Mash ph

[Chrisbrewbeers]

Since I got a ph meter I have used ro water and built up with salts using Brewers friend. Two pale ales and a saison so far. The two pale ales were both 5.02 ph with a 4 gallon mash and 5 gal added for batch sparge which was 5.2 ph sample. The grain bill was light
9 lb 2 row
8 oz 20 l
4 oz Acidulated
2 oz calcium chloride and gypsum total
This is way lower than the Brewers friend estimates and it's been consistent so wondering if that lower than ideal ph is bad. I was really surprised to see it that low. The third beer I tested was an all Pilsner saison with 4 oz Acidulated and that was 4.9 ph. There's more to this which might not be as relevant so I'm going to cut it shorter and just say I'd really appreciate any advice from those that have more experience.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

2oz of salts is a crazy high amount. That puts you in the 500 to 1000ppm range for Ca (assuming a 5gal batch). This would cause a really low pH.

 

[JonM]

I usually use about 5 grams of CaCl in the mash, which is a little less than 1/5 of an ounce.

Are you sure your pH meter is calibrated?

 

[Yooper]

Do you mean grams of the salts? Because an oz is a boatload.

For a super hoppy beer, I may use 5-10 grams of gypsum in 7 gallons of water. That's 1-2 teaspoons, but usually it's closer to the 5 grams (one teaspoon).

5 grams is .17 of an ounce.

What is your water profile with your recipe and those additions? You have a bit over 3% acid malt from my quick math, which is ok if you're using alkaline water but probably not needed (at least, not so much of it) with RO water.

 

[Chrisbrewbeers]

I meant 2 tsp of each, Brewers friend called the recipe balanced with those additions and ro water. I also assume the way to tell Brewers friend I'm using is just leave water report blank. I calibrated the meter every time I used it too. The pale ale definitely tastes crisp but it's not bad tasting I don't think. I just barely got it carbed right in the keg.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Two teaspoons of each is way too much (IMO).

I quickly put your numbers into Bru'n water (my preferred calculator) and got an estimated mash pH of 4.96 based on 5g (approx. 1tsp) of gypsum and 5g of Calcium chloride being added to the mash. If you added all of your salts to the mash it should be even lower.

I suggest you stick to 5 to 10g max. TOTAL (combined chloride and sulphate; half in the mash, half in the boil), unless you are pushing the boundaries with a particular style (eg. looking for a Burton style English Pale Ale).

 

[Kerrbrewer]

Chrisbrewer,
Are you treating your water first then mashing? I used to do that and had all sorts of problems. I changed my process and things went much smoother. I used brewers friend to give me a idea of what I might need and let my mash tell me how much. I dough in, take a sample after 5 minutes, pour it on a plate to cool, take ph reading, add salts to mash to get desired ph, then treat sparge water. YMMV, but it works much better for me.

 

[Chrisbrewbeers]

I do treat the water before mashing. I have more than one solution in mind at this point.
1. Use less salts or add them after mash.
2. Use the whole 9 gallons at once in a no sparge.
3. Try carbon filtering my tap water and see how the ph of that turns out.
I might try what Kerr brewer suggested because I can't get brun water to update values for me since I used it a long time ago and I don't think it tells you phosphoric acid.

 

[MaryB]

I just did a 11 gallon batch, 16 pounds 2 row, 3 lbs Victory, 1 pound Extra Dark Crystal. Going from memory but I think I used 3.8 grams of Calcium Chloride and around 1.8 of gypsum and a tiny pinch of salt(.8 grams I think) in the mash. Sparge was a tiny bit higher... like an extra .2 grams of each. My paper work is out in the garage yet so don't have the exact numbers. But the combined quantity of all the salts was about a teaspoon at best...

 

[Chrisbrewbeers]

I'm planning as of right now using Kerrbrewers idea and just mashing in with ro then take ph and add salts if it is high. I have had a better taste of the beer now and it reminds me a bit of an extract kit I did without realizing I had added salts and that was carbon filtered tap water meant for all grain 9 gallon no sparge which those were turning out way better. I might even just go back to the no sparge method and check the ph since before I got meter that was producing okay beer. I am hearing the message to use less salts from everyone, that's a general consensus.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

You are thinking about salts in the wrong way. Don't think of them as something for adjusting pH - they do affect pH, and this needs to be accounted for - but their purpose is primarily for taste. Start by deciding which salts you want for taste and add these to ALL of your brewing water. If you are unsure, just add a teaspoon of Calcium chloride for each 5gal of water, or 1/2 Calcium chloride + 1/2 Calcium sulphate for hoppy beers (you do need to add some Calcium to RO water).

After adding the salts, adjust the pH of the mash by adding acid (lactic or phosphoric) to adjust pH (or Bicarb Soda/Baking Soda if the pH is too low - should only happen with beers with lots of dark grains, like Brown ales).

 

[Yooper]

You are thinking about salts in the wrong way. Don't think of them as something for adjusting pH - they do affect pH, and this needs to be accounted for - but their purpose is primarily for taste. Start by deciding which salts you want for taste and add these to ALL of your brewing water. If you are unsure, just add a teaspoon of Calcium chloride for each 5gal of water, or 1/2 Calcium chloride + 1/2 Calcium sulphate for hoppy beers (you do need to add some Calcium to RO water).

After adding the salts, adjust the pH of the mash by adding acid (lactic or phosphoric) to adjust pH (or Bicarb Soda/Baking Soda if the pH is too low - should only happen with beers with lots of dark grains, like Brown ales).

Exactly!!!!

Think of salts as 'seasoning' (salt, actually). If you're making spaghetti sauce, you may want a little salt (sodium chloride) and some garlic (say, gypsum) and some oregano (calcium chloride).

But, the main important part is the tomatoes. If that's wrong (your mash pH and water), no amount of salt, garlic, or oregano would fix it. Adding more oregano (calcium chloride) might make it worse, and not better.

So think of the salts as flavor ions (your 'spices'). THEN you'll be on the right path.

You can make a fine beer without any additions, as long as your mash pH is in range. You can make a better with a bit more of your preferences for flavor with a little addition. Adding too much (OUNCES, instead of grams) will NOT make the best beer.