Mash Efficiency stunk again! What happened?!

[MotoGP1000]

hey brewers -

I’m having a little issue with my all grain set up where my efficiency absolutely stinks and I’m not sure what the deal is. Hoping for some pointers.

My fermentables were as follows:
15lbs Golden Promise
1.5lbs flaked wheat
1.5lbs flaked oats

Mashing for 60minutes @ 165 degrees

OG I’m caculating is around 1.089


This is my second time brewing this grain bill. The first time my OG came to 1.062 And I used a bag (for easy clean) for my mash tun.
2nd time was even worse. OG 1.056. AND I even added a half pound of lactose to my recipe at 10minutes.

So any pointers? I’m stumped why efficiency is so bad on this grain bill. I just brewed another all grain cream ale and had no issues hitting the expected OG

Tips would be appreciated!

 

[helterscelter]

60 minute mash at 165f seems suspect to me? typo? thats just shy of where I typically mash-out. if you really are mashing that high I would suspect that most of your conversion is into unfermentables and the lower temp enzymes aren't being allowed to do any real work.

also a question about your crush.. what does it look like? since you're BiaB you can likely go finer than typical.. but not having a fine enough crush can really hurt your mash conversion.

 

[MotoGP1000]

60 minute mash at 165f seems suspect to me? typo? thats just shy of where I typically mash-out. if you really are mashing that high I would suspect that most of your conversion is into unfermentables and the lower temp enzymes aren't being allowed to do any real work.

also a question about your crush.. what does it look like? since you're BiaB you can likely go finer than typical.. but not having a fine enough crush can really hurt your mash conversion.

Well my first go round I used a bag. This go round I just went loose in the mash tun but Also experienced worse efficiency. So you’re saying that 165 is too high and I should probably aim for lower for better efficiency? My crush IMO didnt look great but I don’t have real basis for comparison. This is only my 3rd all grain. Before i did partials. Perhaps these are just how my rookie mistakes are manifesting themselves...

 

[cloudybrewer]

Yes, 165F is too high. Aim for 152 as a beginner. Actually hitting 148F to 156F is acceptable as you learn your system and figure out how to make adjustments to dial it in.

 

[MotoGP1000]

Yes, 165F is too high. Aim for 152 as a beginner. Actually hitting 148F to 156F is acceptable as you learn your system and figure out how to make adjustments to dial it in.

Ok cool. I knew going 168 and over is a bad. Next time I’ll mash lower. Hope that will help.
Thanks for the tip!

 

[lumpher]

As your SG goes up, efficiency goes down, also, so that will cause a drop. The main problem, though, as they are saying, 165 will cause very low conversion. Not really sure about that recipe (not seeing the reason behind oats; i'd use maltodextrin for mouthfeel), but your problem is definitely the mash temp. For that bill, go for 150-152 mash, and mash out at 165-168, but stay below 170. 170 extracts tannins and other bitter nasties. You should see a HUGE jump in efficiency.

 

[helterscelter]

Well my first go round I used a bag. This go round I just went loose in the mash tun but Also experienced worse efficiency. So you’re saying that 165 is too high and I should probably aim for lower for better efficiency? My crush IMO didnt look great but I don’t have real basis for comparison. This is only my 3rd all grain. Before i did partials. Perhaps these are just how my rookie mistakes are manifesting themselves...

bag vs not (false bottom?) really doesn't matter that much -- they are more about convenience and equipment capability than anything..

grain crush, temp, and sparge technique make the biggest immediate difference to mash efficiency (imho), once you get those dialed in, mash ph, water treatment, etc make up the rest.

there is lots of threads that discuss this stuff, so I'm gonna over simplify this, but in general.. for a basic single infuction mash, you'll want to mash between 149f and 156f -- depending on if you want a dry (mash cooler) or more malty (mash warmer) body to your beer. try to keep the temp stable at your chosen temp.. some temp loss is to be expected.. it won't hurt anything. just get it close enough.

at the end of the mash, some folks do a mash-out infusion -- raising the mash temperature up to 168f(ish) by adding boiling/hot sparge water and holding for approx 15 minutes. some folks skip this all together, especially if they are batch sparging or doing BiaB, since the sparge time is relatively short, they can start the boil and denature the enzymes relatively fast.. (as far as I understand it, the mash-out step is really only necessary for folks who fly-sparge, since it takes a long time to do)

your crush should break every kernel of your malt, without grinding it to flour or completely destroying the husk.. mine typically looks like the pic I've attached. I could probably go a little finer, but this crush works well for me/my system.. you'll likely have to adjust to see what works with your setup and with your wanted mash efficiency.

sparging, depends on your equipment. given you have a bag/false bottom, I assume you're going to want to do a basic BiaB sparge, or a batch sparge.. both work equally well imo.. just make sure you fully drain your grain.. mix your sparge water thoroughly and rinse/drain completely. try not to leave any liquid in the mash, as that will lower your efficiency -- go slow.. there is no reason to rush it.

 

[whiskeyjack]

Most typical mash's are in the 150-154 range, 165 is mashout temp. If I'm shooting for 152, and it hits any number in the 150-154 range I leave it alone and call it good enough. There are a few beers that benefit from lower and higher mash temps. Really low abv beers in the 3-4% range benefit from 156-158 temps, for the extra body. 148 is for beers you really want to dry out.

What size batch is that ? If thats a 5G batch, thats a decent sized grain bill. When you go bigger your efficiency usually takes a hit. Until you get your system dialed in, it may be a good idea to keep your grain bills to a normal size and not do huge beers. Just until you get to know your setup.

Also how big of a mash tun are you using? I have efficiency issues when I mash in my smaller cooler if I max it out. I think it has to do with the ability to get a good stir, when its full you can't really do that. That is my theory any ways. I've found I need about a 8-10 gallon cooler for most of my mash's, I only have a 5 so when it fills it to the top I know I will have efficiency issues

 

[MotoGP1000]

Sounds like I definitely over temp’d I’m just gonna take lumps and hope my Beer doesn’t suck when it’s done lol. I’m using a 10gal tun so no issues there’s.

 

[helterscelter]

Sounds like I definitely over temp’d I’m just gonna take lumps and hope my Beer doesn’t suck when it’s done lol. I’m using a 10gal tun so no issues there’s.

Worst case it's gonna be sweet. But it'll still be beer..

 

[MotoGP1000]

Worst case it's gonna be sweet. But it'll still be beer..

Sweet isn’t necessarily bad I suppose. You’re right though. I probably drank worse in college

 

[Jako]

hey brewers -

I’m having a little issue with my all grain set up where my efficiency absolutely stinks and I’m not sure what the deal is. Hoping for some pointers.

My fermentables were as follows:
15lbs Golden Promise
1.5lbs flaked wheat
1.5lbs flaked oats

Mashing for 60minutes @ 165 degrees

OG I’m caculating is around 1.089


This is my second time brewing this grain bill. The first time my OG came to 1.062 And I used a bag (for easy clean) for my mash tun.
2nd time was even worse. OG 1.056. AND I even added a half pound of lactose to my recipe at 10minutes.

So any pointers? I’m stumped why efficiency is so bad on this grain bill. I just brewed another all grain cream ale and had no issues hitting the expected OG

Tips would be appreciated!

i am also dealing with the same issue. no help but tuned in.

 

[Saboral]

148 for highly fermentable beers
ranging to
154 for less fermentable meaning bigger body, sweeter, maltier

Higher temperatures are ideal for Alpha-Amylase, lower temperatures for Beta-Amylase. All of this then ties back to the diastatic power of your malts. Above 168 degrees Fahrenheit you will denature the enzymes.

 

[helterscelter]

i am also dealing with the same issue. no help but tuned in.

Details?

 

[MotoGP1000]

148 for highly fermentable beers
ranging to
154 for less fermentable meaning bigger body, sweeter, maltier

Higher temperatures are ideal for Alpha-Amylase, lower temperatures for Beta-Amylase. All of this then ties back to the diastatic power of your malts. Above 168 degrees Fahrenheit you will denature the enzymes.

There’s some terms here I’m gonna have to look up. So what I’ve gathered from most on the thread is I should shoot for 154ish generally speaking. But the lower the the temp the drier the beer.
I don’t really understand the “highly fermentable beer” comment though. Like bigger the grain bill the higher ferment?

 

[Saboral]

There’s some terms here I’m gonna have to look up. So what I’ve gathered from most on the thread is I should shoot for 154ish generally speaking. But the lower the the temp the drier the beer.
I don’t really understand the “highly fermentable beer” comment though. Like bigger the grain bill the higher ferment?

So if you click some of the terms I threw out they should link to their respective Wikipedia pages.

Fermentability and “dryness” are basically the same thing. More fermentable generally means drier, less fermentable means maltier, fuller, and sweeter by virtue of less sugar and more ethanol.

 

[Jako]

Details?

i don't want to take over but it might help.

i will use my DIPA as an example. 16 pounds of grain and i only hit 1060 i think it was just shy of 1060.

mash temp temp was around 155-153.
i used a Camden tablet for my water and that was it local tap water. the water is super hard.

1 hour mash i mixed the mash twice temp was stable.

i had way to much sparge water. i had almost 7 gallons! i tried to boil out as much as possible the OG was 1043 or to start with.

but even if i hit my numbers right with water etc i am short. my next batch i used lactic acid and i still missed my numbers by 10 points.

 

[doug293cz]

i don't want to take over but it might help.

i will use my DIPA as an example. 16 pounds of grain and i only hit 1060 i think it was just shy of 1060.

mash temp temp was around 155-153.
i used a Camden tablet for my water and that was it local tap water. the water is super hard.

1 hour mash i mixed the mash twice temp was stable.

i had way to much sparge water. i had almost 7 gallons! i tried to boil out as much as possible the OG was 1043 or to start with.

but even if i hit my numbers right with water etc i am short. my next batch i used lactic acid and i still missed my numbers by 10 points.

SG readings by themselves won't help us diagnose efficiency problems. We also need information on volumes. Here is all the data that you should provide if you want someone to help you diagnose your problem in detail (rather than just generalities.)

• Grain bill weight (full recipe is better, but not critical)
• Strike volume
• SG of wort in the mash just prior to run-off or adding any additional water
• Sparge process (none, batch, fly.) If batch then include number of sparges
• Pre-boil SG and volume (after extremely thorough mixing of wort)
• Post-Boil SG (ie OG) and volume

All gravity readings should be taken at close to the calibration temp of the hydrometer (or at least corrected to the calibration temp, but note that high temp hydro readings my not correct accurately.) The temperature at which each volume was measured should also be noted, so the volumes can be corrected for thermal expansion. The more accurate the volume measurements, the more accurate the efficiency estimates will be.

Brew on

 

[Jako]

SG readings by themselves won't help us diagnose efficiency problems. We also need information on volumes. Here is all the data that you should provide if you want someone to help you diagnose your problem in detail (rather than just generalities.)

• Grain bill weight (full recipe is better, but not critical)
• Strike volume
• SG of wort in the mash just prior to run-off or adding any additional water
• Sparge process (none, batch, fly.) If batch then include number of sparges
• Pre-boil SG and volume (after extremely thorough mixing of wort)
• Post-Boil SG (ie OG) and volume

All gravity readings should be taken at close to the calibration temp of the hydrometer (or at least corrected to the calibration temp, but note that high temp hydro readings my not correct accurately.) The temperature at which each volume was measured should also be noted, so the volumes can be corrected for thermal expansion. The more accurate the volume measurements, the more accurate the efficiency estimates will be.

Brew on

Give me a bit and I will provide as much as I can. *Thinks for a second* darn I should take bett notes.

 

[MotoGP1000]

i don't want to take over but it might help.

i will use my DIPA as an example. 16 pounds of grain and i only hit 1060 i think it was just shy of 1060.

mash temp temp was around 155-153.
i used a Camden tablet for my water and that was it local tap water. the water is super hard.

1 hour mash i mixed the mash twice temp was stable.

i had way to much sparge water. i had almost 7 gallons! i tried to boil out as much as possible the OG was 1043 or to start with.

but even if i hit my numbers right with water etc i am short. my next batch i used lactic acid and i still missed my numbers by 10 points.

For my grain bill my sparge water calculated around 10 gallons. Idk if 7 gal for your was too much. You should be getting some absorption

 

[SEndorf]

60 minute mash at 165f seems suspect to me? typo? thats just shy of where I typically mash-out. if you really are mashing that high I would suspect that most of your conversion is into unfermentables and the lower temp enzymes aren't being allowed to do any real work.

This......