My First Barleywine Recipe, Feedback Appreciated

[TheMadKing]

Fezzik’s Unsportsmanlike Barleywine

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 19.3
Anticipated OG: 1.108
Anticipated SRM: 22
Anticipated IBU: 95.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
Amount Name
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.0 lbs. Pale Malt (2-row)
2.00 lbs. Munich light
2.00 lbs. Munich dark
2.50 lbs. Flaked Rye
1.50 lbs. Brown Sugar (last 10 mins of boil)
0.50 lbs. Crystal 55L
0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.30 lbs. Midnight wheat

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 oz. Simcoe Pellet 13.00 A.A 60 min.
1.50 oz. Centennial Pellet 9.5 A.A 20 min.
1.00 oz. Centennial Pellet 9.5 A.A. 0 min.
1.00 oz. Centennial Pellet Dry Hop

Other
Amount Name Addition
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/3 stick (~1 ounce) Moonshine Bourbon soaked oak, secondary
4 oz Moonshine Bourbon, secondary

Yeast
-----
White Labs WY1056 American Ale in a HUGE starter

Mash Schedule
-------------
Mash Type: Single infusion BIAB no sparge
Grain lbs: 19.3

Saccharification Rest Temp: 150 Time: 90

primary for 14 days at 70F, secondary for 1 month at 70F, bottle condition for 3 months before drinking.

This is a combination of several recipes I've seen here on HBT, as well as a few modifications of my own. I'm unsure about the midnight wheat. I was hoping to have a very subtle roasty flavor come through to offset the sweet from the malt and to compliment the smoky from the oak.

I appreciate any feedback!

 

[m00ps]

I think the recipe looks solid but id suggest a different yeast. Chico may be able to get keep going past 10% but I wouldnt guess too far. Look at WLP090 and WLP099

 

[TheMadKing]

I think the recipe looks solid but id suggest a different yeast. Chico may be able to get keep going past 10% but I wouldnt guess too far. Look at WLP090 and WLP099

I chose 1056 because I have a 4th generation strain on hand, and it is listed as a barleywine style yeast on the wyeast website. I had hoped that this older yeast would have a higher alcohol tolerance than fresh 1056.

I also only have access to Wyeast products at my LHBS also, so maybe a 1084 irish ale yeast would be better?

 

[pretzelb]

I've never brewed a barley wine so maybe just ignore me but is that a lot of hops for the style?

 

[m00ps]

hmm, yeah youd probably be good. Whats your anticipated FG?

 

[TheMadKing]

I've never brewed a barley wine so maybe just ignore me but is that a lot of hops for the style?

I don't think so, the IBU range for barleywine is between 50-120+, the american style (which I'm shooting for) has more hop forward flavors. So I think the hop bill is appropriate. I used a similar combination in a black imperial IPA with success, so I toned down the IBU's a bit and stuck with something that worked well for me.

Edit: plus hop flavors and aromas mellow with age, which is required for barleywine, so by the time this is ready to taste in about 5 months, it should be about perfect.

 

[TheMadKing]

hmm, yeah youd probably be good. Whats your anticipated FG?

I'm shooting for 1.018, but I wouldn't be unhappy all the way up to 1.022

 

[GuldTuborg]

You mention maple syrup in the post, but not the recipe. Is that what the "brown sugar" is standing in for? Either way, neither ingredient is going to add any sweetness. Malt adds sweetness.

If you want this to ferment down below 1.020, I'd mash low and long. Maybe 152 or lower. But don't force it to get too dry, or with all the other stuff going on "tannins from the oak, e.g.), it might get a little harsh. With aging, sediment and proteins fall out of solution, and you don't want this to get too dry or thin - barleywines typically are fairly thick and sweet.

Let your time in the primary be guided by how the yeast is doing, and not the calendar. If you want this drinkable 3 months after bottling, start fermenting lower than 70 and bump up to it (or higher) once things slow down. If you want to set aside for long term aging, don't be afraid to go up to 74-75 by the end.

 

[TheMadKing]

II ended up reading that same advice and taking out the maple syrup since I'm not a huge fan of maple.

I'd planned to mash at 150, and keep the FG high enough to keep it sweet.

Won't a cooler fermentation remove some of the ester's that are characteristic of a barleywine?

 

[GuldTuborg]

II ended up reading that same advice and taking out the maple syrup since I'm not a huge fan of maple.

That's probably for the best then, but remember sugar will not add sweetness. It does the opposite, in case that wasn't clear above.

I'd planned to mash at 150, and keep the FG high enough to keep it sweet.

I see that now - sorry I missed it. A FG in the low to mid 20s will give it some sweetness without being syrupy (most ikely). Remember, it's a balancing act with the high bitterness, too. If you finish around 1.016 or something, it's going to come off like a DIPA. No bueno.

Won't a cooler fermentation remove some of the ester's that are characteristic of a barleywine?

Sure. But increasing gravity will increase the ester presence. It's a balancing act. You want to keep the fermentation temps on an upward march to assist with completion of fermentation. Ester overload is fine if you mean to age this for years, but you risk them being overpowering if you have a very high gravity and a high fermentation temp. I wouldn't want the esters overpowering this brew, but it's up to you.

 

[TxBigHops]

I've always been curious, on a beer that is being aged several months in the bottle, is there any point to dry hopping? Won't the dry hop aroma fade away during aging?

 

[TheMadKing]

@GuldTuborg

Thanks for the advice! I didn't know esters were a function of both gravity and fermentation temp, so that's a lesson I'll take to heart.

Do you think that the brown sugar risks dropping the FG too far? I have zero experience adding sugar to a brew.

 

[TheMadKing]

I've always been curious, on a beer that is being aged several months in the bottle, is there any point to dry hopping? Won't the dry hop aroma fade away during aging?

That's a good point. I've seen dry hops on a number of barleywine recipes so i kept one, but it might make sense to scrap that.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've always been curious, on a beer that is being aged several months in the bottle, is there any point to dry hopping? Won't the dry hop aroma fade away during aging?

The best solution if you want the best of both worlds is to bulk age, then dry hop, reyeast, and bottle. You'll be drinking aged beer that's been recently dry hopped.

@GuldTuborg

Thanks for the advice! I didn't know esters were a function of both gravity and fermentation temp, so that's a lesson I'll take to heart.

Do you think that the brown sugar risks dropping the FG too far? I have zero experience adding sugar to a brew.

Ester formation is a function of a good many things, but yes, temperature and wort gravity are two of the larger players.

Subtract the gravity of the sugar from your calculated OG. This is the gravity of malt sugars your yeast will be working on. Mashing at 150 and fermenting with 1056, you might expect 75-80% AA, depending upon how well you treat your yeast. Then ask yourself: is that the FG I want? If not, adjust the ratio of sugar to base grain, or mash higher/lower, to adjust the expected FG.

 

[Atvar]

If you've never done a large grain bill, be warned, BIAB mashing 19# is a pain. Grain + trapped liquid is ~40lb, so you either have to hang the bag to drain or remove a bit at a time. It's been a while since I've done a big beer, but I've noticed that larger grain bills decrease my efficiency. After about 15lb grain BIAB, O.G. increased more slowly per pound.

 

[philosofool]

Pretty objective response: You need to plan about 60% efficiency for a barleywine. The upper limit of wort runnings is about 1.080, so to hit an OG of 1.108 you basically need to boil a long time and (1) waste a bunch of wort that could make good beer or (2) plan to make a beer from the second runnings, usually of session strength. My last barleywine took 25 pounds of grain to make an OG of 1.106.

More subjective opinions: this beer is going to be a mess of overly complex flavors. You need to simplify. When you start putting this much grain in a beer, you get a lot more character from it than you do when you're making a pale ale. Keep your barleywines 92.5%+ two row pale malts (pils, generic 2-row, pale ale malt--anything up to about 4 lovibond), but not the richer stuff like munich and vienna. For the rest, pick what you like, but limit yourself to a pound of crystal (less with the darker ones) and/or a quarter pound of a roast or biscuity malt. Overdoing those overwhelms the senses rather than improving the beer, especially when you have burbon and oak going into it. If this were my beer with all that burbon and oak, I'd make it all two row except 6 oz. of midnight wheat.

I like your hops and schedule. I would chose an english yeast, but 1.056 make a solid barleywine and handle all that alcohol just fine.

 

[TheMadKing]

If you've never done a large grain bill, be warned, BIAB mashing 19# is a pain. Grain + trapped liquid is ~40lb, so you either have to hang the bag to drain or remove a bit at a time. It's been a while since I've done a big beer, but I've noticed that larger grain bills decrease my efficiency. After about 15lb grain BIAB, O.G. increased more slowly per pound.

I did 17.5 lbs with no issues and hit my 1.088 OG target. I've found with BIAB that it is actually able to overcome the saturation issues with traditional sparging by intense squeezing of the grains. After a good squeeze I can boost my efficiency between 10-15%. I also have a rope and pulley system so weight isn't an issue.

 

[TheMadKing]

Pretty objective response: You need to plan about 60% efficiency for a barleywine.

I'll reduce my expected efficiency a few points.

Since I'm doing BIAB, I think I have an advantage over traditional sparging in that I only have 1 running, and I can squeeze the bajesus out of my grains to force the sugars out at higher than gravity saturation. As mentioned above, I hit 1.088 with an efficiency of 76% recently. Either way it goes, I'll be sure to report back. We'll call it an experiment haha.

This beer is going to be a mess of overly complex flavors. You need to simplify.

That's the kind of advice I'm after, thanks! I've seen a bunch of recipes with similar grain bills + oak and bourbon that have won awards so I went with something in that vein. My initial thought when designing it was that it was overly complex. I'll plan to keep the Munich light for my bready flavor, up the 2 Row, keep the crystal 55 and the midnight wheat

 

[TheMadKing]

So here's an updated recipe taking into account everyone's advice

Fezzik’s Unsportsmanlike Barleywine

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Fermentables (Lbs): 21.25
Anticipated OG: 1.108
Anticipated FG: 1.021
Anticipated SRM: 17-19
Anticipated IBU: 86
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
Amount Name
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
17.0 lbs. Pale Malt (2-row)
2.00 lbs. Munich light
1.50 lbs. Cane Sugar (last 10 mins of boil)
0.50 lbs. Crystal 55L
0.25 lbs. Midnight wheat

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 oz. Simcoe Pellet 13.00 A.A 60 min.
1.50 oz. Centennial Pellet 9.5 A.A 20 min.
1.00 oz. Centennial Pellet 9.5 A.A. 0 min.

Other
Amount Name Addition
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/3 stick (~1 ounce) Moonshine Bourbon soaked oak, secondary
4 oz Moonshine Bourbon, secondary

Yeast
-----
4th generation Wyeast WY1056 American Ale in a HUGE starter

Mash Schedule
-------------
Mash Type: Single infusion BIAB no sparge
Grain lbs: 19.75

Saccharification Rest Temp: 150 Time: 90

primary at 65F ramping up every 2 days to 72F by the end of primary, secondary for 1 month at 70F, bottle condition for 3 months before drinking.

 

[JKaranka]

The new grist looks much better but the Munich does not seem to play much of a role. If you want to add colour you can chuck in an oz of patent instead.

 

[TheMadKing]

The new grist looks much better but the Munich does not seem to play much of a role. If you want to add colour you can chuck in an oz of patent instead.

I was intending for the Munich to add a bready/biscuty flavor. Would victory be better you think?

 

[JKaranka]

By when you get to that abv most of the flavour will be malt and alcohol so pale malt is best!

 

[GuldTuborg]

I'll be the dissenting voice and say that Munich is fine in most any quantity, depending on the character you're after. Double Bocks are nearly all Munich malt, so if you like that profile, carry on with it. At the amount you originally suggested, it will be a subtle but fine addition.

 

[TheMadKing]

I think I'll keep it in an see how it fares. If I can't detect it or don't like it, I'll just scrap it for next time.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I think I'll keep it in an see how it fares. If I can't detect it or don't like it, I'll just scrap it for next time.

Good plan. No recipe is going to be perfect for you at the first effort. Brew something good, and keep refining to your tastes. I hope it turns out great!

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Inkleg]

Seems fitting to bump this thread as @TheMadKing and I each brewed this beer last week somewhat based off his original recipe. He and his fiancé came over last Saturday for brewing, beer, food and friendship. Weather was great and so was the brew day and company. I pitched a cup of Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale slurry from a Red I had brewed prior. OG of 1.100 was at 1.015 as I racked to secondary today. Looking forward to enjoying this in the future.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 2 Crazy Sisters Barleywine
Brewer: Naked Cat Brewery
Asst Brewer: Those damn cats!
Style: American Barleywine
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 9.27 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.77 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.103 SG
Estimated Color: 16.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 90.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
17 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 78.2 %
2 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.2 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.3 %
4.0 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.1 %
1 lbs Candi Sugar 45 (45.0 SRM) Sugar 5 4.6 %
1 lbs Candi Sugar 90 (90.0 SRM) Sugar 6 4.6 %
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 61.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 8 28.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 11 -


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 21 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 42.87 qt of water at 155.6 F 147.9 F 90 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 7 min 168.0 F 10 min

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I had a similarly low FG with my Christmas ale. I think it was because I didn't mash out. Were you surprised to see such a low FG with all that candi sugar? I thought that stuff was supposed to sweeten the beer up a little and contribute to a bit higher of an FG. My Christmas ale started at 1.096 and attenuated to 1.016. It was all malt though. Turned out really good, but I was surprised to see such a low FG.

 

[TheMadKing]

I had a similarly low FG with my Christmas ale. I think it was because I didn't mash out. Were you surprised to see such a low FG with all that candi sugar? I thought that stuff was supposed to sweeten the beer up a little and contribute to a bit higher of an FG. My Christmas ale started at 1.096 and attenuated to 1.016. It was all malt though. Turned out really good, but I was surprised to see such a low FG.

I was more surprised with the alcohol tolerance in my Scottish ale yeast. I used brown sugar instead of candy sugar, and I had an OG of 1.120 and a FG of 1.017 in mine. My grain bill was pretty much the same and I used slightly less hops mine. I just ended up with about .5 gallons less volume in mine.

I'll post my full recipe later, I'm about to enjoy a concert, cheers!

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

That makes a lot more sense. I think you will enjoy having your barleywine be a little thinner. I based my Christmas ale on an an English barleywine with heavy Maris Otter. The lower FG turned out to be a nice blessing. I have a sixer lagering for Christmas Day.

 

[Bosh]

Smart to have swapped out the brown sugar, that **** is HARSH until it ages a good long while.

 

[TheMadKing]

Smart to have swapped out the brown sugar, that **** is HARSH until it ages a good long while.

Mine is pretty tasty already actually. The alcohol flavor is certainly there but it's not super harsh

 

[Inkleg]

Are you going oak yours as per the recipe? Completely read by that as I was putting it in BeerSmith.

 

[Bosh]

Mine is pretty tasty already actually. The alcohol flavor is certainly there but it's not super harsh

Yup, using candi sugar instead of brown sugar will do that. Brown sugar heavy beer doesn't taste boozy per se just like molasses without any hint of sweetness which is pretty unpleasant until it ages if you use a lot like I stupidly did when I put a pound in a 5 gallon batch.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yup, using candi sugar instead of brown sugar will do that. Brown sugar heavy beer doesn't taste boozy per se just like molasses without any hint of sweetness which is pretty unpleasant until it ages if you use a lot like I stupidly did when I put a pound in a 5 gallon batch.

I think there's confusion.. I DID use brown sugar, Inkleg used candy sugar. I put 2 lbs in this batch and it's not bad at 2 weeks old. Give it a year and its going to be great! I think it really depends on the recipe. I also like the taste of molasses so..

@Inkleg I haven't decided yet actually. I racked to a secondary last night, and even in a 5 gallon carboy there's too much headspace. This batch came up pretty short on the volume.

I purged with CO2 so I'm hoping it won't oxidize but I'm probably going to just keg it out of paranoia. Once it's in the keg, laziness will probably prevent me from oaking it.