Mash ph made simple: school me!

[mrbeachroach]

Hello friends. I just read the two chapters in Palmer's book about water quality and PH regarding brewing.

I am in extract Brewer and realize that after this point I have not had to pay attention to any of the stuff. By the way I just found this out.

I had my mind set on all grain brewing and getting the equipment I need and starting the process of start to finish this new style. AG.

After reading the chapter about pH and realizing that it is much more important with all grain, I'm a little bit intimidated.

I am thinking holy crap I did not realize all of this.

Someone put the hope and joy back into my life and the sparkle in my eye regarding switching over to our green and let me know that it is actually easier than it sounds. Please!

A realistic understand how much time and attention actually takes when you pay attention to pH, and perhaps a simple way to make mods. Thank you in advance!!!!

 

[mongoose33]

I don't particularly care for how Palmer does it in his book. Too complicated for a beginning "how to brew" book. But then, he's changed how he approaches this in the new one, it's more an encyclopedia than a beginning book, IMO. And who knows, maybe that's what he's trying to do.

Anyway, to allay your concerns--I had them when I started too, so they are not unique to you--we can help you with a water spreadsheet that helps tell you what to do w/r/t water. I use EZ Water and BrunWater. BrunWater is high-end, but can be a bit difficult to understand. EZ Water pretty easy.

EZ Water: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

BrunWater: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Beersmith also has a water section; I have Beersmith but I've never used it for this.

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To use your own tap water you have to know what's in it--or get lucky. Palmer once said if your water tastes good you can brew good beer, but that's only true if it happens to fit the style you're brewing. Mine wasn't, and isn't, so I needed to learn what was in it (Ward Labs will do a water report on a sample of your water), or use Reverse Osmosis (RO) or distilled water and build up a water profile from that.

And if there's chlorine or chloramines in it, which if it's municipal water supply there probably is--you need to switch water to RO or use a Campden tablet to neutralize them.

Ward Labs Brewer's Test: https://producers.wardlab.com/pay/order-brewers-kit.php?step=1&op=kit

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Short version of pH: The enzymes and mash conversion works best in a specific pH range. What that range is varies depending on who you ask, but 5.2 to 5.5 is pretty good.

Water that is alkaline has a high pH; you need to bring it down to the zone we want. Sometimes the grains themselves, which vary in acidity, will do that; other times we need to add salts or acids to the strike water to get the right balance.

IMO, the best way to learn this for most people is to have someone help you get the right water profile for a batch; then you can reverse-engineer it to find out why it works. Trying to do it from scratch *is* daunting. So get a little help, and it's not so bad.

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Here's the thing that started to make water make sense to me: certain beers are associated with certain regions of the world. Guiness? Very dark. Brewed in a place with very alkaline water and before people understood all this, the only kind of grains that worked well were dark malted grains--which are rather acidic. Those grains brought the pH down to where it needed to be.

Other regions? Pilsners are very light. Brewed with soft water. Very dark kilned grains would have been too acidic for that water, so light grains were needed so as not to bring down the pH too far.

 

[brewing_clown]

If you want to start from simple, which I would recommend, then mash and sparge with distilled or RO water. Assuming that you are brewing 5 gallons, add 2.5 grams each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride to your mash water only, before adding your crushed grain. That will get you in the realm of correct mash pH (ie your beer likely won't be astringent from too high mash pH).

The primer on water chemistry in the Brewing Science forum is a great resource.

Once you get comfortable with your all grain process, you will want to know more about the details and adjust your process and additions accordingly, based on your malt bill and beer style.

Bru'n water is really good, but maybe a little complicated if you're looking for simplicity at the outset.

I'm a fan of the water chemistry calculator on the Brewer's Friend web site.

I applaud you for looking into water before brewing AG. I didn't, and made some disappointing beer at the beginning. I'm still learning, but it's getting better thanks in part to some of the very knowledgable folks on the forums here.

Best of luck!

 

[mrbeachroach]

Thank you both for taking the time to explain this.

In one way this slowing down process and evaluating how I'm going to do this is and has been very good for me. I've been saving money for a brew pot and a little split on which one I'm going to get, but now the longer it takes me to wrap my mind around this other information just means I can add more money to my fund before purchase.

Because I am finding that it is not just buy a big pot and start brewing Ag, but there are many other factors to consider.

Pump or no pump, gravity fed or not, mash tuns, or brew in a bag, wort chiller's, play chillers, electric versus propane, to brew inside or outside, table and set up for the process, and the list keeps growing.

So for the meantime I am satisfied with sharpening my skills and knowledge while I continue to build my fund.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm helping someone else get started in all-grain, using brew-in-a-bag.

Know what I'm doing? I'm telling him exactly what his water additions should be--starting from pure RO water--so it's one less set of decisions he has to make. He can figure out later why they're right, and in fact, we stepped through the EZ Water spreadsheet so he knows why.

Those spreadsheets include a place for the grain, how much, and what color, as that influences acidity of the grain. Then it corrects for all of that, giving you a predicted pH, plus showing ratios of minerals.

 

[ajdelange]

It is, in fact, very simple to determine mash pH from what one knows about his brewing materials or, conversely, to set a desired mash pH using that same information. The kernel of the idea is that brewing reactions (and this is not limited to starch and protein lysis) are most effective if carried out at a particular pH. So what is pH? It is a measure of the activity of hydrogen ions. It is measured in terms of the number of molecules of water that are positively charged per liter of water. So all we need to do is get the number of positively charged water ions to a particular fraction. That is easy to do as each brewing item (malt, grain, acid, base, water etc ) comes to us at an intrinsic pH and all we are required to do is transition it to the target pH. There are simple formulas that allow us to figure out how many protons must be transferred to or from an item to get it from its intrinsic pH to the target pH, It's then a simple matter of (some trial and error involved for sure) arranging it that the pot contains things in quantities such that those giving up positive charges (acids, dark malts) do so in exactly the quantities needed by the positive charge absorbers (pale malts, water, water alkaliity, bicarbonate).

Now try to explain this to brewers! I've been at it since the Palmer book and very few, amateur or professional, have been able to grasp it. I really don't know why that is. The simplistic answer is that Americans are now innumerate but I think that is a gross over simplification. But when I talk about 'simple formulas' for charge changes I mean something like dQw(pH0 -> pH1) = L*(10^-pH1 - 10^-pH0) for water or dQm(pH) = m*(a0*(pH - pHdi) + a1*(pH - pHdi)^2 + a3*(pH-pHdi)^3) for malts. Now those are indeed simple equations but to some they may appear terrifying (???). This may be part of the problem. Another part of the problem may be that while the concept is exceeding simple by the time each of the dQs have been described with each of the pertaining little nuances pages and pages of material have been written. Another factor may be confusion in the way the important parameter alkalinity is defined and discussed. For example in this thread you will find a statement to the effect that high alkalinity water has high pH. That's not always true but such misstatements abound.

 

[Horseflesh]

OP, I recommend using Bru'n Water. The web site and the sheet are loaded with instructions and you can get help here too. It may look daunting at first but you will quickly get the hang of it.

You'll need a water report though, unless you use RO water. Maybe another member who lives in your area has already done one and will share the numbers.

Minding my minerals did make a big difference in my beer, so I encourage you to stick with it.