Midnight Wheat Malt for Black IPA Opinions

[ArkotRamathorn]

I have 23oz of frozen wet Cascade hops, and 16oz of dried whole leaf cascade hops burning a hole in my uh, freezer? Since the new growing season is coming along and homebrew club president and a friend of the club always have butt loads of cascade laying around, I figured I should do a black IPA and get these out of the way, and at the same time try something I've wanted to try for awhile, an IPA with all hop additions being at less than 5 minutes and still hitting IPA levels of IBUs.

Main question was the use of midnight wheat malt in a black IPA. It sounds like I may not get as much coffee/roastiness from and its a bit more smooth than other roasted grains, partially this is why I chose it as the main roasted malt for my black IPA. I was thinking in the range of 5% for the midnight wheat malt and then throwing in a little (2%) of regular American roasted barley for that roasty coffee bite without getting that burnt ash flavor.

I know Carafa is pretty popular in black IPAs but haven't seen a ton using the midnight wheat malt, so opinions, ideas in general about black IPAs anything is welcome.

 

[Gunnerer]

Do you like Snow Day? Some say the clone is better and it uses 10% midnight

 

[BuzzKillington]

My neighbor and I brewed a black imperial IPA last summer that used 3.3% midnight wheat and 2.4% carafa III. If I remember right, the taste was very smooth, not too roasty. The beer we made got reserve BOS at the local fair.

 

[masonacoats]

It sounds like a good idea. No barley husk so there's gonna be much less astringency. If you're going for black IPA though, why not skip the roasted barley?

 

[BUCKNUTS]

I've used Midnight wheat, Carafa 3 and Belgian debittered Black in Black IPAs and I definitely prefer Carafa 3 as it imparts the least roasted quality. I am thinking next Black IPA I am going to cold steep the Carafa 3 to get even less of that character. I would never use roasted Barley in a Black IPA personally unless you want a hoppy porter which might not be all bad.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I guess in my head I had the impression black IPAs needed a roasty quality, as opposed to a smooth coffee/chocolate character. Chalk it up to trying examples from Brewers who got over zealous with the roasted barley.

I'll have midnight wheat malt, chocolate, and pale chocolate on hand LHBS doesn't have carafa listed on their website. I'll probably just go the 10% route with the midnight wheat then.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Oh yeah, another aspect I forgot about. The dry hops. I have cascade pellets on hand but have heard a lot of stories about cascade being a very grassy dry hop, would like to keep the beer a single hop beer but I don't want to ruin it just to say it's single hop. I have 18oz of citra pellets sitting around, or would that be too delicate? (I wouldn't use all 18, I have 2 1oz packages ready to rock and the rest vacuum sealed in he freezer)

 

[BUCKNUTS]

Oh yeah, another aspect I forgot about. The dry hops. I have cascade pellets on hand but have heard a lot of stories about cascade being a very grassy dry hop, would like to keep the beer a single hop beer but I don't want to ruin it just to say it's single hop. I have 18oz of citra pellets sitting around, or would that be too delicate? (I wouldn't use all 18, I have 2 1oz packages ready to rock and the rest vacuum sealed in he freezer)

Citra is not to delicate to use to dry hop a black ipa imo. I have hop bursted a couple ipas with Amarillo/citra combo which is a winning combo but I havent hop bursted a black ipa before.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Citra is not to delicate to use to dry hop a black ipa imo. I have hop bursted a couple ipas with Amarillo/citra combo which is a winning combo but I havent hop bursted a black ipa before.

I'll probably drop in 2 oz of citra then, and maybe drop another .5oz of chinook for a 5 day dry hop and give it a nice big citrus punch with a pinch of piney spice.

How does everyone feel about using sugar in a black IPA. In past IPAs I've used sugar to dry it out and crisp up the hop character but the dark chocolate and coffee makes me think I maybe don't want it too dry or it'll come off super roasty. Since I'm hitting 40 SRM with my recipe already, more color from a dark belgian candi sugar won't mess anything up so I was gonna cook up a 1lb batch of candi syrup in the range of 120-160 lovibond and toss it in the boil.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

Since I'm hitting 40 SRM with my recipe already, more color from a dark belgian candi sugar won't mess anything up so I was gonna cook up a 1lb batch of candi syrup in the range of 120-160 lovibond and toss it in the boil.

Do it and use a Belgian yeast as well. I've never made a Belgian Black IPA actually I don't know that I've ever seen one so you just gave me the idea for my next ipa.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Do it and use a Belgian yeast as well. I've never made a Belgian Black IPA actually I don't know that I've ever seen one so you just gave me the idea for my next ipa.

HA! I was actually already planning to build up a big starter of 1762 Belgian Abbey Ale II for this batch and ferment in the mid-60s, get some ester production, but not a ton that would dominate the hops. I have a packet of T-58 as well which is a possibility, I've used it before and got more peppery phenols than the esters, could be tasty with the tiny bit of chinook, if I rehydrate it really gently I should hit my pitch rate decent (1.073 at 4gallons, I should be fairly close).

 

[BUCKNUTS]

HA! I was actually already planning to build up a big starter of 1762 Belgian Abbey Ale II for this batch and ferment in the mid-60s, get some ester production, but not a ton that would dominate the hops. I have a packet of T-58 as well which is a possibility, I've used it before and got more peppery phenols than the esters, could be tasty with the tiny bit of chinook, if I rehydrate it really gently I should hit my pitch rate decent (1.073 at 4gallons, I should be fairly close).

I'm not sure why Belgian Black IPA never crossed my mind before but in a few months after I brew my next 4 batches that I already have put together I'm going to give it a go dark candi sugar and all it sounds great to me.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I'm not sure why Belgian Black IPA never crossed my mind before but in a few months after I brew my next 4 batches that I already have put together I'm going to give it a go dark candi sugar and all it sounds great to me.

I'll be the test dummy, I am planning to brew this weekend... Though stuff may get in the way, I don't want to rush the pseudo honey-bock I have going so it may end up waiting till the weekend after next. Figure the candi sugar will give some sweet caramel/dark fruit tons and I don't need to take up space in my BIAB set up with additional grain (11lbs is the max I can safely do), then I can just add a little more base malt and focus on hte midnight wheat and chocolate malts. I'll decide the yeast when it gets close to being make a starter time.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

I'll be the test dummy, I am planning to brew this weekend... Though stuff may get in the way, I don't want to rush the pseudo honey-bock I have going so it may end up waiting till the weekend after next. Figure the candi sugar will give some sweet caramel/dark fruit tons and I don't need to take up space in my BIAB set up with additional grain (11lbs is the max I can safely do), then I can just add a little more base malt and focus on hte midnight wheat and chocolate malts. I'll decide the yeast when it gets close to being make a starter time.

Update the thread when you do it I'm interested in the results and will definitely be doing one in the near future.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

So brewed this today, right in the middle of the whirlpool. Had to make some on the fly adjustments, the 13oz of dried cascade smelled ever so slightly like gym socks so I didn't want to risk the batch. I had some wakatu pellets on hand so I did 3oz of wakatu at 3 minutes to try and compensate.

Also added 2oz of cascade and 2oz of wakatu to the whirlpool and started it hot to make up for the loss in IBUs from the dried cascade I am now composting. Smells friggin tropical right now so I can't wait for this to finish. Also tossed in 4oz of special B, because, I damn well can, that's why.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

So brewed this today, right in the middle of the whirlpool. Had to make some on the fly adjustments, the 13oz of dried cascade smelled ever so slightly like gym socks so I didn't want to risk the batch. I had some wakatu pellets on hand so I did 3oz of wakatu at 3 minutes to try and compensate.

Also added 2oz of cascade and 2oz of wakatu to the whirlpool and started it hot to make up for the loss in IBUs from the dried cascade I am now composting. Smells friggin tropical right now so I can't wait for this to finish. Also tossed in 4oz of special B, because, I damn well can, that's why.

That sounds like a nice hop combo might be better than the cascade alone. Good call on not using the dried cascade if they were smelling at all cheesey using that amount you were most likely going to get some of that in your finished ipa.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

That sounds like a nice hop combo might be better than the cascade alone. Good call on not using the dried cascade if they were smelling at all cheesey using that amount you were most likely going to get some of that in your finished ipa.

They'll make good starters for my compost, it's too bad but now I'll have something a bit more complex. Big time tropical citrus aromas that made SWMBO say, "No more IPAs for awhile" from upstairs.

 

[bigdinosaur1337]

So I decided to dabble with some Midnight Wheat in my recent Black IPA recipe recently and am completely satisfied with the results. Living in Michigan, I have the luxury of traveling to Founders quite often and I recently fell in love with their All Night IPA - a Session Black IPA utilizing Midnight Wheat and Mosaic Hops. I sought out to clone it and keep the beer on tap at home (I live 2 hours away) - and am quite happy with the recipe I've come up with. I'm not sure if you've brewed already but here is what I did:

5.5 Gal Batch Size

6.75lb US 2-Row
1lb Flaked Oats
8oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine
1lb Crystal 40
10oz Midnight Wheat
.25oz FWH Mosaic
.5oz Mosaic @ 20min
.5oz Mosaic @ 10min
1oz Mosaic @ 5min
2.75oz Mosaic @ 0min (30 min Whirlpool @ 180F)
2oz Mosaic @ Dry Hop 5 Days
US-05 Yeast

Stats:
4.8% ABV
43.6IBU
41.2 SRM

Recipe followed the All Day IPA clone on the forum here but substituted grains and hops. Picture below!

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

So I decided to dabble with some Midnight Wheat in my recent Black IPA recipe recently and am completely satisfied with the results. Living in Michigan, I have the luxury of traveling to Founders quite often and I recently fell in love with their All Night IPA - a Session Black IPA utilizing Midnight Wheat and Mosaic Hops. I sought out to clone it and keep the beer on tap at home (I live 2 hours away) - and am quite happy with the recipe I've come up with. I'm not sure if you've brewed already but here is what I did:

5.5 Gal Batch Size

6.75lb US 2-Row
1lb Flaked Oats
8oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine
1lb Crystal 40
10oz Midnight Wheat
.25oz FWH Mosaic
.5oz Mosaic @ 20min
.5oz Mosaic @ 10min
1oz Mosaic @ 5min
2.75oz Mosaic @ 0min (30 min Whirlpool @ 180F)
2oz Mosaic @ Dry Hop 5 Days
US-05 Yeast

Stats:
4.8% ABV
43.6IBU
41.2 SRM

Recipe followed the All Day IPA clone on the forum here but substituted grains and hops. Picture below!

If Founder's uses Midnight Wheat then its good enough for me. I wish the Old Dirty Bastard came in cans so I could bring that camping. I have another 1.25lbs of Midnight Wheat I picked up for future use, love the smell that was coming off the mash and boil but the hydrometer sample was 90% hop material (30oz of hops in the last 5 minutes will do that) so all I could taste was hops so I don't know what the midnight wheat contributes compared to other highly roasted grains.

Plan on using Midnight Wheat in future batches like stouts/porters/dunkelweizen color adjustment.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

So, a long wordy post can be summed up in a few words.

Midnight Wheat = Awesome

Thiefed out a 16oz sample after 2 1/2-ish weeks (after 6 days of dry hopping with 2oz of Citra). Smooth, chocolate, some very slight roast, big hop aromas but not to the point where you can't detect the malt aroma. I'm using my grain bill for future oatmeal stouts and such, and just adjusting volumes/hopping and adding flaked oats.

Theres probably 2 main criticisms I can level against this. It *is* slightly on the sweet side for an IPA, but I think thats more a function of attenuation than recipe/process. I added half a pound of sugar when I took a sample after a week and a half (measured around 1.022 which was WAY high for what I was expecting), after the ferment died down again I was around 1.015 which was still a tad high but once I get it conditioned it won't seem quite so sweet.

The other is, the all hops under 5 minutes. It works, it definitely *does not* taste like a 75ish IBU beer, the bitterness is VERY smooth, the midnight wheat could be covering a lot of it, but I definitely think if I submitted this to competition I would get knocked for the lack of "Bitter-Bitterness". If I make it again in the future I may do a 20IBU addition at 60 minutes to give that sort of stiff back bone of bittering, and another 60IBU added in the sub-5 minute marks.

(speculation, it could be because the majority of the hops added at 3minutes, 21oz of whole cone cascade were frozen wet hops, I waited till the boil came rolling back before I restarted my timer, so if I used fresher dry cones, or equivalent pellets, I'd bet I'd get that stiffer bittering you normally expect in an IPA of any type, in the end I really really love this and am gonna bottle most of it in 22oz bombers so I don't have to share with anyone)

 

[BUCKNUTS]

I didnt do an ipa but I just racked a dark winter saison that I used 8oz of midnight wheat in on to spiced rum soaked raisins and I tasted no roast character from the midnight wheat at all. I have a black ipa recipe based on Stone's SSR that I use carsfa 3 in and I can always detect a bit of roastiness from it. This spring I'm going to make it with midnight wheat sub for the carafa 3.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I didnt do an ipa but I just racked a dark winter saison that I used 8oz of midnight wheat in on to spiced rum soaked raisins and I tasted no roast character from the midnight wheat at all. I have a black ipa recipe based on Stone's SSR that I use carsfa 3 in and I can always detect a bit of roastiness from it. This spring I'm going to make it with midnight wheat sub for the carafa 3.

Yeah, even at 12-16oz it doesnt contribute a lot of roasty character, it mostly just comes off as coffee and dark chocolate. I love how much body it gives a beer though, I just cracked my last bottle of black IPA and it had a head that could probably support a quarter. I might re-brew this with a buttload of citra and centennial instead of the cascade and use a saison yeast to really dry it out (I did not enter this black IPA into any comps because its more like a really hoppy foreign extra stout or a low gravity RIS).

 

[oujens]

Do you like Snow Day? Some say the clone is better and it uses 10% midnight

I loved Snow Day. Hate that this isn't a seasonal offering. Do you have a link to this clone? Thanks.

 

[m00ps]

Admittedly, I am making no effort to read the previous posts but...

Midnight wheat is the best debittered black malt for black IPAs, saisons, etc. IMO. It is the darkest malt I know of, but also carries the least amount of roast

I try to make my black IPAs to be as differentiated from a "hoppy stout" as possible. To me, this means getting it dry as possible and as littel roast as possible. Ive started leaving my midnight wheat out of my mash and only adding it for the mashout. It works great

 

[CA_Mouse]

I have switched from using Carafa 2/3 and using Midnight Wheat in almost every one of my black beers. I do use a little Black Prinz/Black Barley to give a little roast flavor, but I'm only using 2 ounces or so, and only in the sparge. The wheat adds more head retention, so I cut out Carapils and there is less acrid taste than I got from Carafa and Black Barley.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Yeah, even at 12-16oz it doesnt contribute a lot of roasty character, it mostly just comes off as coffee and dark chocolate. I love how much body it gives a beer though, I just cracked my last bottle of black IPA and it had a head that could probably support a quarter. I might re-brew this with a buttload of citra and centennial instead of the cascade and use a saison yeast to really dry it out (I did not enter this black IPA into any comps because its more like a really hoppy foreign extra stout or a low gravity RIS).

@ArkotRamathorn Gotta revive this thread! I'm brewing something very similar for my club's Iron Brew. What yeast did you end up using? Belgian? How was it? Did you ever rebrew with a saison strain? Inquiring minds wanna know!

 

[Comfort_Zone]

As one who has used it in BIPAs before I can't recommend it enough. I poured myself a bottle maybe about a month ago during a brew day and the foam didn't dissipate for about 2 hours. I now keep midnight wheat available at all times.