Mangrove Jack's kits

[Darren Birkett]

I've just done my first brew using a kit that came with my little northern brewer starter kit (currently fermenting Block Party) and am keen to plan subsequent brews.

I'm a fan of brewdogs Elvis Juice and found the Mangrove Jack pink grapefruit IPA kit. Has anyone any experience of this kit - is it suitable for brand newbies like me? I'm nowhere near ready for more advanced brewing techniques so kits are fine for me while I feel my way, but if there are any tips on how to pimp the kits for a bit of extra oomph, it would be much appreciated!

 

[Jag75]

Congrats on your first brew and welcome to the forum. I did kits at first as well to get my feet wet then moved to all grain. It's a good starting point. Kits are pretty basic and I dont think you should shy away from doing the IPA kit by Mangrove Jack.

Just keep things clean and sanitized . Watch your fermentation temp and having patience will get you a long way. Make sure you keep o2 out of your beer , especially with IPAs . Oxidation reeks havoc on hoppy beers. Dont need to do secondaries unless your adding fruits, nibs, chips ect....

Have fun and enjoy the fruits of your labor. It's very rewarding when you and friends enjoy something you made and patiently waited for.

As for giving an extra oomph maybe swapping out yeast. You could do liquid yeast. Talk to your LHBS about which yeast you could use that doesnt require a starter like some Imperial yeasts.

 

[Darren Birkett]

Thanks @Jag75 . I've been trying to keep my currently fermenting beer temperature as constant as possible (currently sitting under my stairs in a cupboard wrapped in fleece and winter jackets!), though I think it's still a little on the low side at around 18C. Am going to leave that in there for 3 weeks before taking an SG reading (though I believe the kit instructions said 2, from my reading it seems a bit longer might help the yeast clean up and settle better).

As for the kit - I know there are a lot of brands, I wasn't sure if this was a good one or not. I guess I need to find a good UK supplier for all the bits and pieces. I hadn't considered *upgrading* the yeast as I thought the yeast was an essential part of the flavour profile of that particular kit. Thanks for the tip - I'll do a bit more reading on this

 

[Jag75]

Good deal man . I always let it go for 3 weeks as well . Welcome to the madness lol.

 

[RM-MN]

Am going to leave that in there for 3 weeks before taking an SG reading (though I believe the kit instructions said 2, from my reading it seems a bit longer might help the yeast clean up and settle better).

During the initial fermentation when the yeast are really active the beer needs its temperature controlled to keep the yeast from throwing off flavors. Once the fermentation slows, though, letting the beer warm will keep the yeast working to clean up what off flavors they can and encourages them to eat the remaining, more difficult to digest sugars. I usually leave my beers where it is cool for 5 to 7 days and then move them to a warmer location.

http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html

 

[Darren Birkett]

During the initial fermentation when the yeast are really active the beer needs its temperature controlled to keep the yeast from throwing off flavors. Once the fermentation slows, though, letting the beer warm will keep the yeast working to clean up what off flavors they can and encourages them to eat the remaining, more difficult to digest sugars. I usually leave my beers where it is cool for 5 to 7 days and then move them to a warmer location.

http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html

Excellent - that's actually very timely advice as my first brew has been sitting at around 18c for 13 days now. I will move it immediately to a warmer area for the next week before I do my first of 3-days-apart SG readings to check it's all done. Thanks!

EDIT: That's a great overview article on the lifecyle of yeast in a fermenter too. Anyone completely new to brewing should definitely read it!

 

[jtrux]

I've just done my first brew using a kit that came with my little northern brewer starter kit (currently fermenting Block Party) and am keen to plan subsequent brews.

I'm a fan of brewdogs Elvis Juice and found the Mangrove Jack pink grapefruit IPA kit. Has anyone any experience of this kit - is it suitable for brand newbies like me? I'm nowhere near ready for more advanced brewing techniques so kits are fine for me while I feel my way, but if there are any tips on how to pimp the kits for a bit of extra oomph, it would be much appreciated!

If your wanting to add oomph without effecting flavors, you could add a small amount of table suger. If kept below 5% your fermentables, I’ve never noticed it effect the flavor. Add it at flame out. Just watch bc adding too much suger can give off flavors and can cause fermentation to stall. But kept at 5% you will be fine. You could also add some extra light DME to add oomph, add at flameout to reduce it changing your flavor profile too much. DME will slightly change flavor profile, whereas cane suger is neutral and cheep.

 

[Darren Birkett]

OK I'm probably risking asking a question that's already been answered somewhere (I guess all questions have to be fair), but how would I know how much 5% of my fermentables is? Will the kit have details of exact weight of fermentables in the syrup?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

5% of your fermentables is 5% by weight of all the sugary stuff, including the extract syrup in the kit tin itself (I think from memory they're normally 1.7Kg, plus that kit calls for an extra 1.2kg of malt extract, that's close to 3kg, so 5% would be about 150g). Ignore the instruction to 'add at flameout' - that doesn't apply to the kits you're doing (it's for extract and all-grain brewing). By 'oomph', did you mean extra booze, or extra flavours? Be aware that adding extra sugar/dextrose/malt extract to boost alcohol will start to affect flavour and drinkability of the beer.

 

[Darren Birkett]

5% of your fermentables is 5% by weight of all the sugary stuff, including the extract syrup in the kit tin itself (I think from memory they're normally 1.7Kg, plus that kit calls for an extra 1.2kg of malt extract, that's close to 3kg, so 5% would be about 150g). Ignore the instruction to 'add at flameout' - that doesn't apply to the kits you're doing (it's for extract and all-grain brewing). By 'oomph', did you mean extra booze, or extra flavours? Be aware that adding extra sugar/dextrose/malt extract to boost alcohol will start to affect flavour and drinkability of the beer.

Ah ok thanks . The first kit I did was an extract brew then (it had liquid malt, plus speciality grains, and required a 60 minute boil after steeping the grains). I guess this particular kit has no speciality grains, so there's no boil?

Anyway, yes I meant more oomph as in some more complex flavouring, rather than just higher alcohol.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I don't think the Mangrove Jacks one is an extract brew needing a boil or steeping grains (but it doesn't say much about it on their website). It think it's just a kit like a Coopers (pre-hopped extract kit - add water, yeast and some extra sugars and let it go) but with some extra dry hops to tart it up a bit. The good news is that BrewDog print the recipes for all of their beers online. They can be found here
https://d1fnkk8n0t8a0e.cloudfront.net/docs/DIY_DOG_Combined_LR.pdf
Elvis Juice is recipe#211.
The recipe is for all-grain, but I'll follow up shortly with a conversion to extract.

 

[Darren Birkett]

I don't think the Mangrove Jacks one is an extract brew needing a boil or steeping grains (but it doesn't say much about it on their website). It think it's just a kit like a Coopers (pre-hopped extract kit - add water, yeast and some extra sugars and let it go) but with some extra dry hops to tart it up a bit. The good news is that BrewDog print the recipes for all of their beers online. They can be found here
https://d1fnkk8n0t8a0e.cloudfront.net/docs/DIY_DOG_Combined_LR.pdf
Elvis Juice is recipe#211.
The recipe is for all-grain, but I'll follow up shortly with a conversion to extract.

Wow, thank you, that would be amazing. Whilst very much new, I did manage to cope with the original extract kit and enjoyed working with the little bit of grain and hops. I didn't realise the MG kit skipped all that completely (apart from a little hops).

An extract based recipe for Elvis Juice would be fantastic!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

For 20L
3Kg of light dry malt extract + 400g Dextrose + 880g Caramalt
or
3.6Kg of Pale liquid malt extract + 400g Dextrose + 880g Caramalt.
(or a combination of both).
Steep the Caramalt as you did in your first recipe.
Bring the malt extract, dextrose and liquid from the steeped grains to a boil in 23L of water (assuming boiloff/losses of about 3L - adjust if necessary).
Start a 30 minute boil timer (you'll only need a 30 minute boil for this one). Add the following during the boil (I've adjusted a little bit from the recipe):
15g Simcoe @ 30 minutes (that means 30 minutes of the boil remaining)
15g Amarillo @ 30 minutes
Zest of 3 grapefruit @ 5 minutes
Zest of 3 oranges @ 5 minutes
25g Mosaic @ 0 minutes (at the same time as you turn the heat off and start chilling)
25g Citra @ 0 minutes
12.5g Amarillo @ 0 minutes
12.5g Simcoe @ 0 minutes
Chill to about 20 degrees C, transfer to fermenter, then pitch a packet of Safale US-05 yeast. After a week of fermenting, add 50g each of Citra, Amarillo and Simcoe hops to the fermenter (dry hops). Don't take the lid right off - the aim here is to avoid letting oxygen into the fermenter. Bottle after 2 weeks if the gravity is stable (if you want to leave it 3 weeks, add the dry hops 2 weeks into the ferment instead - i.e. leave the dry hops in for a week).

 

[Darren Birkett]

For 20L
3Kg of light dry malt extract + 400g Dextrose + 880g Caramalt
or
3.6Kg of Pale liquid malt extract + 400g Dextrose + 880g Caramalt.
(or a combination of both).
Steep the Caramalt as you did in your first recipe.
Bring the malt extract, dextrose and liquid from the steeped grains to a boil in 23L of water (assuming boiloff/losses of about 3L - adjust if necessary).
Start a 30 minute boil timer (you'll only need a 30 minute boil for this one). Add the following during the boil (I've adjusted a little bit from the recipe):
15g Simcoe @ 30 minutes (that means 30 minutes of the boil remaining)
15g Amarillo @ 30 minutes
Zest of 3 grapefruit @ 5 minutes
Zest of 3 oranges @ 5 minutes
25g Mosaic @ 0 minutes (at the same time as you turn the heat off and start chilling)
25g Citra @ 0 minutes
12.5g Amarillo @ 0 minutes
12.5g Simcoe @ 0 minutes
Chill to about 20 degrees C, transfer to fermenter, then pitch a packet of Safale US-05 yeast. After a week of fermenting, add 50g each of Citra, Amarillo and Simcoe hops to the fermenter (dry hops). Don't take the lid right off - the aim here is to avoid letting oxygen into the fermenter. Bottle after 2 weeks if the gravity is stable (if you want to leave it 3 weeks, add the dry hops 2 weeks into the ferment instead - i.e. leave the dry hops in for a week).

@Gnomebrewer that is awesome. Thanks so much for that. It's going to be a couple weeks before I can start it, but I can't wait already!

Question: how do you work out that it only needs a 30 minute boil based on what's in there?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Because you don't need any hops boiled for 60 minutes (bittering hops). The original recipe had 2.5g of Magnum at 60 minutes (a tiny amount), but I replaced that with some extra hops at 30 minutes (it's not worth buying a packet of hops to just use 2.5 grams).

 

[Darren Birkett]

OK so, I finally got round to making this. It's sitting in the fermenter now. Very excited!

While I was making it, I realised there were a few things I should have asked before hand:

- The zest went in @5 min. After chilling, while pouring into the fermenter, I wasn't sure if the zest should go into the fermenter or not? Thinking about it now, probably not (though I see a lot of folks add fresh peel to the fermenter?). I ended up with about 1/3 of the peel going in. Will this hurt?

- It took a while to cool this one. I did use an ice bath in the sink, but left the lid on to prevent post-boil contamination, so it took a couple of hours. All the while, the late hops that were added at flame out were sitting in there (in a muslin bag). Is that going to add too much bitterness? Should the hop bag come out at flame out? When tasting at SG reading time, it was super bitter even with all the sugar in there. Hope it's not ruined

- I've read a few threads since then on chilling, and next time might try using a smaller boil and then just adding to sanitised ice in the fermenter to chill faster. Some of the discussion against using this method (I know there are other reasons not to) is because people want to do a 'full boil'. Why? If the hops and any other things are added to less water in the boil, so that you can top up with ice/water later to speed up the chill, what difference? Reading the Palmer book (only a little bit so far), he seems to advocate a partial boil for extracts which would allow this method of cooling, with no downside to the boil stage. Just wondering what the big advantage of the 'full boil' is?

- When taking my SG reading after cooling, it was a bit high and the brewers friend calculator suggested I might end up with a beer around 8% (!), so I added a bit of water to bring the SG down (as well as increasing volume as I know a lot of my hops 'bits' ended up in the fermenter too and I wanted to account for later loss to trub). Is it ok to do that? Is there some other way to do it? I kind of guessed and brought the SG from 1.070 to 1.056 by adding a couple of litres.

Thanks for reading!
Darren

 

[Gnomebrewer]

- The zest went in @5 min. After chilling, while pouring into the fermenter, I wasn't sure if the zest should go into the fermenter or not? Thinking about it now, probably not (though I see a lot of folks add fresh peel to the fermenter?). I ended up with about 1/3 of the peel going in. Will this hurt?

I take it out, but I don't think it will be a problem.

- It took a while to cool this one. I did use an ice bath in the sink, but left the lid on to prevent post-boil contamination, so it took a couple of hours. All the while, the late hops that were added at flame out were sitting in there (in a muslin bag). Is that going to add too much bitterness? Should the hop bag come out at flame out? When tasting at SG reading time, it was super bitter even with all the sugar in there. Hope it's not ruined

It will add more bitterness than intended. You shouldn't have taken the hops out, but could have added them a bit later (maybe after 5 to 10 minutes of chilling). You needed some bitterness from the flameout hops though, so don't be too worried. I think it should still be drinkable. Extraction of bitterness (isomerisation of alpha acids) slows down a lot as you get below boiling temperatures, to very little once it's below about 80C, which you probably go to fairly quickly. Wort at yeast pitching time always tastes super bitter, so don't use that as a guide. As the yeast go through their lag phase, the pH will drop and make the wort taste more sweet than bitter.

- I've read a few threads since then on chilling, and next time might try using a smaller boil and then just adding to sanitised ice in the fermenter to chill faster. Some of the discussion against using this method (I know there are other reasons not to) is because people want to do a 'full boil'. Why? If the hops and any other things are added to less water in the boil, so that you can top up with ice/water later to speed up the chill, what difference? Reading the Palmer book (only a little bit so far), he seems to advocate a partial boil for extracts which would allow this method of cooling, with no downside to the boil stage. Just wondering what the big advantage of the 'full boil' is?

The only advantage I know if is that you get better hop extraction in lower gravity wort. You could also make a simple copper wort chiller by getting a few meters of annealed 1/2inch copper pipe and bending it into a coil that fits inside your pot. Clamp a bit of garden hose on to each end with a hose attachment joined to them and you have a simple chiller.

- When taking my SG reading after cooling, it was a bit high and the brewers friend calculator suggested I might end up with a beer around 8% (!), so I added a bit of water to bring the SG down (as well as increasing volume as I know a lot of my hops 'bits' ended up in the fermenter too and I wanted to account for later loss to trub). Is it ok to do that? Is there some other way to do it? I kind of guessed and brought the SG from 1.070 to 1.056 by adding a couple of litres.

Thanks for reading!
Darren

That's OK. You probably boiled off more than the recipe was written for, so adding water was the right thing to do. 1.056 is a bit low though - ideally it would have come down to about 1.060.

 

[Darren Birkett]

Extraction of bitterness (isomerisation of alpha acids) slows down a lot as you get below boiling temperatures, to very little once it's below about 80C, which you probably go to fairly quickly

Ok great, yes I think I was below 80c fairly quickly, just slower as the temp got lower.

You could also make a simple copper wort chiller

Yeah, that seems to be a popular thing to do. I may just have to give it a go...though I was also reading about the no chill method invented on your side of the world to conserve water. Seems pretty reasonable, and if I read correctly the transfer happens very soon after flame out so the hops are removed at that stage to prevent further bittering (though there is a section in Brewer's Friend to account for additional 'no chill' bittering?)

That's OK. You probably boiled off more than the recipe was written for, so adding water was the right thing to do. 1.056 is a bit low though - ideally it would have come down to about 1.060.

Well, this was after topping up to 20L on transfer to the fermenter. Maybe I wasn't quite at 20L. Either way, I wish I'd not guessed and maybe added a little less water. I agree that 1.056 feels a little low for this beer.

I think it should still be drinkable

Oh, I'm drinking it regardless

Many thanks for all your help.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I agree that 1.056 feels a little low for this beer.


Oh, I'm drinking it regardless

Many thanks for all your help.

Maybe dissolve about 220g of dry malt extract in a little bit of boiling water and add it to the fermenter. That'll add about 4 points (get you up to 1.060) which will also balance out the extra bitterness a little bit.

 

[Darren Birkett]

I did wonder about the possibility of just dumping some dextrose in there. I'm away now and unable to get to the fermenter until Wednesday. Given that the bulk of simple sugar fermentation will be done by then, and as I understand it the yeast will be into the stationary growth phase, I assume the yeast will be happy to kick back into 'simple sugar mode' at that point?

 

[Darren Birkett]

@Gnomebrewer just wanted to return here and say thanks again. I finally bottled this beer last night. I didn't bother adding any extra sugar even with the lower SG. According to the calculations, I got 86% apparent attenuation as it went from 1.056 to 1.008 (15 days + 6 days dry hop), giving me around 6.3% ABV - which worked out just right.

Tasting it on bottling, it was very bitter, but very Elvis Juicy. Maybe lacked a little sweetness that the commercial Elvis Juice has, which I guess may be due to the slightly higher than advertised attenuation for this yeast (?). I suppose I might have avoided this if I'd added the extra DME as you suggested. Either way, it's conditioning in the bottles now and I can't wait to try it properly

Cheers!