Mash PH and water profile question

[Markdark60]

Hi All,

I am new to all grain and have been trying to use Brewers Friend water calculator. I know I probably shouldn't be messing with my water at this point but please humor me. The main reason I am even messing with it is because my hoppy beers have all been kind of bland in the flavor department and I think it might have to do with my PH and relatively low mineral water that is higher in chloride than sulfates. I hear people talk about hops "poping" from the additon of salts like gypsum and think I may benefit from this. The first all grain beer I made was a stout with irish yeast and irish whiskey soaked french oak chips that came out amazing. The second beer I made was a single hop IPA that did not come out so great which may in part be due to a more than necessary complex malt bill and only adding hops for a hop stand and a small portion for bittering at 60. Either way all the IPA's I have made have been lacking in that clean in your face flavor aspect I enjoy in commercial IPA's.

My first question is real basic and I just want to double check that a carbon filter sink attachment doesn't filter out minerals just chlorine, is that correct?

My second question is a bit harder to explain but basically is about the accuracy of these water calculators and the mash PH they list. For example my next beer is a rye pale ale and it is pretty basic with just 2-row and rye malt. It is about 4.7 SRM according to beersmith. The water calculator says my mash PH will be 5.78 without any salt or acid additions. My question is basically is this accurate or is it actually lower due to the difference in room temp readings vs mash temp readings. On the calculator it says "* mash prediction is for mash sample cooled to 25 C / 77 F" does this mean my mash PH is 5.78 or actually 5.48 due to the difference in temps? If it is 5.48 then i would need to add a very slight amount of acid to get it to maybe 5.3 or so vs. needing to add more to get it down from 5.78 to 5.3 instead. Hopefully this makes sense.

My third question is about my water profile. I know I should get an actual water report done but I found listings for my areas water profile from several sources that are all fairly close, so until I can get that done I am just wondering if what I am aiming for would be sufficient for a rye pale ale or if I am going overboard. They list it as Ca - 27 ppm, Mg - 8 ppm, Na - 15 ppm, Cl - 39 ppm, SO4 -2 - 6 ppm(which EZ water calc says is actually 3x that amount as just SO4) so actually 18 ppm, CaCO3 - 65 ppm, and a PH of 8. I added 5.4g Gypsum and .9g Calcium Chloride to the calculator and end up with Ca - 67.9, Cl - 50.8, and SO4 - 100. I want the hops to pop but I also want to keep additions restrained and allow the rye to show through as well so I was going for a 1:2 ratio for the chloride to sulfates. Am I going too high on any of these? I have seen all sorts of recommendations and it hasn't really gotten any clearer. I know the calcium is important for the mash conversion and yeast health, and I know the chloride and sulfate ratio is mainly for malt vs hop. I know this is probably super over simplified but I really just want to get that clean evident hop flavor. I guess another example is that I can actually discern to a slight extent certain hops that are in commercial beers due to flavor differences but all the hoppy beers I've made have been kind of muddled and not really recognizable. I am sure that some part of this has to do with the recipes but I can't help but think there is more to it than that as some have been pretty simple recipes.

I appreciate any help with this, and hope it makes sense.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[VolDoc]

It sounds like you are already well on your way with figuring out how to adjust the water profile. Here is my take...

The water filter depends on the type you have. Is it a Berkey filter? Or a basic Brita filter? The website from whatever filter you have will guide you on what it specifically filters. Most commercial, run-of-the-mill filters will take out chlorine, lead, and mercury. The minerals you are referring to usually are too small to be filtered by these type of filters. You would need something like a reverse osmosis filter system to remove all the ions and salts.

The mash pH will be lowered once you add your grains. Darker, more acidic malts will lower the pH even more. Get yourself some pH test strips off of amazon that read pH 1-14. This will give you an accurate measurement of your mash pH. EZ water is the same one I use and so far it has been pretty spot on. Matter of fact, I brewed today and it was dead accurate. I usually add about a teaspoon each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride based on my water profile and the mash pH ends up around 5.4 - 5.5. I haven't yet started adding lactic acid to lower it even more. Most will tell you that a mash pH of 5.78 is a little high if you really care about your water. Most would say between 5.2 and 5.6 is ideal.

As far as the last thought, I'm not a hop-head in the slightest so I can't comment much on that, but you seem to already know about the chloride to sulfate ratio. EZ water shows that below 0.77 ratio produces more bitterness, so that may be something you can experiment with to see if the hops come out for you.

Hope this helps. I am in no way as experienced as some on this board but I have tried to give you the information I have learned from others. Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

The whole idea of a ratio of chloride to sulfate is bogus, so forget that you ever heard that phrase. For more info on why: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109

Without knowing your water, it's hard to guess at additions or a likely mash pH. But mash pH is crucial to making the best beer you can. The flavor additions are just that- for flavor. I liken the salts you add for flavor to spices in cooking. Sometimes a little pepper is needed, sometimes not. That's why gypsum does- it enhances the perception of dryness, and that is often desirable in an IPA or other hoppy beers. Chloride brings a "fullness" or roundness of flavor to a beer.

Mash pH is taken at room temperature, and that is what those spreadsheets are indicating. A mash pH of 5.4 is a good place for an IPA.

 

[McKnuckle]

The Brewer's Friend calculator is a trusted friend in my brewery. Whether or not its predictions are spot on when matched to an actual reading in the mash, I have learned empirically that a predicted range of 5.4-5.5 for pale-to-dark beers brings me good results in both efficiency and quality.

For adjusting nuances (I don't go quite as far as to call it "flavor"), SO4 enhances dryness and Cl enhances roundness. Forget "hoppy" and "malty" - those are, in my opinion, manifestations of the more general terms dry and round. But I guess it's just semantics. Less is more, though. You can easily go overboard on these, although some people apparently like that (i.e. 300 ppm SO4 in IPAs - very harsh to me).

My guidelines: I use distilled water. I seek to hit 40-50 ppm Ca in the mash using gypsum and CaCl in small amounts. For roundness, I'll bump up Cl to 90 ppm max. For dryness, I'll bump up SO4 to 150 max. I don't go higher, and usually I don't go that high at all. I make many beers with 40-70 ppm of those two minerals. The ratio is less important than the individual amounts. If I need to lower pH and I've somehow already maxed out my salts, I'll use lactic acid.

For dark beers that need the pH raised, I use baking soda but never so much that it yields more than 30 ppm of Na. This is almost never a problem. For such beers, adding salts lowers an already low pH, so I'll do it minimally - usually just enough to get Ca to 40 ppm and with a Cl bias over SO4.

You simply have to try these things and experience it for yourself. There are some rules in water adjustment, but there are a lot of "what works for me" elements as well.

 

[jmitchell3]

The Brewer's Friend calculator is a trusted friend in my brewery. Whether or not its predictions are spot on when matched to an actual reading in the mash, I have learned empirically that a predicted range of 5.4-5.5 for pale-to-dark beers brings me good results in both efficiency and quality.

For adjusting nuances (I don't go quite as far as to call it "flavor"), SO4 enhances dryness and Cl enhances roundness. Forget "hoppy" and "malty" - those are, in my opinion, manifestations of the more general terms dry and round. But I guess it's just semantics. Less is more, though. You can easily go overboard on these, although some people apparently like that (i.e. 300 ppm SO4 in IPAs - very harsh to me).

My guidelines: I use distilled water. I seek to hit 40-50 ppm Ca in the mash using gypsum and CaCl in small amounts. For roundness, I'll bump up Cl to 90 ppm max. For dryness, I'll bump up SO4 to 150 max. I don't go higher, and usually I don't go that high at all. I make many beers with 40-70 ppm of those two minerals. The ratio is less important than the individual amounts. If I need to lower pH and I've somehow already maxed out my salts, I'll use lactic acid.

For dark beers that need the pH raised, I use baking soda but never so much that it yields more than 30 ppm of Na. This is almost never a problem. For such beers, adding salts lowers an already low pH, so I'll do it minimally - usually just enough to get Ca to 40 ppm and with a Cl bias over SO4.

You simply have to try these things and experience it for yourself. There are some rules in water adjustment, but there are a lot of "what works for me" elements as well.

Not an expert, but have a little experience of my own...

Mcknuckle has good advice there. As a general rule with a room temp sample, ph can be anywhere from 5.2 all the way up to 5.8 and youll get good results. The 5.2-5.4 numbers people throw around are generally at mash temps, while the range quoted 5.4-5.6 is generally at room temp. That being said, a ph on the low end for style will contribute more flavor stability and a slightly lower conversion efficiency in the mash. I tend to prefer the lower end of any ph range for a given style because i think the beer ends up tasting better. I shoot for a room temp ph for lighter beers at 5.2-5.3 and for darker beers around 5.4-5.5.

I would not hesitate to recommend a digital ph meter if you are interested in nailing your water chemistry. Milwaukee and hanna both make ~$100 units that have .01 resolution and replaceable probes. A great investment for the all grain brewer!

 

[splyn]

i have recently started paying attention to mash Ph and water. I got my water report and found my Ph was a bit high for an ideal mash. I have been using acidulated malt in my last two brews (Irish Red and IPA) to correct the Ph. so far, so good.

 

[Markdark60]

Wow! That was quick. Thanks everyone!

That post helped a lot Yooper =)

I think I may just add a tsp of gypsum and see how it goes because my stout was rounder than I had expected which turned out to be really good but not so much in the IPA. I've been mashing at 151-152 degrees so I was wondering why they were coming out that way.

I think my confusion about the PH listed was partly due to my LHBS, one of the employees there looked at a spreadsheet i had printed out and showed him from EZwater and had said that the PH listed wasn't accurate because of the temp difference but it sounds like I definitely want to get my PH down since this rye pale ale is very light and 5.78 is pretty high, I will aim for 5.3-5.4.

I plugged my stout in to the calculator and it came out to a 5.5 mash PH which makes sense why it came out so good as well. I mean I'm talking light and day differences in the two beers, I would order the stout at a bar and be happy and the IPA I definitely wouldn't lol.

I need to buy a PH meter but the price is why I havent done it yet. Hopefully I can get one by my next beer.

Again, thank you everyone this really helped clear this up for me.

 

[ajdelange]

The main reason I am even messing with it is because my hoppy beers have all been kind of bland in the flavor department and I think it might have to do with my PH and relatively low mineral water that is higher in chloride than sulfates. I hear people talk about hops "poping" from the additon of salts like gypsum and think I may benefit from this.

Yes, you may. Water is a factor in beer flavor via the stylistic (flavor) ions sulfate and chloride and an important factor through its influence on mash pH. As Yooper has pointed out the stylistic ions are used to trim the flavor of the beer but this assumes that the mash pH has been properly controlled. A beer mashed at pH 5.7 or higher is going to be dull in flavor no matter how much sulfate or chloride you dose it with. A beer made with pH between 5.4 and 5.6 is going to be good (if you do everything else right) and below 5.4, according to Kunze who seems to have thought there was no lower limit, even better. These are room temperature readings.

Either way all the IPA's I have made have been lacking in that clean in your face flavor aspect I enjoy in commercial IPA's.

I would look to other parts of the process - the hop variety, the scheduling, the amounts. Also be aware that lots of commercial operations are buying their hops, or parts of them in a bottle i.e. as extracxts, preisomerized hops etc or adding the oils to finished beer. These products are available on a limited basis to home brewers.

My first question is real basic and I just want to double check that a carbon filter sink attachment doesn't filter out minerals just chlorine, is that correct?

No, it won't but keep an eye on chlorine break through as a filter as small as the ones that attach to sink faucets won't have much capacity. See the Campden tablet sticky for how to manage chlorine/chloramine.

My second question is a bit harder to explain but basically is about the accuracy of these water calculators and the mash PH they list. For example my next beer is a rye pale ale and it is pretty basic with just 2-row and rye malt. It is about 4.7 SRM according to beersmith. The water calculator says my mash PH will be 5.78 without any salt or acid additions. My question is basically is this accurate or is it actually lower due to the difference in room temp readings vs mash temp readings.

The calculators give mash pH estimates at room temperature. Are they accurate? Depends on what you mean by accurate. In order to be highly accurate a calculator has to know just how many protons are required to shift the pH of a pound of base malt from the malt's intrinsic (DI water mash pH) to a (lower) mash pH, how many protons are given up by a pound of dark malt in shifting from its intrinsic pH to a higher mash pH, how may protons are needed to get the pH of the brewing water to the mash pH and so on and find the pH that causes the sum of those proton deficits and surfeits to be 0. The authors of some of these calculators thoroughly understand the principles and their calculations are robust. Others don't and do things sort of right but none of them has the proton deficit data of the actual malts you are using when you brew. The properties of 3 L pale ale malts are not all the same. I've measured enough to know that. Yet people claim Bru Maven is always exactly on! Were it true it would be very hard to explain. Of course the 'I don't have a pH meter but it is always right on for me' posts are easily dismissed. But the one's that used a pH meter are puzzling. I suspect that they may, given a Bru Maven prediction of 5.41 stick their meter into a cooled sample of wort and watch the numbers roll until they hit 5.41, pull the meter out and declare 'right on' at that point but I am mystified. I can't get better than about 0.02 accuracy on a test mash in the lab made with the malts I just measured (because you can't really measure pH to much better accuracy than that even using the elaborate procedure I use). Other possiblilities may be that there are platform wars between the Bru Maven and GuruBrew guys e.g. "Don't use Bru Maven but GuruBrew is always right on for me."

On the calculator it says "* mash prediction is for mash sample cooled to 25 C / 77 F" does this mean my mash PH is 5.78 or actually 5.48 due to the difference in temps? If it is 5.48 then i would need to add a very slight amount of acid to get it to maybe 5.3 or so vs. needing to add more to get it down from 5.78 to 5.3 instead. Hopefully this makes sense.

That would be the estimate at room temperature. Your alkalinity would have to have appreciable alkalinity to get a mash pH estimate that high.

If it seems from the earlier paragraph that I am against the use of mash pH prediction software I am not. Quite the contrary. I have published in MBAA TQ on how to make mash pH estimates, presented at conferences on it and am still working on trying to figure out how to improve it and to get maltsters to include the requisite data in their COAs or better yet printed on the sack, but it will always have limitations. It also has value. In your particular case the estimate of 5.78 is a tipoff that you have water alkalinity to deal with.

My third question is about my water profile. I know I should get an actual water report done but I found listings for my areas water profile from several sources that are all fairly close, so until I can get that done I am just wondering if what I am aiming for would be sufficient for a rye pale ale or if I am going overboard. They list it as Ca - 27 ppm, Mg - 8 ppm, Na - 15 ppm, Cl - 39 ppm, SO4 -2 - 6 ppm(which EZ water calc says is actually 3x that amount as just SO4) so actually 18 ppm, CaCO3 - 65 ppm, and a PH of 8.?

Ward Labs is an firm that supports agriculture and farmers want to know how much nitogen, how much sulfur... is being applied to their land (by application of fertilizer but also by irrigation) so they report SO4 - S. The -S means "as Sulfur". Most labs and water authorities report just SO4. If the phrase "as sulfur" or the S in SO4-S is missing, do not multiply by 3.

Looking at the numbers you have you alkalinity is about 75 ppm as CaCO3 (1.5 mVal).

I added 5.4g Gypsum and .9g Calcium Chloride to the calculator and end up with Ca - 67.9, Cl - 50.8, and SO4 - 100. I want the hops to pop but I also want to keep additions restrained and allow the rye to show through as well so I was going for a 1:2 ratio for the chloride to sulfates. Am I going too high on any of these? I have seen all sorts of recommendations and it hasn't really gotten any clearer.

That's not a bad place to start but you need to do something about that alkalinity or your beer will be dull.

I know the calcium is important for the mash conversion and yeast health,

It's not that critical but unless you want really soft water beer it doesn't hurt to have a healthy bit of Ca.

and I know the chloride and sulfate ratio is mainly for malt vs hop. I know this is probably super over simplified but I really just want to get that clean evident hop flavor.

You've already been advised to avoid the chloride/sulfate ratio or, at least, not to attach inordinate significance to it (see the Sticky on that subject). What I recommend you do is brew a beer with pretty low sulfate and pretty low chloride and then dose some of the beer as you are drinking it with solutions of those salts to give you an idea as to whether it will be improved or detrimented by being brewed with more of either or both of them. You can get a rough idea as to what these ions do with a reasonably hopped commercial beer.

I guess another example is that I can actually discern to a slight extent certain hops that are in commercial beers due to flavor differences but all the hoppy beers I've made have been kind of muddled and not really recognizable

Keeping in mind the earlier comment that the beers you like may have been dosed with hop essential oils and/or extracts also be aware that muddled flavors is a symptom of high mash/kettle pH.


As to a pH meter: yes, absolutely. A modern brewer needs one as much as he needs a thermometer. The Hach Pro+ pH seems to have emerged as the best buy in the $100 range. Lots of people here (and a couple of pro's I know) use that meter.

 

[Markdark60]

So if it lists SO4 -2 instead of SO4 - S I don't multiply by 3? Meaning my sulfates are actually 6? I guess I am kind of confused when it comes to Alkalinity listed in the report, if I add lactic acid to lower the mash PH is that lowering the listed Alkalinity or is that separate from the mash PH adjustments?
I guess I phrased that question wrong I know their calculations are accurate I just wasn't sure if I was supposed to be following room temp readings or adjusting down from them if that makes sense.

 

[McKnuckle]

The alkalinity figure from your report is used to establish the baseline of your water so the calculators can estimate mash pH. You don't care at all about how the alkalinity value moves from adjustments; you only care about the resulting estimated mash pH.

And all of the figures thrown around in both discussion and in the software are assumed to be at room temp for the sake of consistency.

 

[ajdelange]

So if it lists SO4 -2 instead of SO4 - S I don't multiply by 3? Meaning my sulfates are actually 6?

Yes. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if your data doesn't come from Ward Labs, don't multiply by 3 unless you see "as Sulfur" spelled out or the -S symbol.

I guess I am kind of confused when it comes to Alkalinity listed in the report, if I add lactic acid to lower the mash PH is that lowering the listed Alkalinity or is that separate from the mash PH adjustments?

Don't feel inadequate because you are confused by this. The alkalinity is the amount of acid required to reduce the pH of 1 L of your water to pH 4.5 (assuming your lab used the ISO procedure which most, but not Ward Labs, do). You water's alkalinity is about 1.5 mEq/L WRT pH 4.5. If you add 1 mEq of acid to a liter of your water its alkalinity would be reduced to 0.5 mEq/L WRT pH 4.5. But you don't want to add 1.5 mEq/L and have the pH 4.5, you want to add 0.9*1.5 = 1.35 mEq/L and have it go to pH 5.4.

Now in addition to the alkalinity of the water there is the alkalinity of the malt. You will need, in the majority of mashes, to add more acid to reduce the malts' pH to 5.4. Thus you will, in most cases be adding more than 1.35 mEq/L. This changes the pH of both malt and water and that is what you must do. It is lamentable that the spreadsheets and calculators in common use to not break these alkalinities out but to be fair it was only at the time of the writing of the Palmer book that it became clear that this is the best way to do it.

I guess I phrased that question wrong I know their calculations are accurate I just wasn't sure if I was supposed to be following room temp readings or adjusting down from them if that makes sense.

They actually aren't that accurate for reasons I won't repeat here as I just spelled them out in another current thread. But they are accurate enough to be useful indicators as to whether you will probably need to add acid or alkali in a typical brew. I think what is important for you to understand is that the numbers presented represent pH estimates at room temperature.

 

[Markdark60]

Ok cool, it's starting to get clearer now. http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/water-profiles/ This is where I found the water report, I used the first listing for Baltimore MD which says its ward labs but the consecutive listings for Baltimore do not state they are from Ward Labs and they are all about 6 ppm Sulfates. I know this isn't very accurate and I am going to get an actual water report and PH meter as soon as I have the cash to spare. I think either way a tsp or so of Gypsum will help the hoppy beers since the few all grain beers I've made have been fuller and not dry at all, but I think the mash PH is more important at this point either way. The stout that came out really good which shows at 5.5 which seems to be a good range for the dark roasted grains that brought it down that far. Thanks again. This info has really helped me out!