Moving from Beer to Cider

[SEndorf]

I’ve decided to expand into cider in 2020. First batch – KISS. Here’s my plan and all advice comments really appreciated.

Thanks to @phug for his/her “everyday simplest dry cider” recipe.

Plan on fermenting in a keg with a blowoff on the gas ballock to starsan. Gravity samples taken with a simple picnic tap on the ballock. This way, no oxygen entered in the process.

I'm presuming not much trub comes into play with cider. I could cut the diptube a couple of inches, cold crash then transfer to a second keg. Anyone else ferment in kegs?

A lot of my friends have been asking me to make cider. Much of the batch I would beer-gun from keg to bottles. There’s much discussion about bottling issues with cider; more so than with beer. Anything I need to be careful of with this method of bottling after force carbonating?

If all goes well, subsequent batches would be tweeked.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you have temperature control, drop it to 50°F after pitching.

I recommend good rehydration technique, with Go-Ferm. Mix the Go-Ferm with hot water. Bring to the correct temperature (95-98°F). Sprinkle the yeast. Let stand for 15 minutes. Stir gently. Let stand another 5 minutes. Begin attemporation by adding must slowly every 5 minutes; avoid dropping the temperature more than 18°F within 5 min.

There is sediment created by the yeast, but definitely less than beer in most cases.

I recommend using sulfite to increase shelf life since you're force carbonating. Do you have a pH meter?

A lot of my friends have been asking me to make cider.

Are they expecting the sugar bombs pushed by most large commercial cider producers? (Angry Orchard, Crispin, Strongbow, Downeast, etc)
They may or may not be disappointed (or at least surprised) by a dry cider.

 

[Sammy86]

I’ve decided to expand into cider in 2020. First batch – KISS. Here’s my plan and all advice comments really appreciated.

Thanks to @phug for his/her “everyday simplest dry cider” recipe.

Plan on fermenting in a keg with a blowoff on the gas ballock to starsan. Gravity samples taken with a simple picnic tap on the ballock. This way, no oxygen entered in the process.

I'm presuming not much trub comes into play with cider. I could cut the diptube a couple of inches, cold crash then transfer to a second keg. Anyone else ferment in kegs?

A lot of my friends have been asking me to make cider. Much of the batch I would beer-gun from keg to bottles. There’s much discussion about bottling issues with cider; more so than with beer. Anything I need to be careful of with this method of bottling after force carbonating?

If all goes well, subsequent batches would be tweeked.

I'm all for KISS when it comes to brewing...personally I don't ferment my ciders in a keg...I have a 7.9 gal plastic bucket with a loose fitting lid that I use exclusively for my ciders.

It's true there isn't much trub, although if you flavor them down the line with different fruits there will be left over fruit at the bottom of the fermenter.

Bottling after force carb has not been an issue for me the past three years...i hand them out at work for the holidays as gifts they are a huge hit! If you are really concerned about bottle bombs ive started using the 500 ml pet bottles with twist caps...they work like a charm!

Good luck out there!

 

[SEndorf]

If you have temperature control, drop it to 50°F after pitching.

I just picked up Lalvin EC-1118. Interestingly, their website says 57-64F. Other sources reference a wide range of permissible fermentation from 45-95F

I recommend good rehydration technique, with Go-Ferm. Mix the Go-Ferm with hot water. Bring to the correct temperature (95-98°F). Sprinkle the yeast. Let stand for 15 minutes. Stir gently. Let stand another 5 minutes. Begin attemporation by adding must slowly every 5 minutes; avoid dropping the temperature more than 18°F within 5 min.

I will pick up some Go-ferm..

There is sediment created by the yeast, but definitely less than beer in most cases.
I recommend using sulfite to increase shelf life since you're force carbonating. Do you have a pH meter?

Yes on the Ph meter. I haven't seen much in the cider forum re Ph. What should we be looking for here?

As I stick my toe in the cider, I was hoping to keep it fairly simple. Perhaps not possible. While cider seems much easier than beer, I'm learning some new additives here.
Sorbate & Sulfite still a bit confusing, with some older contradictory posts. My LHBS guy told me to use potassium sorbate with kegging and force carbing.
He said since the cider will naturally carbonate, I need to remove that carbonation prior to keg carbonating. He also said forget bottling from a keg with a beer gun; all I'd get is foam. Better to growler fill from a keg. Any of this you concur?

Are they expecting the sugar bombs pushed by most large commercial cider producers? (Angry Orchard, Crispin, Strongbow, Downeast, etc)
They may or may not be disappointed (or at least surprised) by a dry cider.

A good point I hadn't thought of. They often order Angry Orchard or Strongbow when we go out. Perhaps they prefer that style, or that's all that's available on the menu. I have little cider experience, but had an Angry Orchard once. My eyeballs rolled back in my head. I just know I would prefer a dry cider. We'll see what happens with the others.

 

[bmd2k1]

Welcome to the Cider-Side!


I'm a semi to sweet cider fan and use a cold crashing and refrigeration protocol to consistently achieve this without pasteurization or chemicals.

Lotsa Great cider peeps here with various approaches to awesome ciders.

Cheers & Good Luck

 

[RPh_Guy]

The flavor/aroma compounds in cider are volatile. By lowering the temperature, you prevent loss of flavor. The lower the better.
EC-1118 will ferment rapidly even at 50°F, and generally won't give off-flavors.
I use this strain a lot.

Sulfite does two things: it prevents oxidation, and it inhibits bacteria and wild yeast. The anti-microbial effect is from the molecular SO2, which is dependent on pH. Generally you want free sulfite in the 30-100ppm range and molecular SO2 in the 0.4-0.8ppm range.
I recommend this calculator:
http://www.fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html

Potassium sorbate inhibits yeast replication. You only need it if you plan to add fermentable sugar for back-sweetening. To use it, you first need to separate the cider from the yeast.
Sorbate should never be used without sulfite as well.

You certainly don't need sulfite, but there are advantages to using it in some circumstances. You can also skip the Go-Ferm and rehydration if you really want to keep it simple. I'm just recommending best practices.

You do not need to degas before force carbonating. That's just stupid. ... And cider foams a lot less than beer because there's waaay less protein.

I love dry cider. I hope you and your friends will too. It doesn't go completely dry because apples have sorbitol, an unfermentable sugar. I perceive naturally "dry" cider as semi-dry instead of fully dry, and that sweetness is plenty for my taste.

Cheers

 

[SEndorf]

Once again, I appreciate your input.
Of course, I will follow your recommendations. While the LHBS guy was well intended, he doesn't have the devil in the details.....

 

[MarkKF]

KISS - leave the lid off and cover with a towel. When it slows put the lid on - bright tank!

 

[madscientist451]

Cider wants to make itself, the process and equipment isn't the most important part; If you start with decent apples and/or juice you can ferment it in an open bucket and siphon it to gallon jugs and you'll have decent cider. If you start with crappy juice, you can't expect your cider to be very good no matter what you do to it.

 

[SEndorf]

It does seem making cider is not horribly complicated, or at least as complicated as you choose to make it.
I think my maiden cider voyage will include the proper juice, go-ferm, and a proper amount of sulfite.
Anxious to ty this out in a couple of weeks.

 

[applescrap]

I ferment in the the 1g jugs I buy it in, as long as its bpa free. I dump a little out and add yeast and nutrient. Then backsweeten with organic. Blackcherry juice. I have two recipes worth a look, daddys juice and daddys orchard. I used a different yeast and it didnt ferment as dry. While more enjoyable to drink on its own, not liking it in daddys juice that much. I think for backsweetened juice of another flavor a drier cider is nice. But yeah super tasty and easy. I now keep one keg of hb and one of cider. I like to drink it while noshing on cheeses.

 

[bernardsmith]

Your yeast of choice is a little like using a sledge hammer to open a walnut. Sure , it'll work but you won't have much of the walnut left to enjoy. Some yeasts work well with apples and some yeast rip through fruit sugars without enhancing flavors or mouthfeel. EC -1118 is one of the latter. 71B has an affinity for apples, and although I have never used this, White Labs cultures a yeast, WLP 775 which they say was developed for cider makers. Brewers seem to like Safale yeasts for making ciders but then they also view the hydrogen sulfide (AKA rhino farts) that their ciders are awash in as perfectly normal.. so go figger. You (or your friends) may not be ready for scrumpy but good quality farmers market apple juice can make a great tasting cider that is fermented using only the indigenous ("wild") yeasts in the juice. Bottom line, cider making is not rocket science but your choice of yeast should not be an afterthought.
Oh, and a last thought: if you buy commercially pressed juice just check to make certain that the juice has not been doused in sorbates. Nothing you do will get that juice fermented.

 

[lump42]

Oh, and a last thought: if you buy commercially pressed juice just check to make certain that the juice has not been doused in sorbates. Nothing you do will get that juice fermented.

You can ferment it, though you should avoid it still. It just takes a bigger yeast pitch. Sorbate just stops the cells from dividing not fermenting. My wife did me a favor and picked up a few sorbated gallons to turn into hard cider. I pitched an entire 11.5g packet at 1.5 gallons. It wasn't great cider.

 

[SEndorf]

Thank you for your additional thoughts.
Like beer, many varying opinions on yeast. EC-1118 is quite popular as with the others you mentioned. A few cider-ers don't seem to like Safale.
I plan on a lot of experimenting. Nice that you don't need much equipment, or like @applescrap no equipment at all !

 

[applescrap]

I really like the way you put this about yeast. My experiences led me to this conclusion but I hadnt quite put my finger on it. Thanks for making a simple but clear insight into the art of cider making. I see now, why the cold ferments and yeast considerations. Also I see a use for different made ciders. To op, you will gather this knowledge with time too! Try many different cider yeasts and different ways and you will no doubt find whatever it is you like best. If you already know, start there and maybe work out.

Your yeast of choice is a little like using a sledge hammer to open a walnut. Sure , it'll work but you won't have much of the walnut left to enjoy. Some yeasts work well with apples and some yeast rip through fruit sugars without enhancing flavors or mouthfeel. EC -1118 is one of the latter. 71B has an affinity for apples, and although I have never used this, White Labs cultures a yeast, WLP 775 which they say was developed for cider makers. Brewers seem to like Safale yeasts for making ciders but then they also view the hydrogen sulfide (AKA rhino farts) that their ciders are awash in as perfectly normal.. so go figger. You (or your friends) may not be ready for scrumpy but good quality farmers market apple juice can make a great tasting cider that is fermented using only the indigenous ("wild") yeasts in the juice. Bottom line, cider making is not rocket science but your choice of yeast should not be an afterthought.
Oh, and a last thought: if you buy commercially pressed juice just check to make certain that the juice has not been doused in sorbates. Nothing you do will get that juice fermented.

 

[applescrap]

Yep, and feeling a razz coming on for being lazy, I preempted naysayers by realizing that this was infact an excellent system. I argued that no good could come from removimg the juice from its safe sanitized home. I theorized that removing the juice could only a oxidize it and b put it at some sanitary compromise, albeit little. But then one post changed my mind. It could leach chemicals as a stronger solvent once fermented. But since they are in hdpe now, that fear is all but gone and I remain firm that no good comes from removing the juice. A drilled airlock in lid would be better I am sure, but in the spirit of kiss I thought I would share. Cant wait to see what you do. Many I see add sugar and make stronger, and some feeeze until applejack. I love the stuff and its not uncommon to find me on the golf course with a big bottle of it.

Thank you for your additional thoughts.
Like beer, many varying opinions on yeast. EC-1118 is quite popular as with the others you mentioned. A few cider-ers don't seem to like Safale.
I plan on a lot of experimenting. Nice that you don't need much equipment, or like @applescrap no equipment at all !

 

[teddyearp]

Another welcome to the cider side. I've used EC-1118 a lot and in some ways, still sort of prefer it. I am way new to this, make one gallon batches at a time and only have about 10 batches in total, that last to be bottled this weekend.

I am kind of leaning back towards using EC-1118 because everything else I have been doing is kind of leading me back to those sugar bomb style strongbow/angry orchard/Redd's stuff. Funny side note, I read the packaging better and Angry Orchard says, 'blended' something or other and Redd's Apple Ale says 'beer with apple flavor'.

My first couple of batches I used EC-1118 over a cup of sugar in Great Value Juice from concentrate, bottle carbonated with just a tiny bit of juice added back and maybe 1.1 Tbsp sugar. Comes out about 10-11% ABV, dry with just enough of a hint of apple to know where it came from and sparkly.

 

[whovous]

Do you want the simplest method? Drop the temp to 50F and wait for 30 days. That's it. No yeast, no nothing. Your cider will ferment itself. It will ferment a lot faster at 70F, but it won't taste very good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Drop the temp to 50F and wait for 30 days. That's it. No yeast, no nothing.

You're missing important caveats: this only works if the juice is unpasteurized, and results are somewhat unpredictable and unreproducible.

Your yeast of choice is a little like using a sledge hammer to open a walnut.

That's a really poor analogy. A sledgehammer is not designed to open a walnut.
On the other hand, practically any commercial wine yeast (and even beer yeast) is suited for making a decent cider.

Which yeast you prefer is partly matter of personal taste, but also depends on your process.

If you let a strong fermenting strain run free with uncontrolled temperature and high nitrogen, you may indeed lose apple flavor. If you DO control temperature, EC-1118 can definitely make an excellent cider, and it's one of my favorites.

EC-1118 is one of a handful of strains recommended by renowned cidermaking author Claude Jolicoeur, so it's clearly not the horrible choice you're suggesting it is.

 

[whovous]

You're missing important caveats: this only works if the juice is unpasteurized, and results are somewhat unpredictable and unreproducible.

I assumed we were using only unpasteurized juice. Anxo Cidery in DC makes a fair portion of their cider this way with Gold Rush apples. I used their process (50F for 30 days) and their juice and got the same very dry result. It aged nicely as well.

 

[SEndorf]

Assuming pasteurized apple juice, am I correct that there is no need for potassium metabisulphate prior to fermentation?
It appears this would be added at the end of fermentation, prior to kegging?

 

[Maylar]

Yes on both counts.

 

[SEndorf]

Go-ferm arrived via shipment today. Holy moly...this stuff really stinks horrible!
2.5 Gallon batch:
I had 2.5 Gallons of Motts apple juice in fermenter (still in their containers) cooling to 50F

1/3 Cup RO water in sanitized Pyrex beaker and microwaved to boil.
Cooled to 110F and added 6.25 Grams Go-Ferm
Cooled to 104F and added 5Gram packet of EC-1118 yeast.
Set 15 minutes, stirred, set another 5 minutes, stirred periodically and checked temp. Though I did not notice any visible changes, at 82F began attemporation with 1/3 C apple juice.
At 68F poured apple juice in better bottle fermenter and added yeast mixture. Fermenting at 50F
We'll see how it goes...

 

[SEndorf]

According to the calculator provided by @RPh_Guy , 0.50 gram of potassium metabisulphite should be added when racking to keg.

 

[RPh_Guy]

FYI (I can't tell from your post whether you did this or not):
Start attemporating with must (juice) after 15-20 minutes. It's harmful to leave the yeast sit longer without sugar.
You don't want to drop the temp more than 18°F over 5 minutes. Slower adjustments help avoid thermal, osmotic, and acid shock.

EC-1118 is very hardy so I'm sure it'll be fine, especially with a double pitch.

According to the calculator provided by @RPh_Guy , 0.50 gram of potassium metabisulphite should be added when racking to keg.

Sounds reasonable.

Hope it works out ok.

 

[SEndorf]

FYI (I can't tell from your post whether you did this or not):
Start attemporating with must (juice) after 15-20 minutes. It's harmful to leave the yeast sit longer without sugar.
You don't want to drop the temp more than 18°F over 5 minutes. Slower adjustments help avoid thermal, osmotic, and acid shock.

EC-1118 is very hardy so I'm sure it'll be fine, especially with a double pitch.


Sounds reasonable.

Hope it works out ok.

Yes! I read you must start attemporating before 30 minutes.
At 20 minutes I added juice which effectively "stops the clock" on starving the yeast.
The temp drop was slow from that point.

 

[SEndorf]

Hmmm..
Nothing after 24 hours. I thought this yeast was a crotch rocket..
I was careful and did this by the book.
Checking a couple of items..
I bought go-ferm on the net. Company called Cellar Science. I know it's made from dead yeast, but this smells like road kill. Normal? It has no date.
The apple juice is Motts. Pasteurized, made from concentrate. No additives other than ascorbic acid.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Go-Ferm is exclusively produced by Scott Labs. It does smell a kinda bad, but I've never had any problems with it.

I believe Cellar Science is the just label (or maybe a subsidiary?) used by MoreBeer/Brewmaster when they repackage stuff.

Surprised it hasn't started yet, but I would give it another 24 hours before worrying about it. Was it showing activity as you were attemporating?

 

[applescrap]

Way to get one going! Plan sounds great and well researched. What does all of those techniques add? Curious. Haha, my first cider thread same comments about yeast nutrients. That stuff stinks doesnt it. I think its made with pee or at least mine is. Iirc ec 1118 will eat through all. Is your plan to ferment cold and stop fermentation early to leave some sugar?

From my experience you may need sorbate and sulfites to really stop fermentation right where you want, but I guess pot sulfite and cold would work. Granted I dont know jack squat but I am very sensitive to fermentation taste and smell and I can taste any little fermentation happening and sulphite and sorbate were needed. I guess this could be different if not backsweetening, but I dont see the harm in the guarantee. But I dont know Jack squat, other than experience. Are you going to drink semi sweet or backsweeten? I assume semi sweet. I used a different yeast last batch and it stopped at 1.020 or 1.010 cant remember. Its the lalvin k1 v1116. If you like semi sweet this went right to a meduium like this article says. Best of luck.

https://medium.com/simple-wine/three-great-yeasts-for-hard-cider-c159ff082e0c

 

[SEndorf]

Was it showing activity as you were attemporating?

No activity. And I was careful to keep temps in range. In hindsight, difficult to do with 1/3 Cup water. I was going by instructions but next time I'll use more water.

Progress this morning. Seeing a very thin layer of white foam. 50F probably slows it down a bit too.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Here's my process; take from it what you will.

Prepare the rehydration solution:
I measure the Go-Ferm (1.25x the weight of yeast) in a 500mL borosilicate beaker. The large beaker provides lots of surface area.
I add the RO water (20x the weight of Go-Ferm) measured with a graduated cylinder.
I stir to dissolve with a glass stir rod.

Make a water bath to help hold the temperature:
I run tap water until it's about 99°F and I use that to fill a small bucket. In the bucket there's a little platform made from a vegetable steamer. This increases the amount of water in the water bath (increasing thermal mass) and allows water to circulate under the bottom of the beaker.
I heat the rehydration solution in a microwave in very short bursts (like 2-3 seconds) until it's 99°F. A rapid digital thermometer is very helpful for this.
I pour water out of the bucket so that there's not too much. I don't want my beaker floating.
I put the beaker in the bucket. Now they're both approximately 99°F.

Rehydration:
I sprinkle in the yeast after sanitizing the packet and scissors.
It sits undisturbed for 15 minutes. There are no clumps, so I don't stir and let it rest again.
At that point I remove the beaker from the water bath to begin attemporation. It has probably dropped to around 90°F. Covering the bucket can also help hold temperature.
I go very slowly, adding small amounts of must at first -- 10-30 mL at a time depending on the temperature difference, and later 40-60mL at a time. I avoid dropping it more than 10°F in 5 minutes.

I don't have a scope to measure viability from my method, but I can see slight CO2 production begin within 3-5 minutes after I add initially sugar and the yeast is very active in the beaker about 15-30 minutes after attemporation completes if I leave it sit. Be careful it doesn't climb out of the beaker.
My lag time for a 6 gal batch is under 12h at 60°F. When I'm fermenting lower like for cider, I pitch at around 60°F and then I'll drop it when I see activity.

I should take some photos next time.

No worries about your batch; it's just slow because it's cold.

 

[SEndorf]

Thanks for your detail and assistance!
You use more water than my previous instructions. Next time I will use your ratio with a hot water bath. Makes sense that it will better stabilize the temp.

 

[teddyearp]

My, my, my, how clinical you guys are. I mean no offense but it makes me wonder how my method even works if you use all that fancy equipment and serious measurements and time.

My last batch, I took the room temp juice, added the sugar I wanted to and shook the heck out of it. Took the 4-6 oz of juice that I poured off before mixing, put it in a glass that size (<----), 'nuked' it for about 20 seconds, added a tsp of DAP, and then tossed a couple of grams of EC-1118 on it. Twenty minutes later it was all foamy on top, gave it a good swirl and poured it into my must. 24 hrs later, my bubbler was going crazy.

Of course, the biggest variation for me is that I'm fermenting at about 65-67 F.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You use more water than my previous instructions.

The ratio is straight from Scott Labs, so any other instructions are wrong.
https://scottlab.com/goferm-goferm

 

[SEndorf]

This EC-1118 champagne yeast is a mystery.
What little developed krausen has dissipated.
It's gassing off a bit.
Thinking of hydrating another packet.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There shouldn't be much/any kräusen. Leave it alone or check gravity if you're worried about it.

 

[SEndorf]

LOL....
I'm like a noob worried about my bubbles....
I'm used to beer foaming shmutz into the blowoff.
I'll leave it alone then....

Thanks

 

[bkboiler]

Wow, this is great information. I've made cider a few times and had great results maybe just barely over most of the time. I'm excited to try out some of these techniques on my next batch.

 

[SEndorf]

I'm finding this cider fascinating, as it does not emulate beer fermentation at all.
I initially had a slight krausening that dissipated. I did step it up from 50 to 52F. Now at day 7 I have a half inch of clean white foam and the airlock shows continuous activity.
My only guess is the yeast needed quite some time to replicate into some biomass sugar munchers.
Based on the recent activity, it seemed pointless to take a gravity reading yet.
We'll see when things calm down.... again !

 

[doublejef]

I'm a semi to sweet cider fan and use a cold crashing and refrigeration protocol to consistently achieve this without pasteurization or chemicals.

I would love to hear more about your technique. Maybe you already explain it somewhere but I haven't seen it yet.