Margin of error for a water profile

[Cold Country Brewery]

How close to a target profile to you consider good? My next brew will be a Pilsen and I don't have a water report back, so I'm going RO and adding in minerals. According to Ray Daniels book he recommends:

Calcium: 7
Magnesium: 2
Sodium: 2
Carbonate: 15
Sulfate: 5
Chloride: 5

He says when "adding calcium select calcium chloride rather than gypsum. You avoid adding sulfate, which can give a sharp bitterness, and instead add chloride, which will provide a desirable roundess to the palate."

I'm having a problem nailing the numbers because Calcium Chloride for example adds Calcium and Chloride. If I add the correct amount for Calcium then my Chloride target is too high. For example adding 1.5 grams in 15 gallons of distilled water will give me 7.2ppm Calcium, but 12.7ppm Chloride.

Can someone help me get my profile right? And explain how you arrived at those numbers. Thanks

 

[afr0byte]

AJ will probably respond, since he seems quite fond of the style, but you'll be fine with 12.7ppm chloride. You just want to make sure you're using a lower mineral water. I'd use RO water, assuming you have access to it, and add 2-3% acid malt in your grist.

 

[DSmith]

When you add CaCl2, there's no way around getting 2 Cl for 1 Ca. The real question is how low of Calcium concentration will you brew with and the chloride end up at about twice that for RO/distilled/very low mineral water brewing.

 

[afr0byte]

If you're stuck on that profile you can get pretty close with a small amount (~.2 grams / 5 gallons) each of calcium chloride and pickling lime. The small amount of bicarbonate you'll add isn't going to be a problem.

 

[afr0byte]

The magnesium and sulfate would be about .3 grams epsom salts per 5 gallons (starting from distilled of course).

 

[Cold Country Brewery]

AJ will probably respond, since he seems quite fond of the style, but you'll be fine with 12.7ppm chloride. You just want to make sure you're using a lower mineral water. I'd use RO water, assuming you have access to it, and add 2-3% acid malt in your grist.

My LHBS doesn't have acid malt. They do have minerals and salts to add to the water though. So I was hoping to get it done with that. But doesn't acid malt just lower the PH? That won't solve my mineral need.

The real question is how low of Calcium concentration will you brew with and the chloride end up at about twice that for RO/distilled/very low mineral water brewing.

So there isn't a way to have 7ppm Calcium and 5ppm Chloride, is that what you're saying?

 

[afr0byte]

My LHBS doesn't have acid malt. They do have minerals and salts to add to the water though. So I was hoping to get it done with that. But doesn't acid malt just lower the PH? That won't solve my mineral need.

Yes it lowers pH. You'll need to lower your pH with such low alkalinity water and such low mineral additions (as well as a lack of acidity from crystal or other darker grains).

EDIT: This is the reason the original brewers of pilsners used an acid rest.

 

[Cold Country Brewery]

Yes it lowers pH. You'll need to lower your pH with such low alkalinity water and such low mineral additions (as well as a lack of acidity from crystal or other darker grains).

EDIT: This is the reason the original brewers of pilsners used an acid rest.

Good info. I really need a good PH meter. So if I don't have access to acid malt is there another way to lower the PH (doing an acid rest?)?

 

[afr0byte]

You could see if you can find lactic acid. You'll need roughly 2-3ml. I've never actually done an acid rest, but I'd wager you'd get much more reliable results from acid malt or lactic acid.

 

[ajdelange]

How close to a target profile to you consider good? My next brew will be a Pilsen and I don't have a water report back, so I'm going RO and adding in minerals. According to Ray Daniels book he recommends:

Calcium: 7
Magnesium: 2
Sodium: 2
Carbonate: 15
Sulfate: 5
Chloride: 5

Matching profiles is much over rated. It is more than sufficient to have the water you brew with generally similar to the water with which the style was originally brewed if your goal is authenticity. Other than that it is entirely up to you. Low mineral content water does make for a good Pils (and for some good ales too). It is necessary that the total mineral content be low enough that there is no hint of 'saltiness'. I do Pils with RO and the calcium at 20 or so and that's OK. The beer still has that fine, soft on the palate quality. The local brewpub does theirs with calcium at around 45 and that's right on the edge.

I get the 20 ppm Ca++ from CaCl2 in RO water and consequently have chloride close to 40. That's really what I am after. The chloride smooths, rounds and sweetens the beer.

You really do need some sauermalz (or acid). Your LHBS should have some phosphoric or lactic. The problem would be determining a dose without a pH meter to check.

If you are feeling adventuresome you can make some sauermalz quite easily. Just moisten some pilsner malt, cover it tightly and hold it for a couple of days at 47 °C. If it doesn't smell putrid after 3 days then it's OK. You can dump it on a cookie sheet and dry it in the oven at around 200 °F. It will lower the mash pH (use 2% of the weight of the grist)

 

[Cold Country Brewery]

Matching profiles is much over rated. It is more than sufficient to have the water you brew with generally similar to the water with which the style was originally brewed if your goal is authenticity. Other than that it is entirely up to you. Low mineral content water does make for a good Pils (and for some good ales too). It is necessary that the total mineral content be low enough that there is no hint of 'saltiness'. I do Pils with RO and the calcium at 20 or so and that's OK. The beer still has that fine, soft on the palate quality. The local brewpub does theirs with calcium at around 45 and that's right on the edge.

I get the 20 ppm Ca++ from CaCl2 in RO water and consequently have chloride close to 40. That's really what I am after. The chloride smooths, rounds and sweetens the beer.

You really do need some sauermalz (or acid). Your LHBS should have some phosphoric or lactic. The problem would be determining a dose without a pH meter to check.

If you are feeling adventuresome you can make some sauermalz quite easily. Just moisten some pilsner malt, cover it tightly and hold it for a couple of days at 47 °C. If it doesn't smell putrid after 3 days then it's OK. You can dump it on a cookie sheet and dry it in the oven at around 200 °F. It will lower the mash pH (use 2% of the weight of the grist)

Thank you very much! I'm going to take your advice and just add the 20ppm Ca++ from CaCI2 in RO water. But looks like I really should get a good PH meter and some sauermaltz. Just when I thought I knew it all.....

 

[drummstikk]

You can make lactic acid more reliably:

Make a liter of 1.040 wort. Once it is cool, toss in a handful of malt. This will inoculate your work with lactic bugs. Take out 5 mL in a tube (or glass, whatever) and let it sit at room temp for 12 hours. Then dilute the 5mL with another 5 mL of your inoculated stock to make 10 mL. 12 hours after that (24 hours from total), throw away half of your culture, and add another 5 mL from the stock. Repeat this dilution process every 12 hours for 3-7 days, and yuu'll eventually see the pH drop (just use strips to measure) and bubbles.

Now you can dilute your 10 mL starter culture into 100 mL of 1.040 wort, and a few days later, dilute it into 1 L of wort. After this ferments a few days, you now have a liter of a dilute lactic acid solution that you can use to acidify your mashes to the correct pH. Add a few mL at a time so you don't undershoot your pH.

Don't worry about adding bacteria to your beer, because you're going to boil after the mash anyway!

 

[ajdelange]

I don't follow this. Why go to all this trouble and take 3-7 days when you can be done in 3? In the first place, lactobacilli are facultative anaerobes. Oxygen should be excluded to the extent possible. Second, they ferment best at about 47 °C. Put these two together and you get the recommendation to keep the mash closely covered at warm temperature. The pH will begin to drop immediately and will stop dropping after about 3 days (if you work them at 47 °C). Excluding oxygen insures that they will ferment instead of respiring and also prevents aerobic bacteria from gaining a foot hold. Getting the rapid drop in pH also aids in this.

The German breweries tend to use sauergut rather than sauermalz. This is done by fermenting wort inoculated with lactobacilli. I don't know the details and I've never made the stuff but obviously you can innoculate either from a sauermalz starter which you know to be clean (smells and tastes good) or the liquid therefrom or just throw some malt in there (the bugs are on the surface). Seems to me the sauermalz starter would be a better approach as you know the bugs are viable and of the right sort. In either case you would want to hold the wort in a sealed tank at 47 °C. Fermentation should be complete is a few days.

Obviously, it's much simpler to just buy lactic acid from your LHBS but experimenting with making sauermalz/sauergut is fun and instructive and sauermalz does more than sour. It adds a subtle complexity to beer which IMO improves it.

 

[drummstikk]

When I do the dilutions, I'm essentially making a sauermalz starter from whatever lactic acid bugs are on the grains. If you have success with letting your mash rest at 47C, please don't let me tell you you're doing it wrong. I make the starter to eliminate any variability that might come from souring a mash.

When I attempt to sour a mash, I don't know what type of bacteria are already present on the malt. There could be a lot of lactic acid bugs, in which case you will likely get a nice sour flavor. There could also be a few lactic acid bugs, and a lot of enteric bacteria, which can also be facultative anaerobes (like E. coli). Most enterics don't like temps up to 47C as you pointed out, so keeping the mash hot biases things in the lactic favor for sure. But I make a sour starter to be sure I don't have any rotten-smelling enteric bugs in the mix.

Diluting 1:2 every 12 hours is a technique I borrowed from bakers making a sourdough starter. It allows fast-dividing bacteria (like lactic acid bugs) to thrive, while slower molds are constantly diluted out. Enteric bacteria may be fast dividers too, but as soon as there are enough lactic acid bugs to acidify the wort, all of the enteric bacteria will stop dividing. Their numbers will be reduced drastically after a few dilutions.

Think of it as a race between enteric and lactic bugs. When you just let a mash rest for a while, you don't always know who will win. But in a constantly-diluted culture, the lactic bugs will win every time. For the same reason, a sourdough baker doesn't just make dough and let it sit in a warm spot -- they inoculate the dough with a sour starter they inherited or produced in this manner.

Inoculating the mash withe a pure lactobacillus culture would definitely do the trick, as those guys will overwhelm the enteric bacs present in the mash very quickly. I see making my own starter as a middle ground between a pure culture and a sour mash. I know it will work every time, but I also leave the door open to interesting flavors that may come from a mixed culture that I collected myself.

 

[mabrungard]

AJ and drummstikk are both correct. But I have to introject that the extended time does allow the lactic bacteria to outcompete the enteric. Many times, the hand full of malt inoculation does produce an awful smelling concoction for the first few days, but it gives way to the clean and acidic aroma of lactic when you let it go days longer. I'm not sure if the very high temp ferment that AJ mentions alleviates the enteric issue, so I recommend letting the ferment go on longer.

Of course you can avoid the whole issue and dose with 88% lactic instantly!

 

[drummstikk]

Why go through other steps to control the flavors in your beer (yeast starter from a pure culture, oxygenation, etc.) if you're first going to allow an unknown collection of enteric microbes to have at your wort for 24 hours before lactic acid bacteria stop them in their tracks?

Why not just allow your homegrown sour culture to stabilize for a few days first in a small amount of wort, all the while diluting away the enteric bugs, (pop in in the fridge once it's stabilized if you're not ready to brew yet), then pitch into your wort whenever you're ready to brew.

If you brew a sour beer more than once, (or use the sour starter for wort acidification to hit your target pH), you'll save yourself huge amounts of time (days!) because you don't have to go through the enteric / lactic transition every time you brew. The sour starter can be propagated just like a sourdough starter. Not only that, but you can sour at room temperature if you have a stable sour starter. No need to insulate your mash to keep it at 47C. And in principle, you should get very similar complex flavors after doing a sour starter -- remember it's a stable acidified culture, but not a pure culture.

Keep in mind what lambic brewers do to ensure good beer resulting from an enteric fermentation. They age beer for 2-3 years, blend, and even throw out a sizable fraction of their fermentations because they simply don't taste good. I know Papazian wrote about the whole-mash souring technique in his book, and maybe it works for people -- I have not tried it. I just don't want to subject one of my beers to the risk. $30-40 and 4 - 6 hours of my time are too valuable.