Mash time

[nolabrew85]

Do y'all find that a longer mash time is needed when mashing at lower temps (e.g. 145-148) to get the same extraction? What length of time do y'all find works best? I'm doing a dry Pilsner. For a while I was doing 75 minute mashes and 90-100 books, but it just seems brew day keeps getting longer. I'd like to shorten it up some. Thanks!

 

[Aristotelian]

Try it and see. I think after about 40 minutes or so you start to get diminishing returns. My typical mash profile is 15m @ 145F and 45m @ 154F.

 

[slym2none]

I typically mash for 75-90 minutes no matter what. IDK if it helps, I just do it for assurance.

 

[RM-MN]

The time needed for your mash is directly correlated to the quality of the crush. While I don't mash that low, I find that at 154 and a very fine crush (BIAB) conversion is over in less than 20 minutes. The main reason that long mashes are used is that it takes time for the water to reach all the starches and gelatinize them. The larger the particles, the longer it takes until with whole grains it may take many hours. Manage your grain crush and you shorten the time. Now if you use a conventional mash tun that fine crush may make draining the tun a real adventure but nobody said that you can't line the tun with a nice curtain and when your drain plugs up, just lift up the curtain and you create a much larger filter that is really hard to plug.

 

[Yooper]

In general, if I mash under 150 degrees, I do mash a bit longer. The theory is that at cooler mash temperatures, it may take a bit longer for complete conversion.

You can test for conversion with iodine, or you can just assume that it is converted after a length of time.

I also may mash a bit longer if I"m using a lot of adjuncts, like oats or rice, especially if it's at 147 degrees.

 

[kh54s10]

I create my recipes in Beersmith. I select the mash profile from the menu. Light body single infusion batch sparge, medium body... or full body, to suit the style.

I then mash for the length of time that the program tells me to. I use the timer in the program.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Iodine only determines if starch is or isn't present. It cannot differentiate between saccharification and conversion. Conversion has nothing to do with starch. Starch is liquefied by alpha and glucose forms (non-reducing end). Beta converts glucose into maltose and malto-triose during the maltose rest. The sugar does not ferment the same way that glucose ferments. Yeast contains enzymes that convert maltose and malto-triose into glucose during secondary fermentation and during the conditioning phase. The glucose is used as fuel and gravity decreases during second fermentation. During conditioning natural carbonation occurs.

 

[Yooper]

Iodine only determines if starch is or isn't present. It cannot differentiate between saccharification and conversion. Conversion has nothing to do with starch. Starch is liquefied by alpha and glucose forms (non-reducing end). Beta converts glucose into maltose and malto-triose during the maltose rest. The sugar does not ferment the same way that glucose ferments. Yeast contains enzymes that convert maltose and malto-triose into glucose during secondary fermentation and during the conditioning phase. The glucose is used as fuel and gravity decreases during second fermentation. During conditioning natural carbonation occurs.

Conversion has everything to do with starch! The iodine test is one way to determine whether there is any residual starch that lacks conversion.

The whole point of a saccharification rest has to do with the diastatic enzymes acting on the starches, breaking them up into sugars (hence the term saccharification).

The debranching of amylopectins and conversion of amylose is the whole point of the mash.

 

[dmtaylor]

Do y'all find that a longer mash time is needed when mashing at lower temps (e.g. 145-148) to get the same extraction? What length of time do y'all find works best? I'm doing a dry Pilsner. For a while I was doing 75 minute mashes and 90-100 books, but it just seems brew day keeps getting longer. I'd like to shorten it up some. Thanks!

No. I've been mashing for just 40 minutes for 10 years, many many times at just 147-148 F. Conversion happens fast with 21st century malts and there's very little advantage to mashing any longer unless you want the utmost fermentability/attenuation/low FG. Otherwise, 40 minutes is just fine. Or maybe 45.

 

[jerbrew]

I go do things for at least 40 minutes. I then do an iodine test. If its black I go do other things for 15 minutes. The mash needs no attention from me once the temp is stable so I get everything ready for the rest of the brew day. somehow it seems even when the brew day is done there's 15 more minutes of things I could do so I don't sweat the mash time.

 

[dmtaylor]

Some of us (like me) are so devoted to brew day that we do nothing but brew, so for people like us, cutting down on unnecessary brew time gives us more time before and after to get all those other things done. Different strokes.

 

[Johow]

I just mashed in a couple minutes ago and now the wife and I are gonna go walk dogs at the local shelter. My mash will go till we get back, probably about 3 hours. So if You need a longer mash, find something productive to do in the meanwhile...My good buddy mashes in before he goes to bed and then lauters in the morning.

 

[capt82]

I did BIAB this last year and fought poor efficiencies compared to tun/sparge.
I was told on this forum by someone to try increasing mash time from 60 to 90 minutes. I was already squeezing bag and double crushing grains and was only getting in low to mid 60's. When I increased the mash time, I finally hit a 70% efficiency.

 

[dmtaylor]

Crush crush crush, then mash time won't matter.

 

[RM-MN]

I did BIAB this last year and fought poor efficiencies compared to tun/sparge.
I was told on this forum by someone to try increasing mash time from 60 to 90 minutes. I was already squeezing bag and double crushing grains and was only getting in low to mid 60's. When I increased the mash time, I finally hit a 70% efficiency.

Double crushing doesn't do much if the mill gap is too wide to start with. Increasing the mash time compensates partially for the poor quality of the crush. :rockin:

 

[VladOfTrub]

The proper term is mash conversion, not starch conversion. Start with the proper term.
Amylo-pectin is responsible for limit dextrin. Besides, soaking grain in hot water doesn't do much with the starch and only on a very rare occurrence does limit dextrin form from amylose. Debranching enzymes are more so maltase and dextrinase which are beat to death during kilning.
Alpha works first, that is why it is called Alpha and all that it does is release glucose and sweet sugar from amylose. The dextrin thing is a little different. Gelatinization is part of it. Conversion cannot occur unless Alpha works first. Conversion has to do with one sugar converting into another sugar. A simple sugar into a more complex sugar, di and tri saccharides which do not ferment in the same manner as glucose. Amylase softens starch and alpha severs the starch chain at a link and that is all, hydrolysis. The link is a 1-4 link in amylose, simple starch. When the chain is severed a reducing end and a non reducing end form. The reducing end contains links and alpha continues to severe the chain until there are no longer any links left and sweet, non-fermenting sugar is left and on a rare occurrence limit dextrin forms and that is why sometimes single infusion beer seems to turn out a little better. The non-reducing end is glucose which is responsible for primary fermentation. Beta cuts off two molecules of glucose and forms maltose, it is called conversion. Home made beer is primed because it contains very little maltose and malto-triose. The wort produced by single infusion is sugar imbalanced primarily made up of sweet non-fermenting sugar and glucose, there is no need to use a secondary fermentation vessel. Fermentation is rapid and that's the reason why distillers use the method.
At one time I used a brewers glocosometer to determine glucose level during the maltose rest. If glucose was high, the maltose rest was stretched out or malt was added. An Alpha/Beta enzyme can be added. Enzymes are produced for a reason ant they are used to correct enzymatic deficiencies in the malt.
If you are using iodine that is able to differentiate between saccharification and conversion let us know who produces it. Malt is tested at 153F to determine total sugar content. The test does not indicate the types of sugar that are formed and neither does iodine. Take a look at a malt data sheet, most of the time saccharification is indicated, however some maltsters indicate conversion time. The tests are performed at different temperatures, 145F is used to determine conversion and alpha is active at 145F. Saccharification test is performed at 155F, beta denatures.
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