Maybe I am just a dick...

[EdMerican]

But, is it just me or any time someone posts a response to a recipe thread and says "ooooh, this sounds so good. I'm going to brew this except [insert fundamental change here] such as adding a lb or two of random grain, or swapping a completely different kind of hop or dry hopping for that matter, or swapping the yeast for a non-equivalent type... it burns my ass. ESPECIALLY when someone says "I followed the recipe to the letter except I changed [ repeat aforementioned fundamental changes]" it is decidedly not the recipe that was posted. Changing one thing save for /maybe/ the bittering addition with something with similar properties and adjusting quantity for IBUs or swapping yeast for an available similar or equivalent strain changes the recipe. Period. In my mind it would be ok to say "Im going to use this as a base recipe and modify this that or the other." But, seriously, if it sounds that good brew it as is. Modify it later after passing judgement and make it your way. Or be REALLY cavalier and make up your own recipes if you dont want to make a proven recipe someone took the time to post and share.


Sorry... rant over... cheers

 

[ericbw]

Or if you post a recipe and everyone says it's good but you should add... or change... or leave out... It's good, just not like it is.

 

[drainbamage]

Agreed. Unless I just flat-out can't find a specialty hop at the LHBS, I'll always brew the recipe as-is, then see if I'd like to change anything in the future.

 

[Hopinista]

Like SD-Slim's Lemon Lime Hefeweizen thread. There's literally hundreds of people "I brewed this BUT used different hops/yeast/only fermented for 5 minutes" it must be super annoying.

 

[hunter_le five]

The only thing that gets me is when people modify a recipe, end up with a beer they are disappointed in, and then blame the original recipe like somehow it is at fault.

"I brewed this recipe, but I was out of Maris Otter, so I subbed all 10 pounds of it with Crystal 120. Also I doubled the hops, because I like hoppy beers. The recipe called for US-05, but all I had was bread yeast, so I used bread yeast. Like 4 packs of it. Other than that, I followed this recipe to a T. Oh yeah and I don't have a way to control ferm temps yet, so I just let it ferment in my garage. It's like 98*F in there, so fermentation was very vigorous. After 12 hours I bottled. The beer turned out to be undrinkable. Your recipe sucks, I'm never brewing this again. I don't know why it's so popular."

I see this alot on the online HBS websites when people review kits. Hilarious.

 

[BreezyBrew]

After 12 hours I bottled.

Haha hilarious. "I didn't do a final gravity reading, but I got bottle bombs"

 

[CooperBrew]

The only thing that gets me is when people modify a recipe, end up with a beer they are disappointed in, and then blame the original recipe like somehow it is at fault.

What he said.

Classic example I've found on this forum is the JAOM recipe. It's as basic as it gets, follow the instructions, use the bread yeast like your supposed to and it's great. But people always use a different yeast, add things, subtract things and then complain it didn't turn out. Doesn't upset me but I often shake my head when I read them.

 

[Beernik]

If you are this uptight about your own recipes, you shouldn't share them. If they aren't your recipe and it's not your brew, why care?

I don't need to try brewing a beer that makes heavy usage of Simcoe hops to know that I'm not going to like it as is. It's like I don't need to try a plain cookie to know that I'll like a cookie with chocolate chips better.

I've never understood the desire to make a beer that tastes exactly like someone else's beer. That's why I started altering kits on brew #2 and altering recipes on brew #3. I started writing my own recipes by the end of my first year brewing.

That said, this year I may make my first two clone brews in the 9 years I've been brewing. But one is for an old housemate and the other won't be a true clone.

 

[soccerdad]

I really like your post, but instead of 'burns my ass' I'm going to read 'grinds my gears'. And where you end with 'cheers' I'm going to go with 'fok all y'all'. But this looks like a fabulous rant - thanks for sharing.

 

[MaxStout]

Maybe those people like the basic premise of your recipe, but want to tweak a few things to their liking. It doesn't mean they are dissing your treasured recipe, it means they like it for the most part but want to change it a bit for personal tastes (or ingredient availability). It's not like you carried it down from the mountaintop on a stone tablet.

 

[drainbamage]

If you are this uptight about your own recipes, you shouldn't share them. If they aren't your recipe and it's not your brew, why care?

You're missing the point. A lot of the recipes that get shared around here are tried and true, and have likely experienced their fair share of tweaks and revisions by the creator. That's like going to a nice restaurant, ordering some specialty meal, having them leave out a several ingredients and substituting other stuff in its place. If you're going to take that recipe and change a bunch of things without even trying the original, then why are you not formulating your own recipes?

 

[MindenMan]

Why brew someone else's recipe? Well, maybe it won a contest, maybe it is a style I like, and mine have only been just okay. For the clowns that rewrite a recipe, and then complain it sucked, well, it should have. I brew a slightly modified version of Jamil's "Who's Your Taddy Porter", and won Best of Category recently. What change did I make? I don't remember what it was, but it was due to me not finding/having a particular ingredient to brew with that day or week, instead of "Hey let me see if I can make this ale better by changing up the grain bill..." Sorry, end of rant.

 

[jmendez29]

Maybe those people like the basic premise of your recipe, but want to tweak a few things to their liking. It doesn't mean they are dissing your treasured recipe, it means they like it for the most part but want to change it a bit for personal tastes (or ingredient availability). It's not like you carried it down from the mountaintop on a stone tablet.

That's great, but unless they are REALLY good at knowing what it will taste like before they even brew it, then they really don't know how it will turn out. But if they brewed it with their personalized touch and didn't like the way it turned out, then I guess they aren't so good at knowing what the final product will be just by looking at the recipe.

My GF does this all the time with food. She hears about a fantastic recipe and just starts substituting random things. I keep having to explain to her that the first time you make ANYTHING, you need to follow the recipe as written. Then make adjustments according to your taste. Because if you make changes, you don't really know if the recipe sucks, or if the changes you made ruined it.

 

[EdMerican]

If you are this uptight about your own recipes, you shouldn't share them. If they aren't your recipe and it's not your brew, why care?

I don't need to try brewing a beer that makes heavy usage of Simcoe hops to know that I'm not going to like it as is. It's like I don't need to try a plain cookie to know that I'll like a cookie with chocolate chips better.

I've never understood the desire to make a beer that tastes exactly like someone else's beer. That's why I started altering kits on brew #2 and altering recipes on brew #3. I started writing my own recipes by the end of my first year brewing.

That said, this year I may make my first two clone brews in the 9 years I've been brewing. But one is for an old housemate and the other won't be a true clone.

Im not uptight about my recipes at all. Frankly I haven't shared many out of laziness. I have 24 tried and tweaked and proven recipes and I have posted 2 or 3. I started building my own recipes after 3 kits. Some were winners, some needed adjustment, and a couple took a swirl down the drain.

Perhaps you should read the post over again. The title is "maybe im just a dick". That may be the case. I know I generally dislike people and expect more from them than I reasonably should. Be glad you're not one of my kids.

Additionally the whole point of the post was people saying THAT THEY FOLLOWED THE RECIPE TO THE LETTER but changed it completely. THAT is what bothers me. So settle down. Have a beer. And brew what suits you.

 

[grathan]

I don't mind what other people do so much cause it doesn't really affect me. What grinds my gears is when you go to the LHBS and they break out the substitution chart for half of the recipe. I have enough troubles with consistency even if I use exact ingredients, I wouldn't even bother calling the beer the same name.

 

[EdMerican]

Why brew someone else's recipe? I brew a slightly modified version of Jamil's "Who's Your Taddy Porter", and won Best of Category recently.

You may have used it as inspiration, but why call it Jamils porter? Even modified? You changed it. Its YOUR beer now. How many IPAs are out there? How many have the same grain bill? I bet several. Is any brewery calling their beer "so and so's IPA that we changed a couple things"? No. Its a different recipe. Its their beer. Your modified version is your version of a porter. Take a little credit. Congrats on the award, by the way.

 

[icebob]

I completely agree with OP. i always try a recipe as posted before trying to tweak it. Isee it like asking Gordon Ramsay if his beef Willington recipe will work ifnyou subbed the Filet with ground turkey cause that is what you have! For me try before tweak after...

 

[Zepth]

Why brew someone else's recipe?

Because it's much easier to do anything with a recipe than try to formulate your own. That's a large percentage of why I check out the recipe section every now and then.

Me? I'm guilty of changing things around a tiny bit. First, I don't have resources to buy 3 different crystal bulk bags, and can't stand to pay the "by the lb" price. So in Zepth Brewing, Caramunich III (60*L) = crystal 40-80. Close enough for me. If I really need to I won't be opposed to get a small amount for a particular batch, but I haven't had any disappointment yet.

Yeast. I was making a recipe, and doing a great job of following it to the letter. Every ingredient matched perfectly, mash temps, boil times, hop additions. All is going well. Until I screwed up my yeast for that batch with parti-gyle batch. Oops. Fortunately, I am extremely satisfied with the result and all who have tried have loved it. Ended up using S-33 instead of Nottingham, and .002 higher FG than recipe called for. I intend to do it good and proper later on, but I also plan to do this substitution as well.

I usually try to follow a recipe as closely as possible, see no good reason to modify things right out of the starting gates. Perhaps, maybe, in the future I could see myself trying a lager recipe with a very clean ale yeast based strictly on my current inabilities to control the exact temp in my ferm room, and have no space for a dedicated chamber. After an attempt, then it's a reasonable time to modify and fine tune things.

In the end of it all, I wouldn't say you're a dick. You are opinionated, and I fully understand where you're coming from. Particularly agree with the part of "I changed X, didn't like it, you suck" ideas. Those people are failing life.

 

[invictusbrew]

While I often change posted recipes before trying the original (I'm a tinkerer, I can't help it), I wouldn't ever comment on one with a bad OR good review as I haven't tried the recipe posted. I agree with the OP in that regard and it drives me nuts too, because while I will probably change something (again - good, bad or indifferent - it's just the way I am) I still want to know how most people like/dislike the recipe I will be basing one of mine on. Now, if it was a "hey, I tried your recipe and then made it again with a couple changes and it turned out amazing" type post, then I'm all for it as I'm sure many recipe posters are as well. Nothing wrong with a bit of constructive criticism if it's actually on your beer and not someone else's "version of".

Conclusion: IMO no, you're not a dick. It's an understandable position to have. It's not really helpful to the recipe at hand unless there's a comparison of contrast.


EDIT: also, the "reindeer spit brown" in my signature is just a knock off of a knock off. However, it is based off of one of the first kits I ever brewed that I only changed after I had made it a couple times exactly as intended and tasted a friends version who had a different brewing set up and liked his more(tasted maltier/sweeter) He had a larger kettle with more surface area, therefore (in my guesstimation) I figured if I upped the grain a little bit and boiled longer I could achieve a similar flavor. I have since made a couple other minor additions, but that's the gist of it. So here I had what was basically the same kit recipe (based on the name I can almost guarantee most of you know exactly which one it was), but with a couple minor changes, I had made it my own, but not so much as to warrant an entirely different name. So I changed the name to mimic the old and have done that on a couple others that are almost perfect replicas of the kits I based them off. While beers that I have either changed in ways that you wouldn't taste much like the originals at all, I hadn't tasted the original to know the difference, or that I came up with on my own are named for whatever suits me at the time. Just as a semi-Off topic example.

 

[Yooper]

I like that people can use my posted recipes for a jumping off point for their own- that's cool. What is irritating as when they do what others posted, "I changed X for Y, and subbed all the hops, and changed the yeast. This beer is just ok for me, and I wouldn't recommend brewing it". Um, well, you didn't brew this beer!

That wasn't as bad as one other that irritated the heck out of me, though! One guy wanted me (all via PM) to make the AG beer into an extract/partial mash batch, and use some of the ingredients he had to make a recipe for him out of my original. I did that. It took me a couple of hours of back and forth and formatting but it looked really good when I sent it to him complete.

About 3 months later, he posted into the recipe database, "MY version of XXXX beer". It was exactly the recipe I worked on, tweaked for him, and changed for him. It's really not a huge deal, but it irritated me to no end. Especially when others posted things like, "GREAT recipe! It's so much better than similar recipe on the forum- you are awesome!". Yeah. He's awesome.

 

[invictusbrew]

Plagiarism for the win! Or is it beergiarism? I dunno.

That is pretty cruddy though, Yooper. Just FYI, I've definitely based at least one of my recipes off of one of yours, can't remember which one anymore since there's been so many, but I remember it turned out pretty dang good so I actually went backwards and brewed the recipe exactly as you posted it to compare. Almost hate to admit it, but yours was better :cross:

 

[drainbamage]

That wasn't as bad as one other that irritated the heck out of me, though! One guy wanted me (all via PM) to make the AG beer into an extract/partial mash batch, and use some of the ingredients he had to make a recipe for him out of my original. I did that. It took me a couple of hours of back and forth and formatting but it looked really good when I sent it to him complete.

About 3 months later, he posted into the recipe database, "MY version of XXXX beer". It was exactly the recipe I worked on, tweaked for him, and changed for him. It's really not a huge deal, but it irritated me to no end. Especially when others posted things like, "GREAT recipe! It's so much better than similar recipe on the forum- you are awesome!". Yeah. He's awesome.

I think we can all agree that was a turd move on his part.

 

[BigJack]

So I'm of a mixed mind with the OP.

I have no issue with people who post "looks great... but I'm gonna change..."

Hey, we're homebrewers. We like to tinker.

Now, when someone badmouths the recipe after making substitutions and changes, that's some bullcrap right there.

 

[Beernik]

You're missing the point. A lot of the recipes that get shared around here are tried and true, and have likely experienced their fair share of tweaks and revisions by the creator. That's like going to a nice restaurant, ordering some specialty meal, having them leave out a several ingredients and substituting other stuff in its place. If you're going to take that recipe and change a bunch of things without even trying the original, then why are you not formulating your own recipes?

I disagree. It's not like going to a restaurant and asking a chef to alter a dish. It's like reading a cookbook and cooking a recipe in it to your own taste.

If I take the bagel recipe in The Bread Bible and add raisins, sunflower seeds, or poppy seeds, then I'm a bad guy for having never made them plain? Am I a bad guy because I've never used the egg wash?

Give me a break. You all remind me of my mother who freaked when I told her I used whole wheat and olive oil in my grandfather's waffle recipe instead of white wheat and shortening. I said, "Ma, you are freaking out over waffles you aren't eating."

And I do write my own beer recipes. I start with the flavor I want and work back to grains and hops. Then I look at styles and see what I'm near. Then I pick a yeast and begin refining the recipe. Sometimes I knock out a recipe in a weekend. Some linger in limbo for years before I think I have it right.

 

[CastleHollow]

I read OP as being more about thread etiquette, than really about his dislike of changing a recipe.

There are some great recipes on this forum, some with thousands of views and replies. Many of those replies attempt to alter the original recipe--that's where things can go off course from what the originator intended.

 

[balrog]

As a noob I'm still trying to find I like, and I haven't brewed nearly enough to know what combinations my personal taste prefers. I'll always follow recipe at this stage of the game, realizing that my system/process isn't really totally repeatable yet for the same recipe.

I will say that HBT does not suffer this hilarious situation alone--check *ANY* forum on *ANY* food site and read the "reviews" there for exactly the same trend. "I doubled the spice amount but substituted dried Yak spit for Saffron and I HATED this recipe".

 

[kombat]

I see it like asking Gordon Ramsay if his beef Willington recipe will work ifnyou subbed the Filet with ground turkey cause that is what you have! For me try before tweak after...

So you consider yourself the Gordon Ramsay of brewing?

What if you invited Gordon Ramsay over for dinner and you made him your mother's secret Shepherd's Pie recipe, and Gordon sprinkled some fresh Rosemary on his portion before even tasting it? Would you be offended, or would you think, "that sounds good, I wish I'd thought of that"?

 

[drainbamage]

So you consider yourself the Gordon Ramsay of brewing?

No, but if I'm borrowing a recipe from Biermuncher, or Yooper, or EdWort (etc.), I kind of assume they know what they're doing, so I can leave the recipe as is. When I recently brewed Centennial Blonde for the first time, I didn't try to add or substitute a bunch of ingredients, nor did I even bother to read the pages and pages of variants.

If I read a recipe that includes ingredients I don't like, I just find a different recipe.

 

[aggiejason]

I really like your post, but instead of 'burns my ass' I'm going to read 'grinds my gears'. And where you end with 'cheers' I'm going to go with 'fok all y'all'. But this looks like a fabulous rant - thanks for sharing.

Props soccerdad. That was hilarious.

 

[Homercidal]

Some things change a recipe drastically, and some things, not so much. Some people aren't good at making their own recipes, and need a base recipe to work from.

In any case, most people brewing the same recipe are not going to end up with the same results. There are plenty of variables in the process of brewing that can change certain aspects of the beer. If I brewed Yooper's Pale Ale, it would probably be a bit different, since she has a different system, maybe uses different temp control, etc.

My last brew was Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde. I didn't have Centennial! (Weird for me...) so I subbed Amarillo. And then I subbed Citra for the Cascade because I have some Citra that I wanted to try. But I am not expecting, and I'm not claiming, that my version will be just like Biermuncher's. I wanted a lite, easy-drinking ale for working outside. THAT part of the recipe I kept! Well, I scaled up for 6 gallons too, but...

 

[hunter_le five]

- 99% Perspiration 1% Beer
- Always brew your best.
- "Be sure to protect the beer from marauding squirrels"

I only had enough sweat for around ~40%, so I subbed the rest with the tears of my neighbor's children. I didn't have any beer handy, so I recycled some from last night (yeah yeah I know, pissing in the primary, rookie mistake).

The end result was salty as hell, and the sirens are getting louder.
I was so preoccupied with the squirrels that I completely forgot about cops.

Never making this recipe again, I think I'll stick with pruno. Once again Breezy has led me astray with his shoddy recipes.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

I'll admit it does irritate me when I see someone blame a perfectly good recipe that they altered enough to ruin & I've been irritated by those who brew somebody else's recipe & either claim it as their own, or they change 1 minor thing & claim it's original. That being said, I also expect people to tinker with recipes. Sometimes they find something that turns out to be really good; sometimes not so much.

Whenever I tinker with a recipe, I make sure to brew the original 1st, that way I have a baseline to work from. I also make certain to give the recipe originator credit when & where it's due. Sometimes a recipe simply becomes so popular that the originator gets left behind. Ed Wort's apfelwein for example. It's been a long time since I've seen anybody refer to it as "Ed Wort's," now it's just "apfelwein," kind of how all facial tissue gets referred to as the brand name "Kleenex."

Brandon O's graff is a recipe I've experimented with quite a bit, sometimes so much that the only thing the same is the fact that it contains apple juice. Those recipes are mine, but they are all based on Brandon O's.

I think sometimes people just get excited about brewing something & they want to try all these different things, or they ask questions that we've all heard over & over: "Can I make a sweet, sparkling cider?" or "has anyone ever tried cinnamon in their brew?" They're likely new to brewing & as excited about it as a puppy is when you come home from work. About all we can do is point them in the right direction, make sure they know there is a search function, and recommend they brew the base recipe as is before they tinker with it. Some will listen, some will just do it their own way anyway.

That's my 2 cents worth. Regards, GF.

 

[jmendez29]

I disagree. It's not like going to a restaurant and asking a chef to alter a dish. It's like reading a cookbook and cooking a recipe in it to your own taste.

If I take the bagel recipe in The Bread Bible and add raisins, sunflower seeds, or poppy seeds, then I'm a bad guy for having never made them plain? Am I a bad guy because I've never used the egg wash?

Give me a break. You all remind me of my mother who freaked when I told her I used whole wheat and olive oil in my grandfather's waffle recipe instead of white wheat and shortening. I said, "Ma, you are freaking out over waffles you aren't eating."

And I do write my own beer recipes. I start with the flavor I want and work back to grains and hops. Then I look at styles and see what I'm near. Then I pick a yeast and begin refining the recipe. Sometimes I knock out a recipe in a weekend. Some linger in limbo for years before I think I have it right.

I still think you're focusing on the wrong point. Changing the recipe isn't bad, but blaming the original recipe when it turns out bad, after all the adjustments, is what is really at issue.

 

[MindenMan]

I earlier stated my Brown Porter was based on a Brown Porter of Jamil's. I do believe I was missing the point... Once again Yooper, you are spot on. It is MY recipe now. I LOVE Samuel Smith's Taddy Porter, and thought if anybody could nail a clone, it would be Jamil. ( No disrespect to anyone) I believe my recipe was modified due to lack of the proper ingredients, so I did my best to stay within the style guide with what I had on hand. In my restaurants, if somebody had to think on their feet, and the copy was better than the original version, it was known as a "Happy Accident" because, "...When the moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars, then peace will guide the planets, and love will steer the stars..."

I guess I just dated myself. W/O looking, who can name the title of this song?

 

[MaxStout]

I earlier stated my Brown Porter was based on a Brown Porter of Jamil's. I do believe I was missing the point... Once again Yooper, you are spot on. It is MY recipe now. I LOVE Samuel Smith's Taddy Porter, and thought if anybody could nail a clone, it would be Jamil. ( No disrespect to anyone) I believe my recipe was modified due to lack of the proper ingredients, so I did my best to stay within the style guide with what I had on hand. In my restaurants, if somebody had to think on their feet, and the copy was better than the original version, it was known as a "Happy Accident" because, "...When the moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars, then peace will guide the planets, and love will steer the stars..."

I guess I just dated myself. W/O looking, who can name the title of this song?

Aquarius - The 5th Dimension.

What did I win?

Seriously, I do the same. I try to stick with the proven recipe, but invariably, my LHBS will not have 1 or 2 of the ingredients, so I'll have to sub something close.