Maybe beer brewing is not for me!

[vincentAlpha]

If you are using the pump for other things between batches (wine, cider, whatever) I'd consider using something else to transfer the finished beer on a small batch and see if there is something from the pump, even if it is used only for beer subsequently it wouldn't hurt to try anyway. I tend to be somewhat distrustful of anything closed/un-serviceable no matter how much cleaner or sanitizer you run through it so that's my first suspicion. Also +1 to the balloon/ziplock idea, brilliant way to check for bad seals.

 

[aprichman]

I use the bottle filling attachment which does run the beer down the side of the bottle...but it is all done under vacuum so it isn't introducing any oxygen in the process.

I am rinsing the bottles well with hot water, so I don't think that is the problem...but I suppose I can be more diligent there. I would just think that if that was the root of the problem, I would have some bottles carbonating and some not, not a consistent problem across the whole batch. Plus I use the same procedure all the time and some batches turn out and others don't.

The first experiment I had to do for my 300-level analytical chemistry course was filling a 50mL burette with 15mL of KMnO4 which is bright purple in color. We then drained the burette and had to rinse the burette completely using 2mL of deionized water at a time and record how much total water was needed to completely rinse out the KMnO4.

Ultimately it took 10mL of DI water to completely rinse out the burette. That's 5 rinses taking great care that every part of the glass made contact with the water.

The point of the experiment was to show that 5 washes is pretty much required to get glass completely clean. Even then 5 washes wasn't always enough, sometimes to get the glassware clean we would have to soak the glassware in an acidic solution, rinse with a mild detergent, and THEN do 5 rinses.

Cheers

 

[IslandLizard]

I use the bottle filling attachment which does run the beer down the side of the bottle...but it is all done under vacuum so it isn't introducing any oxygen in the process.

I am rinsing the bottles well with hot water, so I don't think that is the problem...but I suppose I can be more diligent there. I would just think that if that was the root of the problem, I would have some bottles carbonating and some not, not a consistent problem across the whole batch. Plus I use the same procedure all the time and some batches turn out and others don't.

Running down the side is not the same as from the bottom up.
You're not filling in a vacuum. It's under lowered pressure. There is still, plenty of air (and oxygen) left in that bottle.

Now splashed beer does not deter carbonation or create a sour taste, but more of a wet cardboard flavor that gets worse with time.

As vincentAlpha said, try a small batch in a more conventional way, bottling bucket (or siphon) and eliminate the pump system.

The lack of carbonation makes the capping process suspect, as many have commented on already. You're not capping twist-off bottles are you?

The sour taste must be from something else. Have you had others taste your beer? What do they say? A seasoned home brewer, BJCP judge, or those in a serious homebrew club could detect and pinpoint the source of off flavors. Do you know anyone like that who could assist?

 

[IslandLizard]

The first experiment I had to do for my 300-level analytical chemistry course was filling a 50mL burette with 15mL of KMnO4 which is bright purple in color. We then drained the burette and had to rinse the burette completely using 2mL of deionized water at a time and record how much total water was needed to completely rinse out the KMnO4.

Ultimately it took 10mL of DI water to completely rinse out the burette. That's 5 rinses taking great care that every part of the glass made contact with the water.

The point of the experiment was to show that 5 washes is pretty much required to get glass completely clean. Even then 5 washes wasn't always enough, sometimes to get the glassware clean we would have to soak the glassware in an acidic solution, rinse with a mild detergent, and THEN do 5 rinses.

Cheers

Yeah, those are great experiments you'll never forget. :rockin:

For pragmatism, running a brush inside that burette (or bottle, siphon, racking cane, hose, etc.) gets the gunk out even better and faster. Followed by multiple rinses, of course, as in the experiment.

I still use the same racking hoses after 6 years of brewing. They get cleaned regularly with a long skinny draw brush.

 

[unionrdr]

That's what I do with mine. 66" long 3/8" brush to clean inside the tubing with PBW solution. Rinse well, sanitize with Starsan & hang over one side of my drier shelf to dry before storage.

 

[beerkench]

Lot of blah blah being said on here. Every time someone has a beer problem there's always someone else who chirps in with the 'maybe it's your water?'. Poor water gets the blame for everything in brewing.

I brewed a few batches that were infected with some wild yeast and had a sour taste even though I thought I was being super anal with sanitization. Yes the taste does get worse after bottling as adding priming sugar to an infected batch is giving any wild yeast a chance to reproduce again and infect some more. As for the flat beer the
same happened to some of my bottles which was due to the infection over carbonating the beer and pushing and breaking the cap seal.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[brick_haus]

To your post subject title:
It's quite apparent that beer brewing IS for you. You will get this problem worked out and be a very successful brewer.
Logical, attention to detail and you seem determined to figure things out... Welcome to the affliction.

 

[ncboiler]

It shouldn't oxygenate the beer...well, as long as the cap is tight and it is sealed well, no oxygen should be able to get in.

Oxygen (air) is in the head space after the bottle is capped.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

Maybe a dumb question but doesn't the all in one have a filter on it? Could it be filtering all of the suspended yeast out of solution meaning that the priming sugar wouldn't have anything to eat to carbonate your beers?

 

[Brewski221]

I don't think this question has been asked yet.. Where are you getting your kits? What " brand " are they? And is there any pattern ? like the batches that come out bad are all from the same place? I just read all 9 pages of this and it just is such an odd issue to have. Especially over an entire batch and then the next batch is good. Also I use nothing but spring water in my beer just to be safe. The tap water could be just fine but god only knows what they add to it so it's drinkable day to day. Good luck

 

[philipCT]

Just read all 9 pages of this thread. Any update BrewGal?

A few things I thought of:

1 - Chloramine/Campden: you said you are using some tap water for brewing. if this is city/town water, do you know if it's chloramine treated? I know mine is. Chloramine is THE primary suspect for green apple/tartness. Easily treated with a tab of Campden before use.

2 - Boiled top-off water: you didn't actually say if your chilled top-off water was boiled before use to sanitize it. (and if it's chloramine treated tap water, you still need to treat it with campden before use - the boiling doesn't really do the trick). I would also boil the spring water before using that as top-off water.

3 - Boiled/treated bottling primer - again, if you're using tap water with chloramine, is must be treated. I assume the brewing instructions you're using include the essential step of boiling the sugar in a cup or so of water to prepare the bottling primer.

4 - Yeast - I didn't see where you spoke about what yeast you're using and how you're preparing it. Could you share more about this?

 

[unionrdr]

No need to boil spring water. It's filtered, ozoned, etc already. Boil the 2C or so of water a couple minutes, then add the priming sugar off the heat & stir till water clears again. Sugar being dry, it lacks one of the things nasties need to grow;moisture. Besides the water being boiling hot & pasteurization happening in seconds @ 160F.

 

[jbb3]

That's good to know. I did a brew this weekend that ended up on the high side of the target OG. I added about a half a gallon of bottled spring water to bring it back to target OG. The whole time I'm thinking; I should boil this. Oh heck with it...

 

[unionrdr]

It should be fine as long as the bottle was still sealed when you opened it.

 

[jbb3]

It should be fine as long as the bottle was still sealed when you opened it.

It was a freshly opened gallon. Fingers crossed...

It's a Caramel Amber Ale and I made the candi caramel and everything...

 

[unionrdr]

Might be OK if it had just been opened. I did that the other day when I needed another half gallon of spring water to get recipe volume up to 19L (5.016 USG). I'd just opened it a couple hours earlier & had capped it off again after using some for sparge water. Fine so far, so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Maybe a dumb question but doesn't the all in one have a filter on it? Could it be filtering all of the suspended yeast out of solution meaning that the priming sugar wouldn't have anything to eat to carbonate your beers?

No, the All-In-One does not have a filter unless you add the whole house filter setup...which I haven't!

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Running down the side is not the same as from the bottom up.
You're not filling in a vacuum. It's under lowered pressure. There is still, plenty of air (and oxygen) left in that bottle.

Now splashed beer does not deter carbonation or create a sour taste, but more of a wet cardboard flavor that gets worse with time.

As vincentAlpha said, try a small batch in a more conventional way, bottling bucket (or siphon) and eliminate the pump system.

The lack of carbonation makes the capping process suspect, as many have commented on already. You're not capping twist-off bottles are you?

The sour taste must be from something else. Have you had others taste your beer? What do they say? A seasoned home brewer, BJCP judge, or those in a serious homebrew club could detect and pinpoint the source of off flavors. Do you know anyone like that who could assist?

I have decided that with the next batch I am going to rack and bottle the more conventional way...i.e not using the All-In-One.

As for the capping process...I am definitely not using twist off bottles.

I have had others taste for me but not a seasoned brewer or judge. It is something to consider and I am sure that the local brew shop would help out.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

I don't think this question has been asked yet.. Where are you getting your kits? What " brand " are they? And is there any pattern ? like the batches that come out bad are all from the same place? I just read all 9 pages of this and it just is such an odd issue to have. Especially over an entire batch and then the next batch is good. Also I use nothing but spring water in my beer just to be safe. The tap water could be just fine but god only knows what they add to it so it's drinkable day to day. Good luck

I have gotten my kits from a couple different online retailers. It has happened with kits from both places.

I have used all tap water on batches that have turned out and all spring water on batches that have not.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Just read all 9 pages of this thread. Any update BrewGal?

A few things I thought of:

1 - Chloramine/Campden: you said you are using some tap water for brewing. if this is city/town water, do you know if it's chloramine treated? I know mine is. Chloramine is THE primary suspect for green apple/tartness. Easily treated with a tab of Campden before use.

2 - Boiled top-off water: you didn't actually say if your chilled top-off water was boiled before use to sanitize it. (and if it's chloramine treated tap water, you still need to treat it with campden before use - the boiling doesn't really do the trick). I would also boil the spring water before using that as top-off water.

3 - Boiled/treated bottling primer - again, if you're using tap water with chloramine, is must be treated. I assume the brewing instructions you're using include the essential step of boiling the sugar in a cup or so of water to prepare the bottling primer.

4 - Yeast - I didn't see where you spoke about what yeast you're using and how you're preparing it. Could you share more about this?

Thanks for taking the time to read through the whole thread! I appreciate your thoughts and questions. I don't have an update just because I haven't worked up the courage to try another batch. I have an Amber Bock kit that I really probably start next week following tips and ideas offered here.

My water is well water, no chlorine treatment. I have considered that it could be the water but have made a batch completely with store bought spring water that did not turn out and I always use spring water for topping off.

I have followed procedure and boiling the priming sugar.

The yeast has been whatever came with the kit.

 

[jbb3]

Ok Brew Gal, It's time to get back up on that horse!! :rockin:

 

[mfgann]

I have the exact same results (first brew for me, so it is especially aggravating). I have a Cider vinegar flavor to all the bottles I've opened. On opening a bottle after about 5-6 days I had good carbonation, but a sour flavor. Now after nearly two weeks every one I open is very flat. I did sample before bottling and tasted the flavor, but chalked it up to "green" flavor and continued on. At this point I think I'm going to chalk it up to an infection and hope that the Hefeweizen I have in the fermenter doesn't pick up the same bug.

Good luck.

 

[Kampenken]

....I have followed procedure and boiling the priming sugar.

The yeast has been whatever came with the kit.

I've read thru this too and have a few comments...

As for the capper, do you create dimples on the caps? My opinion is no dimple = no seal (or a limited seal), but maybe that's just my capper.

Next priming sugar, wow 5oz is a lot to me! No idea how you could be under carbed. I've now been priming with table sugar and while its fully fermentable and thus requires less, I use much less. I suggest using a priming sugar calculator and measuring what you need. Also as someone else noted, stir it in well, no splashing. We all seem to handle this part a bit differently but I boil with my priming sugar for 10-15 min, and before pouring into the bottling bucket I spray star san on the inside edges of the pan where I plan to pour.

I don't use oxygenating caps. I've used in the past but will only again when I expect to age for a 1yr or more period. Why tip? To me that's certainly introducing oxygen into the beer.

Finally purchase yeast, those kit yeasts should be tossed. Even if you go with dry yeast that's fine. Do you rehydrate? I would, however you must follow proper and sanitary procedures.

Best of luck, I hope your bad luck has run its course!

Cheers

 

[brewguyver]

I've read thru this too and have a few comments...



As for the capper, do you create dimples on the caps? My opinion is no dimple = no seal (or a limited seal), but maybe that's just my capper.



Next priming sugar, wow 5oz is a lot to me! No idea how you could be under carbed. I've now been priming with table sugar and while its fully fermentable and thus requires less, I use much less. I suggest using a priming sugar calculator and measuring what you need. Also as someone else noted, stir it in well, no splashing. We all seem to handle this part a bit differently but I boil with my priming sugar for 10-15 min, and before pouring into the bottling bucket I spray star san on the inside edges of the pan where I plan to pour.



I don't use oxygenating caps. I've used in the past but will only again when I expect to age for a 1yr or more period. Why tip? To me that's certainly introducing oxygen into the beer.



Finally purchase yeast, those kit yeasts should be tossed. Even if you go with dry yeast that's fine. Do you rehydrate? I would, however you must follow proper and sanitary procedures.



Best of luck, I hope your bad luck has run its course!



Cheers

I'm guessing you use a bench capper? Wing cappers don't dimple - at least none of mine do. Both work fine in my experience.

5z is a lot, but it's the kit standard. It won't ruin anything, but you could end up with fairly overcarbonated beer.

Also - check the date on the yeast on the kit. A lot of them come with yeast that's plenty good enough (e.g. safale brand), but if it's old it won't be that helpful.

Oxygen caps are fine too - I don't user them because if beers sit on their side they get metallic and they can strip aroma from hoppier beers.

One other thing to consider (i haven't read the whole thread, so apologies for repeating others) - if your beer has fermented fine but didn't carbonate, you can always take a little wort from the top of another rapidly fermenting beer (a few ml) and add that to your bottles and recap. It's a takeoff on the krausening procedure. that yeast should be healthy enough to jumpstart your uncarbonated bottles. Just make sure you don't have too much sugar in them - could lead to bottle bombs.

 

[Kampenken]

I'm guessing you use a bench capper? Wing cappers don't dimple - at least none of mine do. Both work fine in my experience.

5z is a lot, but it's the kit standard. It won't ruin anything, but you could end up with fairly overcarbonated beer.

Nope a wing capper, and its always dimpled, I just assumed that was SOP. Both of my brothers also use the same and dimple.

Yup, my point 5oz should over carb, not have issues with under carb / flat, which is why I asked the dimple question, but maybe that's not all wing cappers???

 

[gromitdj]

I have two cappers. My all red one which I believe is a Red Baron capper does not leave a dimple. However, I have a metal handled capper that I believe is from Italy and it does leave a round dimple in the cap. Both, however, have performed equally well.

 

[unionrdr]

My Red Baron capper used to dimple the caps slightly. That's from the magnet on the post in the center of the bell. Also complicated by how a lever-style capper works. My bench capper doesn't dimple them. Boiling the priming solution for 10-15 minutes could be part of the problem, complicated, possibly, by the yeast in the beer nearing it's alcohol tolerance limit by bottling time. I boil 2C of spring water a few minutes, same with tap water. Then add the weighed amount of priming sugar per style to the boiling water off the heat. Stir with a sanitized spoon till the water goes clear again. It is now completely dissolved. & being boiling hot with pasteurization happening in seconds @ 160F, it'll be fine covered till the beer's racked to bottling bucket, etc. Boiling the priming solution could caramelize the sugar just enough to create long-chain sugars the yeast can't metabolize to some degree. This could create a low-carbonation condition.

 

[mfgann]

Does anyone know if the Royal Crown capper dimples? I don't see dimples on my caps, and that might explain my loss of carbonation.

Although, my batch had a sour cider vinegar taste even at the final hydrometer reading, so the cause of the taste happened before bottling.

 

[Kampenken]

My Red Baron capper used to dimple the caps slightly. That's from the magnet on the post in the center of the bell...QUOTE]

Ah ha!!! I have had some w/o dimples when it was a struggle to cap (e.g. the bottle wasn't a long neck but shorter and quicker taper). I always figured these weren't good seals, thus my question originally if a dimple existed. And mine is red (a red baron??!, its about 15yrs old, original with a starter kit, memories!)

Sorry mfgann, I have no idea...

 

[unionrdr]

It doesn't have to dimple them to get a good seal. I think either the length of the neck or it's shape has a lot to do with wing cappers indenting the caps while crimping them. Here's a pic of the Red Baron wing capper;

 

[Kampenken]

Yup, that's the one! That darn magnet sometimes causes trouble too! If not careful at times I either get lazy and don't open 'er up wide enough or possibly that magnet slides the cap slightly off and boom! Folded cap, and not on the bottle!

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Thanks for the continued suggestions, ideas, and thoughts on this post! I finally worked up the nerve to try another batch, which I started last week. I am doing an Amber Bock kit that turned out very good the first time I made it, so I know what it should taste like if all goes well. I did a two gallon boil with tap water and topped with store bought spring water (same procedure as the previous batch of this kit). I paid particular attention to the wort temperature when the yeast was pitched and it was a nice 68°.

So far the wort has been fermenting nicely. It will be a week on Monday so, following kit directions, I will rack to a clean carboy for secondary fermentation. I am NOT going to use the all-in-one pump, just use a simple (and of course, sanitized!) racking cane.

I am trying to make sure that I am patient, thorough, careful, and very sanitary! I am approaching it from the perspective that when I am all done, I will know that there was nothing I could have done better or differently to make it turn out.

Anyway, I will keep you all posted!

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

I've read thru this too and have a few comments...

As for the capper, do you create dimples on the caps? My opinion is no dimple = no seal (or a limited seal), but maybe that's just my capper.

Next priming sugar, wow 5oz is a lot to me! No idea how you could be under carbed. I've now been priming with table sugar and while its fully fermentable and thus requires less, I use much less. I suggest using a priming sugar calculator and measuring what you need. Also as someone else noted, stir it in well, no splashing. We all seem to handle this part a bit differently but I boil with my priming sugar for 10-15 min, and before pouring into the bottling bucket I spray star san on the inside edges of the pan where I plan to pour.

I don't use oxygenating caps. I've used in the past but will only again when I expect to age for a 1yr or more period. Why tip? To me that's certainly introducing oxygen into the beer.

Finally purchase yeast, those kit yeasts should be tossed. Even if you go with dry yeast that's fine. Do you rehydrate? I would, however you must follow proper and sanitary procedures.

Best of luck, I hope your bad luck has run its course!

Cheers

Yes, there are dimples in the caps when I am done and it is a floor capper.

5 oz of priming sugar is what comes pre-packaged in all of the kits I have made.

I started tipping for a couple reasons...one, it confirms that I have a good seal and two, I was told by my local brew shop that it helps get yeast back in suspension when done a week after bottling and helps carbonation. I'm not shaking or anything, just giving a gentle tip so I don't know how, in a well sealed bottle, it would introduce any more oxygen than the bottles get from normal jostling over time???

As for the yeast, fermentation is nice and strong so could it really be a problem with the yeast in the kit? I mean if there is a possibility I would happily toss it but I don't know if I am necessarily getting anything a lot fresher from the local shop.

Thanks for the input! I too hope the bad luck has run it's course and I have an Amber Bock going right now and it this doesn't turn out I am going to give up!

 

[reelmower]

Val-the-Brew-Gal-

I hope your latest batch turns out an exceptional beer. If something is still wrong with this batch .. please don't give up.

It sounds like you know a lot about brewing .. and have probably given yourself a nice .. home schooled brewing education .. trying to combat the issues you've been having.

I would like to suggest if there is still a problem .. for you to brew a few batches on someone else's gear at their place .. to prove you can make good beer. When you know you can brew .. step up your game. Get a couple of corny's .. and toss those bottles .. and don't look back. Put the bad memories in the rear view mirror.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Val-the-Brew-Gal-

I hope your latest batch turns out an exceptional beer. If something is still wrong with this batch .. please don't give up.

It sounds like you know a lot about brewing .. and have probably given yourself a nice .. home schooled brewing education .. trying to combat the issues you've been having.

I would like to suggest if there is still a problem .. for you to brew a few batches on someone else's gear at their place .. to prove you can make good beer. When you know you can brew .. step up your game. Get a couple of corny's .. and toss those bottles .. and don't look back. Put the bad memories in the rear view mirror.

Thanks for the well wishes! I like the suggestion of brewing on someone else's gear. I have also thought about calling the friend who helped me with my very first batch and asking him to come over and just watch my process to see if he can pick up on any mistakes I am making. But I have my fingers crossed that the current batch turns out so well that I can truly but the bad memories behind me!

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

UPDATE!!! Well, after all of the suggestions, ideas, comments and support from everyone regarding this thread, I think I have finally figured out my issue! I recently brewed two batches of beer and today was bottling day. I decided to start with a fresh batch of StarSan to sanitize everything and thought "you know, I should double check the amount to use for my 3 gallons of water..." and to my horrible surprise, I have been mixing it wrong for months and months! I was using about half the correct dose I don't know why my wines have all been fine using it like this...probably the potassium metabisulfite and sorbates have been saving me.

Both batches of beer tasted good today at bottling and I know that everything was properly during the procedure, but brew day was a different matter due to the weak StarSan solution so I don't know how the beer will ultimately turn out. However, I at least feel like I am finally on the way to making better brew in the future!!!

 

[unionrdr]

I figured it had to be something simple. you just have to look deep in your process. Congrats!

 

[WillieP]

Val,
I've read the previous 12 pages with interest, and a hope that the story would have a happy ending.
Please keep us posted on how those last two batched turned out.
I hope that you have found the source of your problems, and now that you are back on the horse you can ride off into the brewing sunset.

Cheers!!

 

[philipCT]

UPDATE!!! Well, after all of the suggestions, ideas, comments and support from everyone regarding this thread, I think I have finally figured out my issue!

Well, one thing is for certain, you've got the tenacity it takes to focus in on a problem, root it out and improve your processes. At this point I am thinking maybe beer brewing IS for you

Congrats and happy brewing!

 

[JohnSand]

Glad to hear it.