Munich or Crystal in IPA?

[FlapjackAM]

Hello all. I going to brew an American IPA this weekend and had a question about my grain bill. I want it to be a fairly simple, dry-ish easy drinking summer IPA with a nice citrus flavor and touch of malt sweetness in the background. I'm thinking about using about 12 lbs of MO, with 1 lb of either Munich or Crystal 40 or 60. My question is- which do you recommend and why? Besides some coloration, what do they contribute to an IPA? I think I'll get the sweetness I'm looking for from either, but I don't have the experience to know which will fit the style better. I'm leaning towards Crystal, but I'm not really sure why; I guess my intuition says it will be less 'up-front' than Munich.

Oh, and I'm planning on using an Amarillo/Citra blend with American Ale yeast.

 

[fatsnowman22]

I would go with the munich personally. In my experience is detracts from the hops less than the crystal malt does. If you do use crystal I wouldnt use anything over 15 if you want the hops as the star.

 

[FlapjackAM]

I would go with the munich personally. In my experience is detracts from the hops less than the crystal malt does. If you do use crystal I wouldnt use anything over 15 if you want the hops as the star.

Thanks for the reply. I'm also curious about the difference in flavor between the two as far as sweetness goes. In what way did you notice the crystal detract from the hops?

This is going to be something I build on and experiment with as time goes on, I'm just trying to establish a good base. With that in mind, does 8-10% total of Munich sound about right?

 

[giraffe]

1 lb of munich is just going to add a touch of bready/breadcrust maltiness, basically to compensate for using a bland 2row base malt. It wont add sweetness or mouthfeel. It will move the color towards gold from yellow. (If you want to know what munich malt tastes like, go drink a munich dunkel from germany, those are usually 80-100% munich malt)

Crystal will add residual dextrins. Adding a bit of body and a touch of sweetness, and depending on the L, increasing color more drasticly than munich, and adding more caramel/toffee notes as the color goes darker.

I prefer a drier IPA style, and would go with the munich. Opinions vary considerably.

 

[FlapjackAM]

l think I'm going to go with 12.5 MO and 1.5 Munich for this one, as for what I have in mind drier sound better. Maybe next time I'll add a few ounces of Crystal as well and see what it contributes.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

l think I'm going to go with 12.5 MO and 1.5 Munich for this one, as for what I have in mind drier sound better. Maybe next time I'll add a few ounces of Crystal as well and see what it contributes.

Just keep in mind that the beer will have very little body unless you add a touch of carapils, dextrine powder or mash at a higher temp. This is not bad thing but I find that even 6 oz/5 gallons of a carapils makes a world of difference.

 

[FlapjackAM]

Just keep in mind that the beer will have very little body unless you add a touch of carapils, dextrine powder or mash at a higher temp. This is not bad thing but I find that even 6 oz/5 gallons of a carapils makes a world of difference.

Good point. I'm trying to keep it to two grains for this one, for scientific purposes. That way next time when I make an addition I can theoretically tell what it contributed. IPA's are generally mashed lower, around 150 right? So maybe 152-4? I don't mind if it's a little light. Would the addition of crystal also contribute to body?

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Good point. I'm trying to keep it to two grains for this one, for scientific purposes. That way next time when I make an addition I can theoretically tell what it contributed. IPA's are generally mashed lower, around 150 right? So maybe 152-4? I don't mind if it's a little light. Would the addition of crystal also contribute to body?

Yeah, crystal (as mentioned earlier) adds dextrins.

There is nothing wrong with light-bodied "crisp" IPA and if you are doing this "for science" do not change your mash temp...leave it where you normally would. The goal is to change one parameter at a time if you are trying to learn the effects of those changes.

 

[cantrell00]

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Dale's Pale Ale (I know.. not an IPA but DAMN close) features both.

 

[iijakii]

If youre wanting a crisp IPA and are using MO as the base... I'd absolutely skip both munich and crystals. Do just a tad of some vienna or biscuit.

You can have plenty of mouthfeel with just base, not sure what the comments above are all about. Not like youre going for a chewy stout.

 

[FlapjackAM]

If youre wanting a crisp IPA and are using MO as the base... I'd absolutely skip both munich and crystals. Do just a tad of some vienna or biscuit.

You can have plenty of mouthfeel with just base, not sure what the comments above are all about. Not like youre going for a chewy stout.

Hadn't considered Vienna. So I guess it all comes down to what I want to accent the MO and hops with.

Crystal 60L (or variation)- 'This medium Crystal malt will lend a well rounded caramel flavor, color and sweetness.'

Munich- 'Munich Malt has a malty sweet flavor characteristic and adds a reddish amber color to the beer.'

Vienna- 'It imparts a golden to orange color and a distinctive toast or biscuit malt aroma to the beer.'

I can see where Vienna might accent the biscuity flavor of MO for a crisp, citrusy summer IPA, whereas the others in varying degrees would be good for a more balanced approach. I know this is all mostly opinion based as there's a thousand different variations, but your opinions are definitely helpful.

 

[FlapjackAM]

Alright, I think it's going to look something like this:

12 lb. MO (82.8%)
2.5 lb. Vienna (17.2%)

Maybe even just 11:3.

Mash at 150, maybe 152 haven't quite decided. Probably minor difference.

1 oz. Citra @ 60

A 2 oz. blend of Citra/Amarillo (divided into roughly .5 oz) at 15, 10, 5, 0.

Dry hop with an oz of each 5 days prior to bottling.

American Ale II fermented at the lower end, 64 F.

Again, just a baseline to adjust and make changes to next time, but I think it will be tasty.

 

[cantrell00]

I recently brewed an IPA that was 75% maris otter, 15% vienna & 10% munich that was very good...

 

[Onkel_Udo]

You can have plenty of mouthfeel with just base, not sure what the comments above are all about. Not like youre going for a chewy stout.

As with many things, it is pretty subjective. I find that any beer without some sort of dextrin contributing item or mashed at a relatively high temp ends up in the "refreshing" (aka lawnmower) category. Personally love that category but not for its body or mouth feel.

Just finished making a RyePA with less than 3% non-base grain (10L caramel) and love it. No body. No mouthfeel. Infinitely drinkable. So tasty.

 

[FlapjackAM]

As with many things, it is pretty subjective. I find that any beer without some sort of dextrin contributing item or mashed at a relatively high temp ends up in the "refreshing" (aka lawnmower) category. Personally love that category but not for its body or mouth feel.

Just finished making a RyePA with less than 3% non-base grain (10L caramel) and love it. No body. No mouthfeel. Infinitely drinkable. So tasty.

Another variable I just thought about was sweetness/dryness regarding the terminal gravity. As it stands it should terminate at 1.018, at the high end for the style, with 54 IBU's. I want it to be dry and bitter but not overwhelming- will such a high FG be a problem? I'm really stuck between Munich and Vienna. I'm sure both would be good and I'll end up using both at some point, but I'm now leaning a little more towards Munich purely for color considerations. I don't think 2.5 lbs. will take away from anything. I'm awful at making choices. Regardless I think I'll drop a pound or two from the grain bill to lower the FG and up the IBU's a tad.

Also, just noticed you're from Hammond. I grew up in Portage, I'll be moving back there at the end of the year.

 

[cantrell00]

Another variable I just thought about was sweetness/dryness regarding the terminal gravity. As it stands it should terminate at 1.018, at the high end for the style, with 54 IBU's. I want it to be dry and bitter but not overwhelming- will such a high FG be a problem? I'm really stuck between Munich and Vienna. I'm sure both would be good and I'll end up using both at some point, but I'm now leaning a little more towards Munich purely for color considerations. I don't think 2.5 lbs. will take away from anything. I'm awful at making choices. Regardless I think I'll drop a pound or two from the grain bill to lower the FG and up the IBU's a tad.

Also, just noticed you're from Hammond. I grew up in Portage, I'll be moving back there at the end of the year.

Have you ever had Westbrook IPA from South Carolina?

It uses 10% munich & is a 65 IBU IPA.

1.018 is a bit high for the style but if you had a OG of atleast 1.066, I don't think a few pts of FG would effect things much. I would just make sure you had a total ABV of 6.5%+.

I would shoot for 1.064-1.066 OG, 1.016-1.018 FG & 65-70 IBU.

Nothing wrong with a 90% base 10% munich bill. Adding 2-3% of dextrine malt at the expense of some base malt would work too.

 

[FlapjackAM]

Have you ever had Westbrook IPA from South Carolina?

It uses 10% munich & is a 65 IBU IPA.

1.018 is a bit high for the style but if you had a OG of atleast 1.066, I don't think a few pts of FG would effect things much. I would just make sure you had a total ABV of 6.5%+.

I would shoot for 1.064-1.066 OG, 1.016-1.018 FG & 65-70 IBU.

Nothing wrong with a 90% base 10% munich bill. Adding 2-3% of dextrine malt at the expense of some base malt would work too.

I had just finished adjusting the numbers before I read your reply and it looks like I'm in the ballpark which is reassuring. 10 lbs. MO and 3 Munich (roughly 80% to 20%) gives me 1.065 and 1.016, with 57 IBU's. I know 57 is on the lower end but I'm going for drinkability. Will probably change on my next incarnation.

Edit: Toying with the idea of using a higher AA for my bittering charge only, like Warrior. Brought it up to 74.

 

[cantrell00]

I had just finished adjusting the numbers before I read your reply and it looks like I'm in the ballpark which is reassuring. 10 lbs. MO and 3 Munich (roughly 80% to 20%) gives me 1.065 and 1.016, with 57 IBU's. I know 57 is on the lower end but I'm going for drinkability. Will probably change on my next incarnation.

Edit: Toying with the idea of using a higher AA for my bittering charge only, like Warrior. Brought it up to 74.

You are hop bursting at 15, 10, 5, & 0 with an ounce of Citra & Amarillo each?

That sounds tasty as hell.

Citra served as a really nice bittering hop on the maris otter/citra SMASH that I did..

 

[FlapjackAM]

You are hop bursting at 15, 10, 5, & 0 with an ounce of Citra & Amarillo each?

That sounds tasty as hell.

Citra served as a really nice bittering hop on the maris otter/citra SMASH that I did..

I may mess with the hop schedule a little still, depending on what I use to bitter. I did initially plan on using and ounce of Citra to bitter but I'm thinking about using warrior now to up the IBU's. I'm still going to use an ounce each of Citra and Amarillo at the end but I may take out the 15 min. addition and add it more towards the back end for aroma to compensate for the increased bitterness. Or maybe I'll just go with 74 IBU's! Planning on dry hopping with an ounce of each too.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Also, just noticed you're from Hammond. I grew up in Portage, I'll be moving back there at the end of the year.

Ping me when you get back around. I am a bit of gorilla brewer which can balance out your indecisive nature.

Not close but I did a year in Moses Lake on a contract job after coming back from Iraq. Miss having Redhook ESB in every grocery store but Goose Island Honkers Ale is close...well, not really.

Back to your issue, stop stressing and pick a route. Keep your variables from what you "know" to one. See how you like it. Adjust for next time.

 

[blackbeer]

my go-to PA is 10lb american 2 row, 1 lb carapils, 1/2 lb 60l crystal, 2 oz chocolate and about 32 ibu of cascade and ekg sprinkled throughout. with my system i get 1.050/1.010. it has really nice caramel malt taste, good head and color and body.

i personally love carapils and 60l for body/malt.

 

[FlapjackAM]

Ping me when you get back around. I am a bit of gorilla brewer which can balance out your indecisive nature.

Not close but I did a year in Moses Lake on a contract job after coming back from Iraq. Miss having Redhook ESB in every grocery store but Goose Island Honkers Ale is close...well, not really.

Back to your issue, stop stressing and pick a route. Keep your variables from what you "know" to one. See how you like it. Adjust for next time.

I will. And you're right; attempting to stop stressing is the story of my life haha this is going to be my 'baseline' anyway, so it's meant to be a learning experience. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[FlapjackAM]

Alright final draft, let me know if there's any gross misconduct for an IPA:

9.5 lbs MO
3 lbs. Vienna
.5 lbs carapils

1 oz. Warrior @ 60
1 oz. Each of Citra and Amarillo mixed and added at 5 and 0.

Dry hop with 1 oz. each Amarillo and Citra for 5 days.

Oh and American II yeast with 2L starter.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Alright final draft, let me know if there's any gross misconduct for an IPA:

though not misconduct, the lack of a recipe is difficult to evaluate.

 

[FlapjackAM]

though not misconduct, the lack of a recipe is difficult to evaluate.

Hahaha I hit reply went I meant to skip a line, you were too fast for me.

 

[FlapjackAM]

though not misconduct, the lack of a recipe is difficult to evaluate.

Added. And the particulars are 1.066, 1.016, 6.5% and 74 IBU. With so many late additions I'm considering maybe cutting out the dry hopping, or just adding to them at flameout instead. That's one of the reasons to hop burst anyway isn't it? I want a very clear beer and the hop mess could be problematic.

Final final edit: 74 was too high for me. I like the idea of using warrior to bitter but I moved up some additions and I'm just going to do 1 oz. Citra/Amarillo at 5 and 1 at 0, and dry hop with an ounce each. Brought it down to 63.2. As it is written, so shall it be. I never intended on making my own recipe for this brew, but when I started looking at recipes none were quite what I was looking for, so this has been a learning opportunity, hence the constant changing. Anyway, thanks everyone for the input.

 

[Hujo]

Edit: wrong thread, stupid phone

 

[FlapjackAM]

Can you post the recipe you would be using without the

Without what? By the way the LHBS was out of Citra and Amarillo which ruined my whole plan, so now I'm going with Warrior at 60 and all Cascade for flavor/aroma. Hopefully it turns out well, I had already made my starter so I needed to use it.

 

[FlapjackAM]

Can you post the recipe you would be using without the

Without what? By the way the LHBS was out of Citra and Amarillo which ruined my whole plan, so now I'm going with Warrior at 60 and all Cascade for flavor/aroma. Hopefully it turns out well, I had already made my starter so I needed to use it.

 

[Dangeruss]

Fast forward to the minute 19 as Mitch Steel explains grain bill formation
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/01/2...e-ipa-with-mitch-steele-beersmith-podcast-96/

 

[FlapjackAM]

Fast forward to the minute 19 as Mitch Steel explains grain bill formation
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/01/2...e-ipa-with-mitch-steele-beersmith-podcast-96/

Hey thanks for the tip, very informative. About halfway through my mash now. I think it will turn out nicely for my first (all grain) IPA.