Man, I SCREWED UP... Advice?

[lukebuz]

OK, I had 2 gallons of cranberry juice wine that I, in my newbie early successes, threw together. Wanted it extra tart, so I added 3 tsp of acid blend to an already acidic must. Long story short, it wouldn't start. Frothing starters went to their DEATH in this must. Poor Premier Cuvee's.
So, I made another 2 gallons with no acid blend - and it took right off. It was my intent to mix these two together. Well, slowly added the acidic must to the strong fermenting one, and you guessed it...I pretty much killed it too. I could measure the slowing of the fermentation as I added it in stages. From 10 points a day reduction to 1. Maybe. Tried several re-pitches, more nutrient, more energizer, stirring, aeration, etc...

So, here are the stats:
5 Gallons of Volume of Cranberry Juice (Ocean Spray)
Starting Gravity of 1.110
Current Gravity of 1.060
Acid TA 0.835 (was 0.96 in pre-blend)
pH 2.48 (measured with my workplace's highly accurate calibrated meter)

I've dumped the bucket into a 5G glass carboy...but don't see alot of activity. Now what? Advice? Just dump it? I guess it's only $35 down the drain...

 

[sweetcell]

i'm inexperienced in the ways of wine, but two things come to mind: dilution and pH adjustment via alkali. if pH is the problem (and i'm pretty sure 2.48 is really low, even for wine) then up the pH.

this is the part where someone who knows what they're talking about tells me "kinda" and sets us all straight...

 

[TopgunTango]

Your wort basically has the ph of lemon juice, which will be impossible to ferment at. You can try using pickling lime, if you can get your hands on it, to raise the ph to an acceptable level (5.5-6.5). Baking soda is theoretically another thing you can use. I have no ideas on the amounts you should use, tho.

I would just dump it at this point, as doing anything to it now will either leave it cloudy or alter the taste. You should only ph correct water, as you can filter out any solids afterwards.

 

[jensmith]

OK, I had 2 gallons of cranberry juice wine that I, in my newbie early successes, threw together. Wanted it extra tart, so I added 3 tsp of acid blend to an already acidic must. Long story short, it wouldn't start. Frothing starters went to their DEATH in this must. Poor Premier Cuvee's.
So, I made another 2 gallons with no acid blend - and it took right off. It was my intent to mix these two together. Well, slowly added the acidic must to the strong fermenting one, and you guessed it...I pretty much killed it too. I could measure the slowing of the fermentation as I added it in stages. From 10 points a day reduction to 1. Maybe. Tried several re-pitches, more nutrient, more energizer, stirring, aeration, etc...

So, here are the stats:
5 Gallons of Volume of Cranberry Juice (Ocean Spray)
Starting Gravity of 1.110
Current Gravity of 1.060
Acid TA 0.835 (was 0.96 in pre-blend)
pH 2.48 (measured with my workplace's highly accurate calibrated meter)

I've dumped the bucket into a 5G glass carboy...but don't see alot of activity. Now what? Advice? Just dump it? I guess it's only $35 down the drain...

Have you added any nutrients or energizers? Its worth a shot.
There are wine additives for changing the ph. Don't dump it untill someone else chimes it that knows what they are.
Second try, dilute with apple juice or cider. Cran apple wine is wonderfull!!!! It is still very early in its life as a wine. Plently of time to fix it.
Way past my bed time. Maybe locical fixes will come to me when I am awake...

 

[insanim8er]

Your wort basically has the ph of lemon juice, which will be impossible to ferment at. You can try using pickling lime, if you can get your hands on it, to raise the ph to an acceptable level (5.5-6.5). Baking soda is theoretically another thing you can use. I have no ideas on the amounts you should use, tho.

I would just dump it at this point, as doing anything to it now will either leave it cloudy or alter the taste. You should only ph correct water, as you can filter out any solids afterwards.

Bogus... Read about Skeeter Pee and then apologize. :cross:

It's very possible to ferment lemon juice... It requires A LOT of very healthy yeast and additional yeast on top of that.

Also, why are you adding acid before it's done anyway? You should finish out your ferment then add your acids to taste.

Did you use juice or cocktail? And did it have anything added to it? Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) generally adds tartness already. And potassium sorbet is a yeast inhibitor. If it's added to your juice, it can be very difficult to get fermentation.

To lower PH, some wine makers use calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate... Baking soda can be used. It is sodium bicarbonate, but my understanding is it's not legal for commercial wine makers to use. Also it might not settle out and can leave the wine cloudy.. etc.

I wouldn't dump it. I would either follow the skeeterpee advice and go big with the yeast, or I'd dilute it down with apple juice to lower the PH and have something different than what you set out to do.

 

[TopgunTango]

Bogus... Read about Skeeter Pee and then apologize. :cross: It's very possible to ferment lemon juice... It requires A LOT of very healthy yeast and additional yeast on top of that. Also, why are you adding acid before it's done anyway? You should finish out your ferment then add your acids to taste. Did you use juice or cocktail? And did it have anything added to it? Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) generally adds tartness already. And potassium sorbet is a yeast inhibitor. If it's added to your juice, it can be very difficult to get fermentation. To lower PH, some wine makers use calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate... Baking soda can be used. It is sodium bicarbonate, but my understanding is it's not legal for commercial wine makers to use. Also it might not settle out and can leave the wine cloudy.. etc. I wouldn't dump it. I would either follow the skeeterpee advice and go big with the yeast, or I'd dilute it down with apple juice to lower the PH and have something different than what you set out to do.

Bogus? I think not.

I know very well about skeeter pee. You seem to know about it but do you know what the recipe calls for?

There is 4 1/2 gallons of reverse osmosis water (ph 7) for a quart of lemon juice (ph 2) and 16 cups of sugar (ph 7). Calculations aside, this will bring your ph to 4.5-5.5, which is where brewer's yeast thrives.

Lemon juice rarely has enough sugar content to ferment on its own, and if it does start to ferment then it sure ain't friendly yeasties at work. OP's entire solution is at 2.48 ph, not just a quart of it.

Skeepter pee calls for the entire yeast cake of a previous batch of wine and a ****load of yeast nutrient and yeast energizer. This would call for the OP to make an entire batch of low-gravity wine (2-3 weeks time and 70$+ in my neck of the woods), the low gravity being to make sure the yeast are immediately viable, which isn't economically or practically feasible.

Try lowering the ph using methods already described in this thread or dump it. I never spend more than what I originally spent on the brew to save it, and you shouldn't either.

 

[jensmith]

OK, I had 2 gallons of cranberry juice wine that I, in my newbie early successes, threw together. Wanted it extra tart, so I added 3 tsp of acid blend to an already acidic must. Long story short, it wouldn't start. Frothing starters went to their DEATH in this must. Poor Premier Cuvee's.
So, I made another 2 gallons with no acid blend - and it took right off. It was my intent to mix these two together. Well, slowly added the acidic must to the strong fermenting one, and you guessed it...I pretty much killed it too. I could measure the slowing of the fermentation as I added it in stages. From 10 points a day reduction to 1. Maybe. Tried several re-pitches, more nutrient, more energizer, stirring, aeration, etc...

So, here are the stats:
5 Gallons of Volume of Cranberry Juice (Ocean Spray)
Starting Gravity of 1.110
Current Gravity of 1.060
Acid TA 0.835 (was 0.96 in pre-blend)
pH 2.48 (measured with my workplace's highly accurate calibrated meter)

I've dumped the bucket into a 5G glass carboy...but don't see alot of activity. Now what? Advice? Just dump it? I guess it's only $35 down the drain...

You already have 7-8% abv. Either try diluting it with a two galleon rip roaring cider/grape yeast starter (again) with plenty of stirring in an open bucket. Or leave it under airlock and ignore it for a week or month. Cranberry is very very slow to ferment. It is just very odd the first batch would not start and killed yeast starters. You did everything right. Except the acid blend that is. My guess would be that the high acid is not the whole problem.
Recheck ingrediants of first batch of juice.

 

[lukebuz]

Well, it look like my options are to:

Wait and See...

Dilute further...Cran-Apple? Might not be bad...

Calcium Carbonate...Adding Chalk to Wine... Yum.

I have about $35 into this, and while it sucks dumping money...I'm not willing add chalk or dilute further...considering the problems so far (sitting in a bucket for so long, oxygen exposure while stuck, various mixes, dumping from carboys to buckets, re-pitches, etc...). So, I think I'll just go with the Wait and See method. It doesn't taste "bad", although it's hard to tell with a yeasty, half-fermented sugary juice. So, I've put it in a 5G carboy, a warm heating pad underneath, and we will wait and see what happens.
If I doesn't go, it's getting dumped.

As for other ingredients, Ocean Spray 27% juice cocktail - no preserves, but with Ascorbic Acid, so pure juice and water mix. No Apple Juice or anything. Sugar to 1.110 (in stages); right nutrient and energizer; just too much acid to already acidic juice. Stupid Mistake.

 

[AlCophile]

This info is given for scientific purposes, only:
If you're gonna experiment, do it on a small portion which is representative of the larger batch. This is called an aliquot. This way, you're less likely to drink it ($$$) and poison yourself.
This is REALLY quick & dirty: I should think that a calcium salt of your acid(s) would be the least soluble, so, treat it with food-grade calcium carbonate, and CHILL THE CRAP OUT OF IT!!! The salt may crystallize out. Maybe not.

 

[RegarRenill]

Potassium Carbonate would be a better choice to raise your pH. Dissolves better in liquids and doesn't give chalky residue/taste to the wine. My advise would be to start small and gradually add until fermentation takes off again, maybe use another starter with a killer yeast...

 

[lukebuz]

Well, I swear to the good lord in heaven above...I don't understand this batch.
I dumped it into my 5G carboy, added 14oz of sugar (required due to a plain juice addition I had done prior, to keep the right SG), and looked at it.
It was dead. No bubbles.
Went to sleep.
Woke up.
See 1 bubble per second out the airlock, and a healthy frothy head. :fro:

WTF

 

[TopgunTango]

Is adding sugar (ph 7) all you did? It might have been enough to raise the ph a point, which would make it ok for most yeast.

 

[lukebuz]

Yup, that's all I did. However...the pH reading was after the sugar!!
nestar: nestar: nestar:

 

[insanim8er]

Yup, that's all I did. However...the pH reading was after the sugar!!
nestar: nestar: nestar:

Good thing you didn't listen and tossed it...

 

[jensmith]

Good thing you didn't listen and tossed it...

"Hurry up and wait" or "leave it be" are the best cures!! Or the suger did the trick.... Glad it is back in working order!