Mash Temp Control w/ Boil Kettle

[cod3ck]

I was originally going to upgrade to a HERMS system then got talked out of that thanks to you all!

Next option is a RIMS... But then I got to thinking (always a bad idea I know [emoji23])...

I have a 3 vessel 10 gallon keggle system and when I'm mashing, the BK sits idle. So why not tap into this heat source for mash temp control?!

Only draw back I've come across so far is I think I may need two pumps to pull this off... But first, I figured I'd try my luck with gravity --

Here's a quick sketch I came up with:
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491151323.316160.jpg

The idea is the MT is full, and the BK has wort in it covering the element; which is directly level with port #1. My hope is because of the liquid offset, the MT can gravity feed into the BK, and then the BK wort would be heated and then recirculated back into the MT by the pump.

Has anyone tried this?!

 

[cod3ck]

Interesting... not sure if the gravity concept works, but looks like I may be onto something:

http://onbrewing.com/7-homebrewery-designs-and-their-rationale/

 

[cod3ck]

+1 more:

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/breweasy

....[emoji57]

 

[microbusbrewery]

That basically is a RIMS, you're just using a really big RIMS tube (your BK). A couple problems I see. Depending on how high your element is mounted, you may have a lot of mash liquid in your BK/RIMS. I have my sight glass mounted as low as possible in my BK and the first volume mark is around 4 gallons. Assuming your element is somewhere near that level, you'll probably have around 3-4 gallons in it in order to keep the element submerged. That along with the liquid in the mash, the hoses, and the pump is going to result in a pretty thin mash. You probably won't be able to sparge much because your mash volume will be so high. Another problem, you're heating a large volume of liquid but not returning all of the liquid to the mash like you are with a traditional HERMS/RIMS. That may or may not be an issue depending on what you're planning on doing. For example, single infusion mash, probably not a problem. Step mash, seems like it would take longer (or more energy would be required) since you're heating a larger volume of liquid. Finally, unlike a traditional RIMS setup where the mash liquor is only in contact with the element for a moment, yours is going to be in contact for a relatively long period of time, so you could see increased caramelization of the wort. Are you planning on using a controller for the element in the BK? Most HERMS/RIMS setups measure the temp exiting the heat exchanger/RIMS tube.

 

[cod3ck]

Great points @microbusbrewery!

I measured it and you're correct, the element in the boil kettle sits at 3.5 gallons... So just to ensure I'm getting proper flow, I've moved the boil Kettle closer to the floor:

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491710631.291727.jpg

My thought was based on the breweasy design though that the 3.5 gallons may not be an issue (they recommend filling each tank half full with a similar Kettle layout)..?

Also, my intention is to use the same 5500 watt ULWD element I'm using to boil, so volume shouldn't be an issue, and as long as I'm continuously pumping the mash and using the boil controller (I'm going to start with an SSVR since I already have this, then cutover to a PID if the design works), caramelization can be avoided as well..?

 

[Jwin]

What your are talking about is called a grant. Would be easier to accomplish with a small(2-5g) kettle and, since you are electric indoors, hotplate.
Now, it's time to consider long term. What will you still be happy with 4-5+ years down the road. Buy one, cry once. You can get a cheap kettle online for $20 and a hotplate for $20. Add a bulkhead and valve, another $20.
For that amount, you could grab another keg and mount your element lower.
Other options, insulate your mash tun and maybe incorporate an external heater.
Or, add a bag to your tun, stand, and mount another element. I assume you have some form of PID. Just get rtd probes and move a couple cables.

Realistically, if you don't intend on step mashing, insulating you tun will be easiest and cheapest. Tons of threads on it. If that doesn't cut it, it's still money well spent.

Using a grant system correctly, to my knowledge, usually involves using a small amount of wort as to not denature enzymes. 3.5+ gallons is roughly 1/4 of your wort, assuming 10g batches. Not small.

Again, it's up to you. Food for thought. A grant involves way more babysitting and calculations than a rims or direct fired tun. And if it's not working for you and your workflow, then it's money/time wasted.

I would look at repurposing your existing gear differently, by using your​ PID and cables to either direct fire or implement a RIMS.

Look at the thrifty rims tube from jaybird/norcal.
You can also get by with one pump with some three way valves.
Proflowdynamics.com is the best source for those IMO. Numerous discount codes. Try HF25/HF20/HF15 and Google if those don't work.
Also check there black Friday. Got all my camlocks for 40% off!
Cheers!

 

[cod3ck]

@Jwin -- I really wanted the K-RIMS to work, but I think you just sold me on a direct (probably thrifty) RIMS setup... long term I really want the flexibility on beer styles (including step mash) and efficiency

One last question -- should I try and design this to pull 240v or is 120v (since I'll need to heat Sparge water as well) sufficient?

 

[Jwin]

Again, that's cost/benefit. If you have 220/240 available, I would go that route just because it's faster. Just make sure you have all the necessary gfci in place.
If you don't have the circuit present, with enough amps to meet your needs, then you have to factor in the cost of adding it, which isn't cheap.
You could also look at a split setup, with a 120 rims and your kettles on 240 with your rims on a different circuit. That way, you are not restricted on available amps and can freely heat water, boil and mash all at once. Again, it really depends on current availability, costs and end goal.
I forget who, but someone has built a super log rims here with a cartridge heater. Super low watt density.
There's also the option of using heater wire. Both, as a sorta reversed rims/counter flow and to direct heat your kettle.
But if you are going all electric, a simple rims is the easiest, off the shelf solution.

Hope that helps

 

[dragonlor20]

@brewApprentice So I have the system that you are trying to build.

I have a blichman kettle 15g with a 15g keggle for my mash with a false bottom. Previously I had the orange cooler 10g.

I gravity fed to the element/kettle and then pumped back up and over the mash. This worked well to control mash temps. The problem was that you really have to stay on the system. For all of the advantages of electric, running your system this way doesn't allow you to walk away. The reason is that a quick stuck mash and your element is going to go dry. That's what happened to me. Luckily I caught it quickly enough that I was able to salvage my element - I don't think it runs at full capacity now but I can boil 13g.

Sooo the way I run it now is to us no-sparge. I put the full water amount in the system, heat it up and mash. Every 15 min I drop the mash water into the kettle and heat and then pump it back up. I have figured out that with beersmith I can calculate necessary heat on a smaller partial volume of the mash and then add it back in so I don't have to stop the mash timer.

Downsides are efficiency isn't great. I run high 50s, low 60s. In theory this doesn't add time, but in practice it takes longer.

Upsides are that the beer is great. I consistently brew awesome beer on my equipment. It's really simple and low maintenance - less vessels is less cleaning. It's really automated - I use lots of valves to direct water to recirculate versus fill the mash tun. Oh! And I always fill the mash from the bottom, making it even simpler. I just stir once I have the full volume.