Mash PH issue, need some help....

[Tribe Fan]

I've never even thought of mash PH as an issue because it never was until we moved to Ohio well water. I had severe astringency problems. I had it tested and it's super hard, so I had a tank added to new RO system over a year ago. And problems went away, until I tried my first saison.

I used Brunwater, but it's on a mac so not sure it's calculating the grain bill correctly. If it is, I'm getting a 5.78 mash PH and that would explain a lot. In combination with that, I mashed in really high and it's quite possible there were pockets of water in the 170 range, and sparge water was hot as well. So I may have hit the trifecta on this one. I did a pale ale a couple of days later and it is superb out of the fermenter right now, so I'm thinking I may be getting away with lousy PH because of temp control.

Can someone check this grain bill for untreated RO strike water of 6 gallons and what the est PH is?
6.5# Munich
2.0# Munich 20L
1.0# Flaked Rye
1.0# Special B

Recommendations on Gypsum/CaCl treatments for 6 gallons? This is a pretty common grain bill for me. Thanks, this place is great, have learned a lot.

 

[Bassman2003]

I got 5.16 using 100% distilled dilution and zeroing out everything I could find. This might not be the same as your RO water but probably pretty close. This will be best to see what others come in with to get a group consensus.

 

[Tribe Fan]

PS - Just tasted a sample of a smash I did a week ago and it has that back of the throat astringency to it as well. Not nearly as pronounced as the saison and it will probably fade to nothing after conditioning. But it's definitely there and my FG is 1.020. That's 2 pale ale batches in a row 20+ which has never happened to me before.

 

[myndflyte]

How old are your RO filters? Because if they've been in use for a while, you probably aren't getting as "clean" water as you think.

 

[Tribe Fan]

How old are your RO filters? Because if they've been in use for a while, you probably aren't getting as "clean" water as you think.

1 year old and only used for drinking water.

 

[myndflyte]

1 year old and only used for drinking water.

They sort of getting up there and if you're using it brewing, they've probably gone through many gallons of water. I wonder if replacing them would help some of your astringency issues. We use our RO system only for drinking, I use bought water for brewing, and you could taste a little difference after I replaced the filters after about a year.

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

Carbon and sediment filters need changing every 6 months. The RO cartridges need changing yearly. Do you have a TDS meter? If so check your RO water with that and let us know what it is.

 

[mpmccann]

Do you have a water report of the water you are using? Are you treating the water with any salts or acid, and do you have a pH meter? Sorry for all of the questions but I had to use all of these things to get my pale colored beers to come out right. I had no issues with darker beers and found that my water was not suited for lighter beers. I also had to use a carbon filter to elevate chlorine from my tap water too. The trick is to run it at a trickle which can take some time to gather a large quantity. I usually do this the night before brew day. These are the things that worked for me, good luck in your quest.

 

[Tribe Fan]

Carbon and sediment filters need changing every 6 months. The RO cartridges need changing yearly. Do you have a TDS meter? If so check your RO water with that and let us know what it is.

Had the water tested pre filter straight from the well and it's really hard. Haven't tested the water since the filter and just started having this issue again.

Carbon and sediment filter need to be changed annually so I just ordered them. RO membrane every 3 years.

Don't have a PH meter and spending the money on one now isn't in the cards. Although I'm going to take a pre and post change water sample up to my LHBS guy and I'm sure he'll test it when I make my next grain order.

The smash is entirely drinkable. I cold crashed a sample and it was fine. I ran it past the wife and she said the same thing, she could taste it warm but the cold sample it was gone.

Saison's a different story. It's not drinkable as it stands today. I'll bottle some up and let it sit.

 

[mabrungard]

Anyone relying on a RO machine for their water should have a TDS meter in their possesion so that they can verify that the product water has low TDS content. Relying on a filter and membrane replacement schedule is not a wise choice. The TDS meter will tell you when the water quality is failing.

 

[brew703]

Anyone relying on a RO machine for their water should have a TDS meter in their possesion so that they can verify that the product water has low TDS content. Relying on a filter and membrane replacement schedule is not a wise choice. The TDS meter will tell you when the water quality is failing.

What is an acceptable TDS reading? Last year when I installed my RO system, I believe TDS was reading 12 or something close to that. I've checked it a few times and it's always around 12 or 13. I'll have to check it again this week.

 

[mabrungard]

RO removes 96 to 99 percent of the ionic content in water, depending on the ion species. The species most likely to make it through the membrane in higher percentage are the single valent ions such as sodium and chloride. So if your source water has high sodium and/or chloride, then the removal of those ions would be a little less complete.

A good way to assess if your RO machine is performing well, is to check the TDS of the raw water and assume a value of about 2 percent of that TDS is what a good performing RO machine would provide. If the TDS of the RO exceeds about 4 percent of the raw water TDS value, then its possible that the membrane is starting to fail. I wouldn't contemplate changing the RO membrane until the TDS value was greater than 5 percent.

 

[Yooper]

What I have to check my RO water is an aquarium gH/kH hardness kit. I think it was about $6, and you use drops in your water to check the hardness. My kH has been at <17ppm since I got my RO setup, and my understanding is that if the alkalinity is low, I didn't need to have a TDS meter.

 

[Tribe Fan]

RO removes 96 to 99 percent of the ionic content in water, depending on the ion species. The species most likely to make it through the membrane in higher percentage are the single valent ions such as sodium and chloride. So if your source water has high sodium and/or chloride, then the removal of those ions would be a little less complete.

A good way to assess if your RO machine is performing well, is to check the TDS of the raw water and assume a value of about 2 percent of that TDS is what a good performing RO machine would provide. If the TDS of the RO exceeds about 4 percent of the raw water TDS value, then its possible that the membrane is starting to fail. I wouldn't contemplate changing the RO membrane until the TDS value was greater than 5 percent.

Got it. Just ordered one. It was the PH meter I didn't want to spring for.

 

[mpmccann]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CCJZBXB/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I got something like this, not very much and helps tremendously in the brewery.
If you do decide to ever get one just make sure it says it will go down to hundredths "x.xx"

 

[Tribe Fan]

OK, so I broke down and bought some gear after reading up on brew science. Here is my Ward report on the unfiltered, pre-softened well water from a couple of years ago:

I took another sample unfiltered, pre-softened. I get 355 ppm on a TDS meter and 6.9ph with a twice calibrated meter.

I took a sample post filtered, still with my old filters because Amazon hasn't come through yet, and I get 15 ppm and 5.9 ph.

So the filter is working and this is really acidic water?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ignore the water pH; it means nothing.

My kH has been at <17ppm since I got my RO setup, and my understanding is that if the alkalinity is low, I didn't need to have a TDS meter.

I was hoping someone could confirm or deny this. My gut says that TDS is a better metric.

 

[Tribe Fan]

So for the record , I bottled up 12 pints of this saison and pitched the rest. I cracked one open after cold crashing it yesterday. The astringency has dissipated quite a bit, but the bitter finish seemingly on the top of the pallette and sides is really pronounced, and I had wifey verify my findings.

I've eliminated water and mash ph as a problem with this one. RO even at 96% is not a problem and MME says the batch should come in at 5.38

That leaves sparging and recipe design as my primary culprits.

I sparged with boiled water, that in retrospect was my softened uber hard well water. I'm sure I extracted tannins doing that and added it back to the wort as the boil was coming up. Enzymes may or may not have been denatured yet.

The other problem is using munich and special B mashed at a high temp with these diastatic yeast beasts, 3711. I like malty profiles, and this very much tastes like a malty beer with the sweetness completely stripped out. What's left is a starchy, malty then roasty almost burnt taste.

I do like the lemony aftertaste from this yeast, which is why I went with it in the first place.

So I brewed up a new batch with Vienna, oats, rice and the same williamette hop bill. It is in day 3 of fermentation. I mashed low 152, I measured mash pH at 5.2, and started it in a swamp cooler with ice and let it come up to cellar temps of 68F. Today is goes out to the garage where the temp will be in the high 70's all week. These yeasts are crazy. 12 hours in full krausen with the wort moving around like your shaking it.

 

[mabrungard]

My gut says that TDS is a better metric.

If you know your typical water quality and its variation, then yes, a TDS meter will be more useful than a pH meter reading on the water. However, TDS results will only provide you with fuzzy, qualitative results at best. Simple aquarium hobbyist tests for calcium and alkalinity would be more definitive and quantitative. However, those tests aren't nearly as speedy as dipping the TDS meter in the water. So a TDS meter could be a really quick check for some variable water supplies.

 

[Drewed]

Just as a thought, you should run your RO filter on softened water. Ca and Mg are the number one killers of RO membranes behind chlorine. Ideal setup would be : Whole house sediment filter, softener / carbon filter ( location depends on the amount of hardness and coloring in the water.) and then the RO filter.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Ignore the water pH; it means nothing.


I was hoping someone could confirm or deny this. My gut says that TDS is a better metric.

To me that high of a TDS reading equals ‘dirty’ water. Why? I’m fortunate enough to have post RO filter membrane readings of about 15.

 

[Tribe Fan]

To me that high of a TDS reading equals ‘dirty’ water. Why? I’m fortunate enough to have post RO filter membrane readings of about 15.

Yeah, direct from the well is 355.

Post RO filter it's 15, before changing the sediment and carbon filters.

RO water is fine. I've got two batches in the fermenters right now with RO water that I treated with CaCL and gypsum, one mash was 5.2 and the other was 5.4. So far so good.