics.com/best-automatic-espresso-machine/
And calling a coffee maker, I meant it smth like this https://www.coffee-statistics.com/best-dual-coffee-maker/

Sorry for my stupidity, but I don’t know another place where people can explain everything to me and where I could get really valuable advice.

 

[TallDan]

I'm not sure that I mean a drip coffee machine ... Although I am confusing all these names ... Now I will try to find examples of what I had in mind. Sorry for the links in advance, but I want to understand the difference and save some money if possible

Ok, I found site with examples:
Calling a coffee machine, I meant it https://www.coffee-statistics.com/best-automatic-espresso-machine/
And calling a coffee maker, I meant it smth like this https://www.coffee-statistics.com/best-dual-coffee-maker/

Sorry for my stupidity, but I don’t know another place where people can explain everything to me and where I could get really valuable advice.

Yes, you're comparing espresso machines and drip coffee makers. The drinks they produce are very different. Stop in a coffee shop and order an espresso, a drip brew and maybe something like a cappuccino. Then decide what you'd like to make at home and go from there.

 

[Ruint]

Lmao TD!! You make me want to take pictures of my grind now!!! For comparison purposes...

 

[TallDan]

Lmao TD!! You make me want to take pictures of my grind now!!! For comparison purposes...

Just wait! I have three more grinders to compare now!

 

[Ruint]

You been busy!!! I only have 3 grinders all tolled! 1 for drip or pour overs (the trusty encore), 1 for espresso (sette 270), and now the bun g3 for bulk grinding jobs. I am very interested in your findings though. Looking forward to the coffee porn!!!!

 

[Ruint]

How's that update coming along??? LoL!!!

 

[bkboiler]

Love reading this thread.

Have owned a few espresso machines over the years, one of which I PID'd (unsuccessfully).

Currently just brew a bonavita dripper and baratza encore grinder. A solid budget setup that saves me time since I have 3 young kids.

Had to sell my Behmor roaster also due to kids (not enough time/money for that sorta thing).

Hoping to get a manual espresso machine and manual grinder in the next few months...

Probably an espresso forge and a Pharos ii grinder. May need to DIY a roaster soon out of my induction burner and a heat gun and some basic stainless stuff from IKEA

would love to hear your updates Tall Dan as I'm still on the fence about getting a fully manual machine versus a semi (Silvia with PID is my front runner altho it would take a lot more counter space than a fully manual)

 

[TallDan]

No changes lately, I haven't cleaned up and used the other grinders yet. From my initial inspection, I think they all need new burrs, and I've had a bit of analysis paralysis while deciding what I want to do with them, so they've sat off to the side.

Still doing my weekend espresso based drinks with the HG-1 and Silvia. I really want to get a decent DE1PRO, but for various reasons, I haven't been able to convince myself to spend the money on it yet.

As far as manual espresso, the Cafelat Robot is what I've had my eyes on. Not sure if i'll ever go that road or not, but if i were to, that would be how i'd do it.

 

[TallDan]

As long as FedEx treats me right, I've got a new (to me) espresso machine coming my way.

Also sold the Rocky a couple weeks ago.

 

[bkboiler]

Ooh! Robot coming your way?

 

[schematix]

Fancy.

BTW you should clean the front of your dishwasher. That looks nasty.

 

[TallDan]

Ooh! Robot coming your way?

Bigger

Fancy.

BTW you should clean the front of your dishwasher. That looks nasty.

Yeah. That’s an old picture. It was dirty so I replaced it. Because TR.

 

[TallDan]

Well, the wife is a little frustrated that I have even more countertop space taken up, but I received my v1.0 decent DE-1 yesterday. Just using the basic settings right now, but have got a couple of good shots out of it already. Was worried that i wouldn't like the tablet controls, but so far so good.

 

[bkboiler]

Good thing they named their machine the decent and the decent pro...
They coulda gone with the decent model as the flagship and then released a defeatured little brother: the halfway decent...
No but seriously, pics or it didnt happen

 

[TallDan]

Big day today. Sold Miss Silvia and a mazzer mini. Put in a deposit on a KafaTek flat max. Talking to a potential buyer for the HG-1, and another potential buyer for the other mazzer mini.

 

[schematix]

how are you liking the new machine?

Recently thoughts of upgrades have started to pop into my head on a regular basis. I think the Rocky may need some regular maintenance too. it's been 10 years of daily service without any TLC.

 

[TallDan]

how are you liking the new machine?

Recently thoughts of upgrades have started to pop into my head on a regular basis. I think the Rocky may need some regular maintenance too. it's been 10 years of daily service without any TLC.

Definitely new burrs for your rocky, I put that off on mine for way too long.

...but you can also do way better than that for a grinder now.

 

[TallDan]

Oh, and to answer the question, I love the DE-1. Better more consistent espresso and more convenient switching between steam and brew.
And I have barely scratched the surface with what it can do.

 

[schematix]

what did you settle for on the grinder?

 

[TallDan]

what did you settle for on the grinder?

Not settled yet. When I get the KafaTek flat max, that will be it, but that won’t be for at least a few months. I’ve been using the HG-1, but I think I’d like to sell it now,so I’m going to try the Baratza vario this morning and see if that will hold me over until I get the KafaTek.