My cider tastes alright, but just...crude. What can I do to improve it?

[Basilisk]

So I've definitely gotten a huuuuuge improvement since the first batch, thanks to advice from people here telling me to switch from the yeast I was using (Lalvin EC-1118 wine yeast) to a Lallemand Nottingham Danstar Ale yeast.

However, my ciders taste alright, but kind of like cheap wine still. My friends say it's not bad, but it's clearly still not like a storebought one. So, I was wondering if you could take a quick look at my process/stats and tell me if there's anything obvious I can change:

1 gallon Musselman's apple cider, 2g Lallemand Ale yeast rehydrated in ~30ml warm water before adding. I sanitized everything carefully. I pitched it on 12/31/2013, bottled it on 1/12/2014. I never racked to a secondary, because I read that big thread where they said it doesn't matter. I didn't add any sugar or apple juice concentrate in this batch.

OG: 1.06, FG: 1.01 (->ABV ~5.3%). I added a tbsp of xylitol (I like it sweet) and a sugar drop (to carbonate) to each bottle.

Is there anything obviously wrong? Is it that I just didn't let it go enough? The bubbling had stopped for at least several days when I bottled it, but does it still do a lot after that?

Thanks!

 

[Basilisk]

Oh, and another question: might the temperature it's at have a huge effect? We have the heating set in my house so it mostly just keeps it warm during the day, so it probably fluctuates by ~15 degrees F throughout the day.

 

[EpicCider]

I'm a big advocate for aging the cider. This cider isn't even 2 weeks old, it should get better with age.

I'm glad to hear you didn't add sugar to raise OG. I've personally never worked with xylitol, so I can't comment. As for the temperature, as long as it isn't reaching extreme temperatures you should be fine with 15 degrees. Would it be better to be constant, maybe, but I think you are fine. Just give it some time to age.

Also consider killing the yeast and carbonating via keg, I think it's the easier way to go.

 

[mopar318]

My fermemting bucket smelled really funky so going to a glass carboy to age for at least a week is a priorety for me. Especially with fresh raw cider, there is a lot of sediment and I'm sure a few coddling moths made their way into the apple cores.

 

[Basilisk]

I'm a big advocate for aging the cider. This cider isn't even 2 weeks old, it should get better with age.

I'm glad to hear you didn't add sugar to raise OG. I've personally never worked with xylitol, so I can't comment. As for the temperature, as long as it isn't reaching extreme temperatures you should be fine with 15 degrees. Would it be better to be constant, maybe, but I think you are fine. Just give it some time to age.

Also consider killing the yeast and carbonating via keg, I think it's the easier way to go.

Okay, do you think it matters whether it ages in the original carboy or once it's bottled? What exactly is happening during the aging after fermentation is done?

I think the taste from the xylitol is fine, and it's a simple solution to having sweetness yet carbonation without kegging. Right now getting into kegging would require more investment and such, so I'll probably hold off on that for a while.

 

[T_Baggins]

Nothing wrong with adding sugar OR EC-1118, I do both with tremendous results!
I do understand we're talking CIDER not wine so adding sugar really isn't relevant anyway so I won't talk about that.
BUT when making wine there other minor additives that MAY help your results. I'll skip sugar and start with the EC-1118, then (for 1 gallon) 1tsp Yeast Nutrient - 1/8tsp Pectic Enzyme - 1 1/2 tsp Acid blend - 1/4 tsp wine tannin
I don't care what ANYONE says, racking is a MUST regardless, but especially if you use the 1118. Ferment in primary for 7-10 days at 72F+- 1 or 2 Deg. Rack to secondary and let it go minimum 21 days, 30 or so at the most then rerack for another 21-30 days. Raising your ABV (adding sugar) may give it more of a bite and get rid of the "cheap store wine" taste ... OR forget cider all together and go to wine! Take it up to 1.080 and ferment till dry for just around 11%ABV, 11.5 max for carbing, then sweeten and carb using your methods.

 

[T_Baggins]

once cleared it can bulk aging is ok but can;t beat the bottle!

 

[mdabbles]

If you finished at 1.01, its likely that fermenting was not through. Priming, you may get bottle bombs. I usually let it ferment at least 3 weeks, test gravity over week period our so to make sure no movement. 1.00 (well, I recently came out at 1.002.

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[Basilisk]

If you finished at 1.01, its likely that fermenting was not through. Priming, you may get bottle bombs. I usually let it ferment at least 3 weeks, test gravity over week period our so to make sure no movement. 1.00 (well, I recently came out at 1.002.

Hmmm. Well to be honest, I'm pretty sure the uncertainty in my hydrometer reading is around 0.01, so it's probably fine. I opened one yesterday (a week after bottling) and it gave a "fizz" sound and was carbonated, but I don't think it was overly carbonated or anywhere near in danger of exploding.

From a newbie's perspective this is very confusing because it seems to be debated among even old timers here: is racking to a secondary necessary at all? Several guides I've read have said to rack to a secondary or even tertiary to prevent "off flavors", but some people have said it's not at all necessary.

 

[mdabbles]

I think you may look at your hydrometer readings. 1.06 is high for off the shelf apple juice _ it should be in the 1.044 to 1.048 SG range, or 11 to 12 Brix, for about 12 pct sugars. No, racking not necessary, but I do it, because I age it, so racking just works well. Like wine, cider gets better with time.

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[Newsman]

There's a thread on this board about Caramel Apple Cider. I made 5+ gallons of that stuff and it's pretty good. I, personally, don't taste any caramel, but I sure taste the cinnamon. It's pretty good. What the recipe calls for is extra corn sugar (not table sugar) and yeast nutrient. I added pectic enzyme to help it clear. Then, when the fermenation was done, you add apple juice concentrate and a syrup of cinnamon extract (or powder) and water/brown sugar. It's very good and slightly sweet. Of course, you have to make sure your cider is done fermenting, and there's no need to add additional sugar for bottling as the yeast will happily eat the brown sugar.

 

[EpicCider]

Okay, do you think it matters whether it ages in the original carboy or once it's bottled? What exactly is happening during the aging after fermentation is done?

I think the taste from the xylitol is fine, and it's a simple solution to having sweetness yet carbonation without kegging. Right now getting into kegging would require more investment and such, so I'll probably hold off on that for a while.

It will age in the bottle just fine. You might have a decent amount of sediments in the bottles, all things considered, but it will age in there fine.

I personally want to age my ciders long term (5+years) and that's when things get a bit trickery about leaving sediments/yeast/sugars in the bottle.

 

[EpicCider]

I think you may look at your hydrometer readings. 1.06 is high for off the shelf apple juice _ it should be in the 1.044 to 1.048 SG range, or 11 to 12 Brix, for about 12 pct sugars. No, racking not necessary, but I do it, because I age it, so racking just works well. Like wine, cider gets better with time.

That also ran through my mind initially. I had some very sweet unfiltered cider recently and it ran 1.055. I could see a good year getting into 1.06, but that's virtually as sweet as it comes.

Have to trust the OP as for OG.

 

[mdabbles]

Yes, he said he used Musselmans cider, I checked a container I had and calculated 11.4 pct sugars, which is in that .044 .048 range

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[Basilisk]

That also ran through my mind initially. I had some very sweet unfiltered cider recently and it ran 1.055. I could see a good year getting into 1.06, but that's virtually as sweet as it comes.

Have to trust the OP as for OG.

Yeah. I mean, that's what I measured, but like I said, the uncertainty from the meniscus, friction on the side of the tube that holds the cider and hydrometer, and general blurriness, almost certainly makes it so it can be anywhere from 1.05 to 1.07 probably. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly? I just fill up a plastic tube with cider and drop the hydrometer in. It pretty much always tilts a little and touches the sides.

Anyway, so is the consensus that I should just let it age more? I don't need to rack to secondary?

Is it possible this is just the upper limit without adding fancier things like tannins/acid blends/AJC/natural flavoring extracts, or is it definitely possible to get a very nice cider just doing what I'm doing?

 

[mdabbles]

Let it age. With 12 days or so fermenting, there's still yeast suspended, giving a funky taste, even though you used a high flocculating yeast. If you let it ferment out, will probably be dry, but carbonation will take out some of the bite.

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[T_Baggins]

Yeah. I mean, that's what I measured, but like I said, the uncertainty from the meniscus, friction on the side of the tube that holds the cider and hydrometer, and general blurriness, almost certainly makes it so it can be anywhere from 1.05 to 1.07 probably. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly? I just fill up a plastic tube with cider and drop the hydrometer in. It pretty much always tilts a little and touches the sides.

Anyway, so is the consensus that I should just let it age more? I don't need to rack to secondary?

Is it possible this is just the upper limit without adding fancier things like tannins/acid blends/AJC/natural flavoring extracts, or is it definitely possible to get a very nice cider just doing what I'm doing?

I think you can get a VERY nice cider with what your doing without the wine additives but I will ALWAYS stick to the guns about racking..DO IT.

The BIGGEST item here not even touched on is the Cider you start with...can't believe we haven't brought this up yet...D'OH!!! I would seriously try some local Orchard ciders. Be careful tho don't just grab the first one you see in their freezer, they usually have both preserved and non-preserved versions. Both will be flash pasteurized as well. Be sure to use cambden tabs tho, some of the wild yeast survives the pasteurization process. You could even forget adding your own yeast and the wild yeast do the trick for ya. Either way, try something other than the same stuff you use. In my opinion , the more brown and chunks on the bottom of the jug, the better! Maybe try some Louisburg instead of musselmans if you can't get orchard cider.

 

[Albionwood]

My cider tastes alright, but just...crude. What can I do to improve it?

Wait.

Give it 6 to 9 months after fermentation is done. Well-made ciders improve for up to 2 years before slowly declining; but that's with cider apples, which have tannin. But even a cider made from store juice will improve with a few months of aging - if you are careful to avoid oxidation when bottling, and don't leave headspace. Cider is very susceptible to oxidation, much moreso than either beer or wine.

 

[mattmmille]

Hmmm. Well to be honest, I'm pretty sure the uncertainty in my hydrometer reading is around 0.01, so it's probably fine. I opened one yesterday (a week after bottling) and it gave a "fizz" sound and was carbonated, but I don't think it was overly carbonated or anywhere near in danger of exploding.

From a newbie's perspective this is very confusing because it seems to be debated among even old timers here: is racking to a secondary necessary at all? Several guides I've read have said to rack to a secondary or even tertiary to prevent "off flavors", but some people have said it's not at all necessary.

Honestly, I'm a newbie, too...just 5 batches of cider finished. Three were all crab apple, one was crabapple/Fuji blend with a commercial cider back sweeten and one super easy commercial Murray's Cider. I have used Champagne yeast and Safale s-04. Every batch was different. The one that was least favored was left on the lees too long and had too much lees picked up and carried over to the secondary. The flavor was off, with an almost "soapy" or "skin lotion" aftertaste. I'm not a longtimer, but I'm firmly in the "rack it at least twice" camp, when it comes to cider. The only risk is clarifying to the extent that you have no active yeast left in suspension for bottle-carbing.

 

[AJCider]

I have mixed thoughts about racking. I've made quite a few gallon batches now with different sugars and yeasts and I agree with those who told you to use the Notty - if you aren't a big wine or champagne drinker you're probably not going to be in love with the Montrachet or Lalvins (I'm not, but reserving judgement until I have Edwort's Apfelwein done).

I also use the Musselman's cider and I've had really good results with the Notty. It seems to really work well with the texture of the juice, so for me personally I would avoid adding any wine-y additional things to it and just let it be what it is: a cidery ale. The only difference in my batches versus yours is I added a cup of honey to one and a cup of brown sugar to another, and half a cup of each to a third (which has already be 'racked' to my belly, that's how good it was). The other two I racked to secondaries this weekend but honestly after taste testing them, I'm ready to bottle them up this Saturday. They are freaking GOOD. I'd say they spent about 2-3 weeks in the primaries.

OG on musselman's does come out to 1.050 btw

 

[mdabbles]

Rack em' & Age Em'

 

[T_Baggins]

Wait.

Give it 6 to 9 months after fermentation is done. Well-made ciders improve for up to 2 years before slowly declining; but that's with cider apples, which have tannin. But even a cider made from store juice will improve with a few months of aging - if you are careful to avoid oxidation when bottling, and don't leave headspace. Cider is very susceptible to oxidation, much moreso than either beer or wine.

Again to the wine additives, you can add tannin at primary and for oxidation add ascorbic acid.

 

[T_Baggins]

raisins or teas can also be added for tannins