Maris Otter/Fuggles + candi?

[troy2000]

I've been surfing in two directions this morning: SMaSHes and honey ales. So I sort of split the difference: I decided to make a SMaSH and add honey. Then I started looking at the price of honey, and reading a few comments that honey doesn't really add much character anyway. So I'm thinking about using homemade amber or dark candi syrup instead....

My tentative recipe:

10 lb Maris Otter
1 lb candi syrup added to boil
1 oz Fuggles, 60 minute boil
1 oz Fuggles, 10 minute boil
Safale s-04 yeast

1 hour mash @ 150-152*
Ferment @ 65*

Does that sound reasonable to those of you with a little more experience than I have? I'm going for an ABV a little stronger than the typical English ale, but I still want it to be somewhat malty.

add: one more question. Would I be better off adding the candi at high krausen?

 

[hannibalmdq]

Funny, I just bought the ingredients for a very similar brew to your original premise.

2.75 gallons batch.

91% Golden Promise
5% Crystal 80L
4% Honey Malt

Mash at 150ish for 60 minutes

1.5 oz Fuggles FWH
.5 oz Hopstand @ 170 degree for 30 minutes

Ferment with Notty @ 60

Really the only thing the candi syrup is going to do is dry out your beer and add some color. If you want to do a smash and really appreciate Maris Otter, I'd just stick with Maris Otter.

Regardless, it sounds like a lovely brew whatever you decide. I think Marris Otter stands up very well in a smash brew.

Also, I'd just add the candi when you start the boil. I've added extra sugar at various times during the process and never really seen the stalling that everyone is afraid of. You're only using 10 percent so I really would worry about it. There are no aromatics to worry about driving off in the boil and the yeast should be fine munching through the maltose and the invert sugar.

 

[dyqik]

Adding caramel, sugar or invert syrup is pretty standard for English bitters to dry them out a bit and to give color in the case of caramel (or darker syrups).

You might be a little bit light on hops to get to an ESB level of bitterness, but ESBs are still pretty much malt forward. You could sub in some Challenger or Target for the bittering Fuggles if you wanted to head in that direction (and use the remaining Fuggles as whirlpool or dry hop). Or you could go for the full maltiness pale mild type ale as is. Getting it to dry out would keep it drinkable, and you'll get plenty of maltiness from the MO.

 

[DSmith]

The original poster's beer sounds a lot like the Town Hall 1800 IPA kit by Northern Brewer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[troy2000]

The original poster's beer sounds a lot like the Town Hall 1800 IPA kit by Northern Brewer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

But it's nowhere near as hoppy, according to what I've read. The 1800 is an IPA, and I'm going for something more like a pale mild. In fact, I may have backed off a little too much on the hops. But I think I'll go with the plan anyway; I can always add more next time.

One of the reasons (or excuses ) for doing a SMaSH is that it's a learning experience...

 

[adam01]

1oz fuggles at 15 mins seems high.

The recipe reminds me of theakstons old peculiar... But it probably reminds people of
many british bitters...

 

[DSmith]

But it's nowhere near as hoppy, according to what I've read. The 1800 is an IPA, and I'm going for something more like a pale mild. In fact, I may have backed off a little too much on the hops. But I think I'll go with the plan anyway; I can always add more next time.

One of the reasons (or excuses ) for doing a SMaSH is that it's a learning experience...

I meant that that concept and title of the thread was very similar, English base malt + candi sugar. I've thought about the 1800 but ditch the plans when I calculate the cost of all those hops.

I'd put the candi sugar in at flameout, based on brewing many Belgians using Candi Sugar Inc sugars.

This was a special bitter brewed with Golden Promise and a 5L Golden Candi sugar (pic below). The candi sugar contributed 20% of the original gravity points. I think it would have been better keeping the sugar the same but increasing the malt to about 1.060 original gravity, or keeping the 1.045 original gravity but using less sugar.

 

[troy2000]

1oz fuggles at 15 mins seems high.

The recipe reminds me of theakstons old peculiar... But it probably reminds people of
many british bitters...

Thanks for mentioning Teakston's Old Peculier. I wasn't familiar with it so I looked it up, and it sounds good. I found several clone recipes floating around, so I'm putting it on my to-do list.

 

[troy2000]

OK, brewed this one this evening. It went mostly per plan, except I didn't have any lemon juice or other acid to use as a catalyst for the candi. I tried caramelizing it anyway and it started solidifying, so I said the heck with it and stuffed the pan into the boil until it came out clean. So looks like the sugar may dry the beer out some, but it won't be adding any flavor.

My mash also dropped more than I'm used to, from 153* down to 147* over an hour. I could've caught it and added a little hot water, but I was busy taking a long, cool shower... been a very hot and very sticky day here. It's the monsoon season.

I also used more water than usual to sparge, so I wound up with my five-gal carboy way overfilled... I have a big blow-off tube on it, and expect to be emptying the whiskey bottle it leads to on a regular basis for a few days.

Still wound up with a 1.053 original gravity (1.051 on the hydrometer, and the chart says +.002 at 72* - which is what I cooled the sample to). The wort tasted pretty good. Not as sweet as I was expecting, and a little more hop-forward than I thought it would be (aroma/flavor; the bitterness seems about right). Adam may have been right about the second ounce of Fuggles being a bit high, although I added it at ten minutes instead of fifteen. But I have plenty of time for the hops to mellow out as the beer ferments, bottle conditions and ages.

I pitched the Safale S-04 dry at 80*, by slowly pouring it into the stream of wort as I drained my boil kettle into the carboy through a funnel. I'm planning to ferment at 65* (carboy temp, not ambient). Does that sound about right? I don't have much experience with English yeasts...

I also didn't find my Whirlfloc until I was done; it's a pain in the patootie not having a designated brewing area with everything laid out and/or put away in a logical place. But S-04 is supposedly high-flocculating to begin with, and I always cold-crash anyway. And I did get a good whirlpool in my kettle as I chilled; I was surprised by the mound of crap left behind.

 

[troy2000]

The S-04 has been busy. I pitched about 10:00 pm last night, and this is what made it through the blow-off tube by noon today....

 

[troy2000]

Finally got around to bottling this yesterday morning. I brew and bottle in a rec area where I work, and I got swarmed by people getting ready for a kid's birthday party. So I totally forgot to get a final sample... Everyone here probably knows that drill: "oh no, it's not a problem; we'll just work around you." Oversized friendly smiles, while they're busy wishing I'd get the **** out of their way. It never occurred to them to go have breakfast and come back in an hour or so when I'd be done, even though it was early in the morning and the party was six or seven hours away....

Ah well... the sample tasted pretty good, although I didn't think to get a taste until I had dissolved and added the priming sugar (I hate being crowded and rushed). I used four oz of raw sugar, because that's what I had handy and I wasn't about to try leaving and coming back, to prime exactly 48 12 oz. bottles.

I think it's going to wind up being a very drinkable blonde ale, Brit style: a little more malt backbone and a little less hop forward than American blonde ales I've tasted.

 

[JKaranka]

Planning on something similar, 8 & 1/2 pounds MO and 6oz dark candi syrup (for 6 US gallons). Good tad of upfront bitterness with little in the form of late additions and letting the MJ Burton Union sing. Let know how it turns up!

 

[rlmiller10]

I would recommend using honey malt on the next go round if you are looking for sweet. I use 30% honey malt on a black IPA and it is very malty. Of course it has a lot of hops to keep the sweetness from from tasting like frosting sweet. Using Vienna rather than the MO will also give a little more malty flavor.

I think I would like yours that way it is though. I did a simple IPA with MO, Magnum and fuggles and liked it. But had I backed off on the magnum so it was just a pale ale it still would have been very good. I did use S-05 but that was a personal choice as I don't like esters all that much.

 

[troy2000]

I cracked one of these tonight; it hasn't finished conditioning yet. It wasn't bad but it was a little sweet, a tad yeasty, and a little flat. Apparently the yeasties are just getting into gear and going after the priming sugar...

I'll have to be patient, I guess. I let it set in primary a long time, and there probably wasn't much active yeast left when I finally bottled it. So I'm not surprised it's coming along slowly.

 

[troy2000]

OK. The yeast finally got done, and I've started drinking this. I personally think it's a good, solid everyday beer, but nothing historic.

What surprises me is the reception it's gotten from my BMC-drinking friends and coworkers. I was a little more generous about handing it out than I normally am with my homebrew, and the reviews have been overwhelmingly positive. You'd think I brewed the beer of the year...

 

[JKaranka]

I'll be soon bottling an amber mild: Pale malt, dark candi, challenger. I'll let you know ��

 

[troy2000]

I'll be soon bottling an amber mild: Pale malt, dark candi, challenger. I'll let you know ��

Definitely interested in how it comes out. I wasn't familiar with Challenger hops, so I looked them up. Sounds like they're another well-balanced variety, with more citrus and floral than Fuggle.

 

[JKaranka]

Yeah, as old as the hills. Fairly balanced dual purpose hops somewhat floral like Progress, Northdown or Pioneer. Definitively less weird than Bramling Cross, Brewer's Gold or Target. It's a good hop if you want to get plenty of British hop character on a budget and right now it seems to be one of the cheapest hops I can buy in the shops (just a tad cheaper than Fuggles or EKG, but about half the price of the cheapest US C hop).

 

[troy2000]

Yeah, as old as the hills. Fairly balanced dual purpose hops somewhat floral like Progress, Northdown or Pioneer. Definitively less weird than Bramling Cross, Brewer's Gold or Target. It's a good hop if you want to get plenty of British hop character on a budget and right now it seems to be one of the cheapest hops I can buy in the shops (just a tad cheaper than Fuggles or EKG, but about half the price of the cheapest US C hop).

Sounds like I have a lot to learn about English hops; I didn't know there were so many.

Or should I say British hops? I don't want to be politically incorrect here...

 

[rlmiller10]

Yeah, as old as the hills. Fairly balanced dual purpose hops somewhat floral like Progress, Northdown or Pioneer. Definitively less weird than Bramling Cross, Brewer's Gold or Target. It's a good hop if you want to get plenty of British hop character on a budget and right now it seems to be one of the cheapest hops I can buy in the shops (just a tad cheaper than Fuggles or EKG, but about half the price of the cheapest US C hop).

What is it you consider weird about Bramling Cross? I use it in a couple of brews but in a mix of other hops so not sure of it's stand alone character. There are just so many hops and so much to learn about them.

 

[JKaranka]

It's just less balanced than traditional British hops (might be grown anywhere, although most originate from England). It has that blackcurrant note and some slight citrus / grapefruit like Brewer's Gold. More popular now than around a hundred years ago when it was crossed!

 

[dyqik]

Sounds like I have a lot to learn about English hops; I didn't know there were so many.

Or should I say British hops? I don't want to be politically incorrect here...

They're definitely English

The hop growing areas are basically the South East of England - Kent, Sussex and surrounding counties. There's a reason that Scottish ales are lighter on the hops than English ales.

 

[JKaranka]

I think that story is a bit of an old wives tale. All of Britain has been dependent on imports of malt and hops for at least two hundred years. For Scotland Kent is relatively close and well connected compared to other main sources of hops: Alsace, Belgium, Bavaria, North America or Bohemia. It's the same with malts, most British grain has come from the continent, South Africa and Australia and then malted in the UK.

 

[Hanglow]

There's a farm in the clyde valley that grows some fuggles, but beyond that I don't think there's any hop farming in Scotland so it's fine to say english hops

you can read about english hops here
http://www.britishhops.org.uk/british-hop-varieties/

There's a lot more varieties than you'd think although they tend to be grown is quite mall quantities. Also there's a decent breeding program at the moment

Challenger is one of my favourites, as mentioned it's cheap here, is good for bittering and also has a lovely flavour. You get marmalade from it imo


I suspect the scottish beers/low level of hops came about from what was being produced during the 70s and 80s, when scottish brewing was in a very sorry state. Although there were a few decent beers around like Maclays. Thankfully it's rebounded and we have a number of great breweries, I suspect what is drunk the most now is pale and hoppy.

 

[DavidJP]

I think that story is a bit of an old wives tale. All of Britain has been dependent on imports of malt and hops for at least two hundred years. For Scotland Kent is relatively close and well connected compared to other main sources of hops: Alsace, Belgium, Bavaria, North America or Bohemia. It's the same with malts, most British grain has come from the continent, South Africa and Australia and then malted in the UK.

I'd be surprised if most barley for malt is imported. For sure wheat for bread production traditionally was but even there bread production methods have changed to allow for the use of lower protein british wheat.

I couldn't really find any great data but the Uk Maltsters site has this
"The UK is able to grow good quality malting barley, and UK maltsters buy around 2 million tonnes of this every year, from which they make about 1.5 million tonnes of malt."
http://www.ukmalt.com/uk-malting-industry

"Each year the UK produces around 6.5 million tonnes of barley. Roughly 1.5 million tonnes are exported, 2 million tonnes are used in the brewing and distilling trades with 3 million tonnes being used for animal feed."
http://www.ukagriculture.com/crops/barley_uk.cfm

They certainly export, theres about 4-5 different base malts of british origin from three different maltsters in my local LHBS and thats besides the multitude of other UK specialty malts

For hops Worcestershire and Herefordshire are even closer to Scotland and I read somewhere that half of UK hops are grown there.

 

[JKaranka]

Plenty of historic stats, i.e., half of the malted barley used by British brewers before WW2 was imported:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/brewing-in-ww-ii-part-two.html?m=1

 

[DavidJP]

Plenty of historic stats, i.e., half of the malted barley used by British brewers before WW2 was imported:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/brewing-in-ww-ii-part-two.html?m=1

I can believe that of the past and I've read on that site they imported california hops a 100+ years ago but I really doubt thats true today. Yields have increased hugely and the drive to get more self sufficient during and after the war, not to mention EU farm policies would seem to make it not so important today. But open to any evidence, the only thing I could find was this statement
In 2012/13, approximately 37,457 tonnes of malt were imported into the UK from European Union member states.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/299462/malt-uk-imports-eu-countries-united-kingdom/

and the fact that the Uk is a net exporter of barley
http://www.ukagriculture.com/food/self_sufficiency_and_crops.cfm

 

[dyqik]

That was a joke upthread. Brought to you by an English sense of humour...