Mashing too long???

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GreenSpyder

GreenSpyder

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I've recently upgraded my equipment, and moved my operations to the colder garage (out of the kitchen). I use a 10 gallon Igloo for a mash tun. The first batch I brewed mashed at 142F for 75 minutes, is too light, lacking body, and FG 1.004. This sounds about right, being at the Beta Amylase rest range, and producing mostly maltose.

I did what I could to bring my next batch's temp up (goal 153F)...preheated the tun with 180F water, added much hotter water after my dough in (104F), and got to 153F, but it dropped to 143 after only 45 minutes (and seemed to stay there). So I drained off 2 gallons, boiled it, and added it back in. This took 15 minutes, so the mash sat at 143 for an hour. The boil brought mash temp to 160F, and decreased to 154 over the next hour.

The iodine test showed mostly light brown/amber, but after several seconds, I noticed a filmy, diffuse black haze forming on the top of the puddle (I do this on a white saucer). I'm guessing this was non-converted proteins, and the batch does smells much heartier. I'm hoping for more body on this batch.

So to my question...Is it possible to "over-mash" a grain bed?

I realize what I did amounted to a triple decoction mash, but I've had really good results in the past (in my warm kitchen) doughing in for 15-20 minutes at 105F (protein rest), then mashing at 153F for 75 minutes. I'd try using the 10 gallon brew kettle over a flame for a mash tun (and maintain proper heat), but then I'd need to lauter to the Igloo and back to the kettle for the brew.

Okay, since I'm at it, I'll throw this out too.....I sparged with 1.5 gallons, and lost 6 points of OG. Why should I do this? Other than to make a pre-boil brew volume, which I can achieve with a big mash volume anyway?

So thanks in advance for the advice,
OBTW, I'm loving the 6.5 gallon conical fermenter (I may order a 2nd),
G. Spyder

IMG_0497.jpg
 
If that picture is during your mash then I'd have to say you're losing heat from the lid not being on tight. It could also be a problem that your grain bag hanging out of the cooler is getting cold and pulling heat out of the mash
 
I'm no expert, but I read threads about starches fully converting in as little as 30 minutes, so I don't think that mashing for 75, or a common 90 minutes is too long by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not sure that much else happens once initial conversion is done (unless you take the temp higher and extract tannins).

People sparge to get the most out of their grains. That means boiling longer to end up with target volume and higher OG out of the same grain bill. You can always just mash more, or boil off and get less volume...
 
I don't think you can mash too long but I don't think you will see much difference after the first hour. It seems you problem is loosing temperature. I also use a ten gallon igloo cooler and even mashing in a 34 degree garage this winter I was still only loosing 2 degrees in an hour. Are you keeping your grain in the house before you add it so that it is room temp? I preheat my cooler with about 1.5 quart of boiling water from a tea kettle rather than 180 degree water, but if you are using 3 or so gallons of 180, that should have the same effect. Are you draining the preheat water? If not you are not really preheating as that water will have cooled and then you are still keeping it in the tun.

Not sure why the 104 degree dough in. I put my mash water volume in the cooler (beersmith to calculate the volume and temp, which is usually about 3.5 gal at 165 degrees) then add the grains and stir as needed to bring the temp down a degree or two if needed. Otherwise you are trying to raise wet grain temp which requires a lot more BTU than dry grain.

How much are you stirring to ensure your have a constant temp across the grain bed before putting on the lid? For that much drop I am thinking you have some colder (i.e. 104 degree) pockets that are not being stirred in and are lowering the temperature over the course of the hour as they equalize.

Some of the things I can think of

1. make sure your grains are at room temp
2. preheat the cooler and then dump the preheat water
3. dough in at a higher temp and stir your mash to lower the temp the last degree or two.
4. stir well before putting on the lid to ensure you have a even temperature across the grain bed. (probe several spots with your thermometer looking for cold spots.)
 
PGEduardo said:
I'm no expert, but I read threads about starches fully converting in as little as 30 minutes, so I don't think that mashing for 75, or a common 90 minutes is too long by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not sure that much else happens once initial conversion is done (unless you take the temp higher and extract tannins).

People sparge to get the most out of their grains. That means boiling longer to end up with target volume and higher OG out of the same grain bill. You can always just mash more, or boil off and get less volume...
Click to expand...

I'm not an expert either but from experimenting I've done I've found that the actual conversion from starch to sugar takes less than 3 minutes. Yes, that is a 3. However, for that conversion to occur you have to get the starches wet for the enzymes to do their work and with the average crush on the grain it will take considerably longer for the starches to all get wet. Your mash time then will depend on the quality of your crush.

If your grains are not crushed well it may take upwards of 90 minutes for the particles to wet through and during this time the starches that do get wet convert. If your temperature falls during this mash time, the starches that take longer to get wet are acted on more by the beta amylase and will get you more fermentable wort.
 
You have a couple of options:
- If its really cold out, do your mash in the kitchen where its warmer and you haven't had any problems.
-Get a propane heater for the garage, wrap a blanket around the cooler.
-Have a pot of simmering water (maybe 1 or 1.5 gallon) in the kitchen, if your mash temp drops, use a step mash calculator to figure how many qts of boiling water to add, scoop out the simmering water into a sauce pan and you'll have the needed boiling water in a few mins.
From here it looks like it would be easier to just use the kitchen for the mash when its cold, then you could still do the boil out in the garage.
When it warms up you can take the whole process outside.
As far as your other questions, I don't think you lost any gravity points when sparging, you just ended up with the same gravity you would have gotten with a full wort mash.
I like to keep things simple, if you like the beer for a full wort mash and its easier for you, I'd say go with that.
 
"The iodine test showed mostly light brown/amber, but after several seconds, I noticed a filmy, diffuse black haze forming on the top of the puddle (I do this on a white saucer). I'm guessing this was non-converted proteins,"

It was starch. What you discovered is natural. Iodine will show positive and then black streaks will form. Next time, when you drop the Iodine in the sample, allow it to rest a minute or two and then take the dropper and streak the Iodine through the sample. If the Iodine stays positive, good to go, If black color forms on the edges of the streaks, not good to go. A few tablespoons of mash liquid are needed.

Try not to boil the mash liquid until conversion is complete or near completion. The liquid is where the enzymes hang out and they will denature when the liquid is boiled.

The rest at 104F was at the high end of the acid rest. Maybe, if beta glucanase was in the malt, something may happen at 104F. However, beta glucanase doesn't survive kilning. You wasted time on the rest if you think it did anything with protein. The temperature range for proteolysis to begin is around 120F. But, pH needs to be very close to optimum for proteolytic enzymes to do their thing.

You didn't use the tri-decoction method.

If you want to mess around a little bit and add a little more character/complexity to the final product, try this:
1. Rest the mash at 95F and allow pH to stabilize. After 10 minutes, check pH. The pH measured, will come from the inherent pH of the grain. With RO, pH usually falls to 5.8/5.7. When crystal or black malt is in the mix, pH will be a little lower. If pH is 5.8/5.7, add sour malt and reduce pH to 5.5, before going to the next step.
2. Remove a portion of very thick mash (first decoction) and dump into a pot or kettle, whatever. Add enough mash liquid to keep the mash from scorching, as the heat is cranked up.
3. Raise the temperature of the decoction to 125F and rest it for 20 minutes. At 125F the protein needed (Albumin) will start to take shape.
4. Raise the temperature of the decoction to 155F (Alpha) and allow the decoction to convert, or at least rest it for 20 minutes. The mash will darken as conversion takes place. The rest temperature ties in with the pH established during the acid rest to favor Alpha.
5. Bring the decoction to boiling. The mash will jell, which is something you haven't encountered before. Now, here is where you can get exotic. Depending on how you want the final product to turn out. The decoction can be boiled past Maillard and then, Mellanoidin will form. Since, enzymatic action is nil in the main mash. The first decoction can be screwed with for quite a long time.
6. Dump the decoction into the main mash to raise the temperature from 95 to around 130F. The rest time will be based upon step 7... A rest in the lower 130s will reduce beta glucan, converting it to glucose. Proteolytic enzymes will do the job. Mash viscosity will reduce during the rest. Beta and yeast enjoy glucose.
7. When the temperature of the main mash stabilizes, remove a portion of thick mash (second decoction) and increase the temperature as quickly as possible to 145F and rest the decoction for 10 minutes. Then, boil the mash for 10 minutes. The mash will jell. Do not scorch the mash.
8. Check pH in the main mash, if it is still around 5.5, add sour malt and reduce pH to 5.3. Then, dump the decoction into the main mash to raise the temperature from 130 to 149F. The clock is now ticking. When the mash temperature stabilizes, remove a portion of thick mash (third decoction) and quickly raise the temperature to 155F and rest it for 10 minutes. Then, bring it to boiling and boil for 10 minutes.
9. Dump the decoction into the main mash to raise the temperature from 149 to 158F and rest until conversion takes place.
10. Remove the mash liquid (mash out) and bring it to boiling and dump it into the main mash to reach 169F. Rest for 10 minutes and run off the extract.

When you look at pictures of crushed grain, you'll notice chunks of white stuff. The chunks are hard starch. The starch is heat resistant and enzymes do very little to it. Even, when the grain is ground to powder, enzymes do very little to the starch. The powdered starch ends up in the bottle. The chunks contain the thing responsible for producing body and mouthfeel in beer. It is called amylopectin, which is slightly different in make up than amylose.
A few lines up, I mentioned that the mash will jell up when it is boiled. Boiling bursts the hard starch, releasing amylopectin. The amylopectin causes the mash to jell. When amylopectin forms, enzymes switch gears. They slow down.
During the several saccharification temperatures used throughout the process, Beta and Alpha will convert the amylopectin to A and B-limit dextrin. Limit dextrin creates body and mouthfeel in beer. Limit dextrin, although non-fermentable, should not be confused with non-fermentable sugar produced during single infusion, high temperature saccharification methods.

Now, you have a 10 step process which will allow your nimble brewing fingers to create the finest beer possible. It is the true, tri-decoction method. I began learning about the method in 1987 and it is the only method which I have used since that date.
 
I use extra insulation on my mashtun and an electric blanket if it is cold. Having said that, you just need to adjust your process to overcome the greater temp differential. Try using the tools in beer smith to get the correct mash-in temp. Check your mashtun temp and grain temp, adjust according to the software.
 
The amount of Beta Glucanase, if any, that survives kilning of modern malt isn't enough to shift the mash. For that reason Beta Glucanase enzyme is manufactured and sold to brewers for use during the Beta Glucanase rest. If Beta Glucanase survived kilning, maltase and dextrinase would be present and they are not present in modern malt. The texts you mentioned, that disagree with me, were taken from the IOB. The problem is that the ten pages that went with the original text, explaining that when a Beta Glucanase rest is employed with high modified malt, Beta Glucanase has to be added, didn't get into the articles that you deem, gospel. The only malt available in America that had Beta Glucanase and enough of it to shift the mash was Budvar. It was around before you had any idea that homebrewing existed. Whether you know it or not, there isn't a malt data sheet, which indicates Beta Glucanase level. However, it will have the Beta Glucan and viscosity percentage on it. Under modified low kilned lager malt does. I wonder why?
No doubt, you are a brewing wizard and developed a brewing process which has the ability to allow standard brewers malt to convert in 3 to 10 minutes, by properly wetting it and grinding husk and all into powder. It may be a good idea for you to contact the guy that has produced genetically modified malt, which is being tested. Because he can only get full conversion down to 10 minutes in a Lab. You may want to tell him how your method converts standard brewers malt in 3 minutes, in your kitchen, in a bag made from curtain material. You'll make a fortune.
No doubt you knew what was taking place within the mash at 105F. The only problem was, that you didn't let the brewer know about it. But, the real problem was, you had no idea and you thought that it was a protein rest as the brewer did. The rest was useless from a protein stand point.
The rest is usually employed with wheat based mash and is followed by the ferulic rest and a higher temperature proteolysis rest. The pH has to be spot on for the ferulic rest to work. Of coarse you knew that. Nah, you didn't. Here's what took place. The mash was in the acid rest range. It was also in the range at which proteolytic enzymes are active. Since, no measurable amount of Beta Glucanase is in modern malt, proteolytic enzymes working on mash at 105F, created Beta Glucan from the hemicellulose part of the malt. I am sure you know what that is. Nah, you don't. Since beta glucan formed and there wasn't another rest that would convert the beta glucan, it ended up in the bottle, along with unconverted starch.
 
VladOfTrub said:
The amount of Beta Glucanase, if any, that survives kilning of modern malt isn't enough to shift the mash. For that reason Beta Glucanase enzyme is manufactured and sold to brewers for use during the Beta Glucanase rest. If Beta Glucanase survived kilning, maltase and dextrinase would be present and they are not present in modern malt. The texts you mentioned, that disagree with me, were taken from the IOB. The problem is that the ten pages that went with the original text, explaining that when a Beta Glucanase rest is employed with high modified malt, Beta Glucanase has to be added, didn't get into the articles that you deem, gospel. The only malt available in America that had Beta Glucanase and enough of it to shift the mash was Budvar. It was around before you had any idea that homebrewing existed. Whether you know it or not, there isn't a malt data sheet, which indicates Beta Glucanase level. However, it will have the Beta Glucan and viscosity percentage on it. Under modified low kilned lager malt does. I wonder why?
No doubt, you are a brewing wizard and developed a brewing process which has the ability to allow standard brewers malt to convert in 3 to 10 minutes, by properly wetting it and grinding husk and all into powder. It may be a good idea for you to contact the guy that has produced genetically modified malt, which is being tested. Because he can only get full conversion down to 10 minutes in a Lab. You may want to tell him how your method converts standard brewers malt in 3 minutes, in your kitchen, in a bag made from curtain material. You'll make a fortune.
No doubt you knew what was taking place within the mash at 105F. The only problem was, that you didn't let the brewer know about it. But, the real problem was, you had no idea and you thought that it was a protein rest as the brewer did. The rest was useless from a protein stand point.
The rest is usually employed with wheat based mash and is followed by the ferulic rest and a higher temperature proteolysis rest. The pH has to be spot on for the ferulic rest to work. Of coarse you knew that. Nah, you didn't. Here's what took place. The mash was in the acid rest range. It was also in the range at which proteolytic enzymes are active. Since, no measurable amount of Beta Glucanase is in modern malt, proteolytic enzymes working on mash at 105F, created Beta Glucan from the hemicellulose part of the malt. I am sure you know what that is. Nah, you don't. Since beta glucan formed and there wasn't another rest that would convert the beta glucan, it ended up in the bottle, along with unconverted starch.
Click to expand...

Dang, I'm sorry to hear that Noonan was so wrong about beta glucanase.

Noonan says beta-glucanase enzymes denature above 140, and that "with reasonably well converted malt, manageable amounts of beta-glucans may be liberated from hemicellulose by proteolytic enzymes during a 95 to 113 degree F (35 to 45 degree C) mash rest.
Click to expand...

You would also think that an organization like BJCP would quit producing incorrect info about beta glucan rests too.

http://www.bjcp.org/course/Class4Lesson1MashingProcessTechniques.php

Maybe George Fix needs to talk with you too since he seems to be under the impression that a beta glucan rest works.

beta glucanase The enzyme which breaks down beta-glucans, which hold together branced starch molecules. This term is most commonly associated with George Fix, who championed the now famous 40/60/70 mashing schedule. The 40C rest breaks down beta-glucans, which in turn has been shown to give higher extraction yields.
Click to expand...
 
I've mashed overnight (6-8 hours) a few times with good results. The mash temperature went from 155-140.
 
Wow, some amazing replies, thanks to everyone.

Subdivisions: No, that's just a photo of my equipment after cleaning, sitting on the garage bench I use to brew now. I use the grain bag to make a seal around the edges of the false bottom and clog the hole in the middle, since I put it over the water heater hose braid I connected to the ball valve. I want to strain as much schmutz out as possible.

rimiller10: I do the 104F rest because according to The Prophet John Palmer, Chapter 14 Verse 3, "...the use of a 20 minute rest at temperatures near 104°F (40°C) has been shown to be beneficial to improving the yield from all enzymatic malts. This step is considered optional but can improve the total yield by a couple of points." Also, it just seems a bit harsh to spill 180F water directly onto my grain, I don't want to scorch the little babies.

VladOfTrub: Regarding the iodine test: I like having some large protein left over, I understand it's responsible for the head, mouth feel and body. I think I converted it all out of my first batch. No?

Okay, so I guess the answer is "NO", I really can't mash too long, based on the majority of replies, and thanks for all of those.

Using different equipment and a new location to brew, I'll need to relearn my equipment all over again. Should provide an interesting journey. I'll definitely start using a blanket of some kind around my mash tun, maybe design a custom jacket with removable lid (velcro flaps?) so I can still stir and test temperatures. I've read about brewers who inject the lid with insulation foam, maybe I'll try that too.

The internet searching I've done has also led me to believe that I'm lautering and sparging way too fast. I can improve there also.

To date, I've never taken a pH reading, and haven't calculated brewhouse efficiency, although any technique Palmer says will improve points I try to use. <<Pulling a finger out of my nose and inspecting>> In the four years I've been brewing though, I haven't had a bad batch, and my Beer-Snob-Buddies always ask for another bottle. Maybe I'm just lucky, Denver water purity, or sheer beginners luck.

Again, thanks for the intelligent, well though out replies.
Green Spyder
 

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