Making cider with winfall apples & kitchen juicer

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
P

paddyb

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
49
Reaction score
2
Hello

For my first attempt at home brewing, I want to turn the 100’s of windfall apples scattered over my garden in to cider.

I have a home brew starter kit inc 5 gallon fermenter, airlock, steriliser, hydrometer, thermometer, bottling rod & syphon. I haven’t got a press, so will be using a kitchen juicer to extract the juice.

After a fair bit of reading on the subject, there doesn’t seem to be an absolute “right” way to do this, but after taking advice from a local homebrew shop, my plan is roughly this:

Sterilise equipment
Wash, chop and juice apples
Filter / sieve to remove any excess pulp
Put juice in fermenter
Add Campden tablets (Sodium Metasulphite, on recommendation from brewshop)
Leave 24 hrs
Add yeast (and possibly some sugar)
Seal and leave to ferment for 2/3 weeks
Drink some / bottle some

I have some questions:
Using windfall apples there will be obvious bad bits, which I will cut out, but it’s difficult to get every little wormhole out. If any nasties are left in, will the campden tablets kill these off or neutralise the effects?

I have two juicers and have just done an experimental batch. Both remove most of the pulp, but there is still some left behind. One of them producers more than the other, but it floats to the top, whereas the other one produces less and it sinks to the bottom.

I’ve read about putting the juice in a blender to further liquidise it, then scooping off the froth, leaving to stand and syphon off clear juice, then sieve through a coffee grinder or muslin cloth.

Is all this necessary, and what difference will it make if there is still some pulp in the fermenter?

What can I use instead of a muslin cloth? There is not a great choice of shops nearby, so may not be able to buy it locally.

Is it important to get an airtight seal on the fermenter using Vaseline etc?
Does it need to be filled to the top with juice or can there be a gap if I can’t make enough juice?
Can it be opened after fermentation has begun?

Ok, thanks in advance!
 
Or should I pasturize it instead of using the campden tablets?
 
paddyb said:
Or should I pasturize it instead of using the campden tablets?
Click to expand...

Hi Paddy. I've made several batches of cider with store bought sweet apple cider and am just about to make my first big batch with apples from my garden. In other words I am at the same stage you are at.

I have done quite a bit of reading though. My understanding is that you should not use windfalls, but to tell the truth I am not 100% sure why, possibly because of E. coli bacteria on the ground? Bruises?

Heat treating the cider will introduce a cooked taste. I think Campden tablets are preferable? Best to rehydrate your yeast.

Cheers, and good luck!
 
paddyb,

I like Iodophor so I may do this a little different

1. Cut out the funky bits and "rinse" apples in an Iodophor (Iodine) solution before juicing, and if there is anything left (bugs) the campden should take care of it

2. There is still juice in the pulp left by both juicers, you could add pectic enzyme to the entire batch, wait 12-24 hours and then squeeze out the juice. At that point I would add campden and wait 24 hours before pitching the yeast.

3. You may use a blender of course, but if you are adding enzyme you may skip this step.

4. Muslin cloth isn't critical, you can use cheese cloth or a clean tee shirt, etc., but if you have a paint/home store near you buy paint strainers for 5 gallon buckets and strain/squeeze through those; they are usually around $5 U.S. for a package of two. If you can buy a food grade bucket at your local home store, put in the strainer, pour in your pulp with juice, add your enzyme, and then wait 12 hours or so and wring the juice out of the pulp.

5. Is your fermenter a bucket or a carboy? Either way you want to have as little head space as possible to hold the CO2 the fermentation produces and to limit the amount of O2 available.

6. Air tight is better as fermentation begins to slow down, once again to limit exposure to O2.

7. As far as opening the fermenter goes, there are many people including myself that place a loose cover on the cider (think Yooper) and de-gas (stir) on a daily basis until the must drops below 1.030, and then make the fermenter air tight.

Yeast likes O2, and since apple must usually doesn't contain a lot of nutrients, stirring "out" the CO2 and stirring in O2 really helps the yeast to reproduce optimally.
 
I use my juicer to make a couple gallons each year. It's a lengthy process but it works.

I am a fan of pasteurization but I know hardly anyone else is. However I also think my ciders are better than everyone else's. I bring the juice to 160 F for 15 minutes, then use Cote des Blancs yeast. No added sugars or chemicals at all. Maybe that's the big secrets to my success (at least in my own mind). I have yet to enter my ciders into competitions but I intend to, as they are clean and crisp and taste like grandma's applesauce. Yum.
 
I have been reading in the off season and from what I remember from the Claude Jolicoeur book, he recommends letting the apples sit a bit until the skin becomes wrinkly, a process he calls sweating the apples.

He also "strongly" recommends straining the apple juice, as juice from extractors contain a lot more particles in suspension.

Finally, I did not notice that you indicate taking any readings, such as ph or SG in your process. This may be overlooked when you posted but intend to do it . I thought I would mention this point.
 
Thanks everyone!

I went ahead and started a brew at the weekend, I may have made some mistakes so will have a go again this weekend.

I removed most of the bad bits (some had black cores?) but left a few lightly bruised bits in and there could still be other bugs/infections in some of it. I only washed them in warm water though.

Then spent most of the bank holiday trying to get the juice out. Using the juicer in the food processor worked brilliantly – for about 3 apples worth, then the filter started to clog and more pulp got in the mix. Also tried blending and chopping in the food processor, which both produced apple sauce like pulp, but again it would start to play up after a few apples worth. The other juicer produced similar results and also leaked juice all over the place and cut out every so often. I persevered with the food processor, poured juice into a jug and kept the pulp back. Then I put the pulp in a canvas shopping bag in batches and manually squeezed the juice out. It was hard work and left my kitchen in a right state, but I ended up with just under 3 gallons of juice.

24hrs with campden tablets and it’s now half filling my 5 gallon fermenter. How much of a problem is it that its only half full? Is it too late to transfer it to smaller carboys? It’s been in there over 24hrs, no bubbling in the airlock yet.

I’m using this stuff to sterilise:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231007740244?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Can this be used in the same way to wash the apples you recommended with Iodine? Iodphor doesn’t appear to be available here in the UK.

My main concerns with this batch is the sanitisation of the apples and some possible contamination from the canvas bag I used as a strainer. The material looks like untreated canvas, but had a printed logo on it. I washed it and sterilised it before use, but still worried about what chemicals from the ink will get in.

For my second attempt, I’ve bought one of these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331939314...49&var=540993056188&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

And a spare straining bag.

My plan in to put the apples in a bucket and roughly smash with a blunt object (possibly the handle of the fruit press) then put them through the press and bottle in one gallon carboys, possible experimenting with pasteurising, adding sugar etc to different batches.

I took an SG reader of 52 just before I put the airlock in. I haven’t got a PH reader, how important is this?

Any further comments and advise would be most welcome!
 
It sounds like you had a long day of work. Congratulations on getting your juice extracted! I am not sure I would have used a canvas bag to filter but it seems to have worked on some level.

If you are going to go with the press, you may want to consider freezing the apples prior to squeezing them. It will cut out a production step and allow you to extract more juice.


The introduction of air space in the fermenting chamber increases the chances that contamination may occur. Saying that, on one of my early batches I did have an ample amount of head space and made it through with no contamination occurring. I attribute this to careful handling and strict sanitising rules.

I would not use bubbles in the airlock as the main indicator that fermenting process is underway. Use your hydrometer to check this. I had a batch that did not bubble once but completely fermented out. The excess head space in your fermenting vessel may just be holding the gas or there could be a loose seal.

Here is a good article that addresses some of your other questions:
http://www.cider.org.uk/part3.htm
 
Thanks for your reply.

I think might just leave the first batch as it is and concentrate on getting the second lot right. Just a thought on this though, I was was to add a few liters of shop bought juice to reduce the air space, would that help?

Unfortunately I can't freeze the apples as I have no space in my freezer, but what about cooking them before juicing? I can do large batches in a big pot of water and then they should be nice and soft when they come out. Not heard of this in cider making, but perhaps has a double purpose as it will help with sanitation (and possibly pasteurization?)

I'll read the article later, lots to take in!
 
A good cheesecloth or muslin sub is Pantyhose .its cheap strains very fine and easy to wash or toss
 
Thanks, I have a proper straining bag to use with the press now.

I've taken the first batch out of the 5 gallon fermenter and put it into 2 10 liter carboys, topping up with store bought apple juice (100% from concentrate) to reduce the head space. it's now fizzing & bubbling away at quite a rate.

I took a SG rating before doing this, now at 1.048 from 1.052 when the yeast went in on Tuesday. Is that about right at this stage?
 
Also, be aware, since you added more juice, fermenting will be picking back up again.

To top back up, next time reserve some juice from your initial press for this, then add later.

I added store bought to one of my ciders and the taste went South.
 
I want to try something similar you but havent yet. I saw a good video in YouTube for scrumpy cider. Think it was by brewbitz

Good luck in round 2 let us know how it goes
 
It’s now nine days since I pitched the yeast on the first batch. Fermentation seems to have slowed right down or maybe finished. No visible fizzing or airlock activity, a thick layer of sediment has formed at the bottom of the carboy and the cider is beginning to clear (but is still quite opaque).

I forgot to mention that I added some sugar to the juice, not sure if this speeds up fermentation or if it will take longer as there more sugar for the yeast to eat? It’s been very warm here this last couple of weeks, over 25c some days, so that might have sped things up, though I realise that it can have a detrimental effect on the taste.

I don’t want to remove the airlocks until absolutely necessary, but wonder if it’s time to do another hydrometer test and think about bottling? I wasn’t really planning on racking off for secondary fermentation unless the cider needs more work on it to make it palatable!
 
Hi paddyb. You are ahead of me, so I am reading your updates with interest.

What kind of yeast did you use, wine or beer? I made my test batches with wine yeast but have decided to use Nottingham for my big batch. I read that wine yeast have not been selected for quick turn around times the way beer yeast have been and so take longer to clean up. Not sure if that is true or not, but in case it is....

Given your >25C temps, might leaving the cider on the yeast for another couple of weeks help clean the flavour up a bit? I suppose at that time you could see if you need to rack to secondary and let it bulk age longer, or if it is ready to bottle.

I want my cider to be semi-sweet. Still haven't decided on what method to use to achieve that: cold crashing before it ferments out, or letting it ferment out and then back sweetening with reserved juice? Decisions, decisions. In either case, since I am bottling and not kegging, I'll have to knock the yeast out with chemicals or heat.

Cheers.

Christina.
 
I may be ahead of you time wise, but you obviously have a lot more home brew experience than me!

12hrs have passed since my last post and its cleared some more, taking on a lovely orange/pink colour and becoming more translucent.

I used Munstons GV10 Light Sparkling Wine yeast, which the local brew shop recommended. For the second batch I’m trying Youngs Cider Yeast.

I’m not sure about the pros & cons of secondary ageing vs bottle ageing? Is it that if I syphon into secondary I can let more sediment filter out before bottling?

Once bottled, I’m happy to leave most of them for several moths before drinking, though I do have a significant birthday bash coming up in three weeks time…

Unlike you, I haven’t got a plan as to how this will turn out, but happy to take any advice on where to go from here.
 
Here a pic of my cider now:

The front two carboys (actually cheap 2 gallon water carriers from Poundland I modified to include an airlock and grommet) are the first batch, now 11 days in. The two at the back are last weekends batch, 5 days since pitching yeast. As an experiment I added honey and grated ginger to the small bottle of leftover juice, might add some more spices during secondary and have it at Christmas time.

I’ve been putting a wet towel over them this last few days to keep them cool, but the weather is on the turn now anyway. Do you think I should leave first batch as it is for another week or two? Is the amount of headspace ok for this?
 
Hi paddyb. Once active fermentation is over you want to have a minimal exposure to air, which is why carboys have a narrow neck, and why folks top up to within a inch of the bung. With a square vessel it would be hard to reduce the surface area very much.

Regarding racking, my own practice is to rack once, very carefully, to get it off any apple matter that may have made it into the juice, which you don't want to start rotting, and also get it off of the bulk of the yeast. Some cider-makers will keep racking until the yeast stops throwing lees, but that requires adding Campden tablets to reduce oxidation.

Since you apparently don't own carboys (at this stage anyway) it might be best to bottle it at the three week point or so, for the above reasons, and also to get it out of plastic. Aging should be done in glass. ;)

Just saw the pic you posted earlier of your cider press. Nice. Looks like you intend to make a lot of cider so it would be worth it to get some glass carboys, of various sizes. Second-hand is fine. Just be careful not to drop them.

Cheers.
 
Thanks ukelule01

I have two plastic carboys, one has my second batch in it, the other is spare at the moment. As I had so much juice, I though I’d be clever and make my own and just buy airlocks & grommets, but I can understand now why my home made ones aren’t the best solution once primary is over.

Do you reckon it is best for me to get some proper carboys (do they need to be glass?) and rack off asap, or leave as it is, wait another week and bottle?

Or I could reduce head space some more in the home mades by adding more shop brought juice, and possibly some campden tablets? That would require removing the airlocks though, which doesn’t sound like a good idea if there is already too much surface area headspace, and presumably stirring, so I'd need to wait for it all to settle again?

Most of the lees seems to have settled out, just one or two tiny bits floating around and some sticking to the side of the container at the surface.
 
Yes, racking into glass carboys would be best if you are going to bulk age for any length of time. My understanding is that plastic is not as good as glass. The next best option might be to leave it alone and bottle in a week, and let it age there. Again, use glass bottles and not PET.

I would not add more juice as that will kick off another round of fermentation and delay when you can rack or bottle it.

As I mentioned it is a good idea to top up your glass carboy after transfer to within an inch of the bung. You can use water but that will dilute your cider, which might be okay if you added extra sugar at the beginning....If you didn't, finished cider from a previous batch is another option.

I am starting to harvest some earlier varieties. I will keep them in the fridge until later varieties are ready too and then sweat the all at the same time.

Cheers.
 
Damn it, just bought a load of plastic PET bottles!

There’s nowhere locally I can buy glass carboys until the weekend. I can buy online, but still wouldn’t receive them until Thursday. So…

I can order some glass bottles for weds/thurs and either bottle then (that’s over two weeks since the yeast was added) or leave it is it is for a few more days and bottle at the weekend / next week.

Or

I can immediately rack the cider to other plastic containers, filling right to the top to reduce air and leave for another week before bottling.

Once bottled, I’m happy to leave (most of it!) to condition for as long as it needs.

What do you think is the best option?

Am keeping it cool now with a wet towel, that’s correct for this stage isn’t it?
 
Just orderd some glass bottles and will send the PET bottles back (good ol Amazon!).

Is the idea with secondary fermentation when bottle conditioning mainly to get it to clear to reduce sediment in the bottles? Am I right in thinking that secondary fermentation doesn’t usually involve any actual fermentation (think I read that somewhere)?

Not that bothered about making particularly clear cider (or carbonation for that matter). I’m not a big cider drinker, but would normally go for a cloudy one anyway.

Bottles arrive Wednesday, perhaps I could try bottling one container from my first batch and wait a bit longer before opening the other one?

Second batch now starting to clear.
 
Hi again. As I understand it, transferring to secondary is to get the cider off of most of the yeast, to avoid autolysis. If you are only leaving it in the primary for one month or less, then the risk of autolysis is low, although it does vary by yeast. Some cider-makers like to bulk condition in secondary (glass carboy) for a long time, until it is ready to drink. I am not 100% sure on all the benefits of this, but I think that the flavour matures faster than in small bottles, and yes, it also becomes clearer.

If you are going to let it age more than six months, either in a carboy or in bottles, then it is a good idea to dose with Campden tablets at transfer, to prevent staling and spoilage. If you are going to have it all drunk up by then, then Campden tablets are not necessary. Maybe you could try one batch with and one without Campden tablets; save the one with Campden tablets for aging.

I tend to not dose with Campden tablets and drink it up before it gets to six months.

Cheers.
 
Thanks for your help with this. I’ll wait until the weekend, see if I can get some glass carboys then siphon some off into new containers, bottle some and maybe leave some of it as it is for a bit longer.

Do I put one Campden tablet in each bottle for ageing? If I'm leaving in secondary for a while, should I add tablets at that point?
 
After a brief mold scare (detailed in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=591151) I’ve now racked to four carboys of different sizes to reduce head room. I messed up a bit with the syphoning, so a fair bit of lees got into a couple of them and I need to let it settle out again.

SG is now 1.000 and a pretty clear yellow colour in the glass (in the batch that didn’t have any lees.)

I had a taste, it was very dry, quite a bit like white wine, but a bit sharp & harsh (sorry, don’t really know correct terminology yet). I mixed a bit of sugar in and it was a lot more palatable, it brought out the apple flavour more.

How is this likely to improve with ageing? I normally like cider quite dry, but should I consider back sweetening? Is there anything else I can do at this stage to change the taste?
 
Hi Paddy,

Yes, 1.000 is very dry. I am not a fan of dry ciders. I have tried back sweetening ciders that got to 1.000 with xylitol, which is a natural unfermentable sugar you can buy in the health food section of grocery stores, at 8gm/L, but I still did not like them. Don't think I used enough. I have also tried to bottle before the cider fermented completely dry, then let it carb, then refrigerated to prevent over-carbonation, but that did not go as planned. I wanted to catch and bottle it at 1.020, let it carb up, are refrigerate at a gravity of 1.015 or so, but it had already fermented down to 1.010 by the time I bottled, so my final cider was still pretty dry. I think I am going to give up on chasing a carbonated semi-sweet cider.

Next time what I am going to do is use beer yeast, let it ferment out, kill the yeast with chemicals or pasteurization, then back sweeten with fresh sweet cider. This will dilute the ABV. If you plan ahead you can boost your OG with sugar before fermentation to compensate for the later dilution, or you could boost it with vodka post fermentation. The later option still open to you at this point, if you are willing to settle for a still product. I have a feeling that a still product back sweetened with sweet cider is nicer than a carbonated product back sweetened with xylitol or Splenda.

You could also steep cinnamon sticks in a cup of hot water or strong black tea (for tannins) X20 minutes, and add that.

Let us know what you end up doing. Cheers!
 
Thanks both.

I did add some sugar, the starting SG was 1052 (for this batch), which, if I understand it correctly gives me an ABV of 6.83, so I’m not fussed about the alcohol content being lowered if I have to dilute with anything.

I’m not sure where I can buy FAJC, but wouldn’t I still need to add sulphate with this to stop it fermenting? How does this differ from using shop bought AJ from concentrate? I can buy Xylitol online, but it seems to have mixed reviews, can cause stomach problems?

Happy to add some strong black tea if that will help? Also cinnamon, I was thinking of making a small batch into a spiced Christmas cider. I already have a small sample that I added ginger to before fermenting, and when I was looking for spices in the supermarket, I came across some bags of mulled cider spice, with cinnamon, orange peel, nutmeg and cloves. Would it be worth adding that to the tea whiles it’s brewing and adding the resulting spicy tea to the cider in secondary/bottles? How much tea /spice per gallon is recommended?

And finally, how much is the flavour likely to change if I just leave it as it is and let it condition in the bottle?

Sorry, loads of questions!
 
I’m going to start bottling the first batch tomorrow. I’ve ordered some Xyliol, so will try some with that added, will also back sweeten some and leave others dry. Quite a few permeations of all these!

When back sweetening, can I just add the sugar to the bottles as I fill them? Do I need to shake/stir them once capped?

Same question for Xyloil and also if I add to a sweetness I like before bottling, how much will this change after conditioning (sweeter/dryer etc)?
 
Hi Paddy. Not sure what you mean when you say, "When back sweetening, can I just add the sugar to the bottles as I fill them? Do I need to shake/stir them once capped?" Just to be clear, you can't use sugar for back sweetening if the yeast are still alive.

The sweetness of the xylitol will not ferment away; it will be the same as before bottling, but perhaps masked a bit by the bite of carbonation. The sweetness of the priming sugar will go away completely; the sugar will be converted to CO2 (and water) and that is what will carbonate your bottles.

If you are using xylitol for sweetening, you should also add sugar for carbonation, that is if you want carbonation.

To answer your question, yes, you can add the priming sugar directly to the bottles. It is not necessary to shake or stir them once capped. But since yeast don't ferment xylitol I am not sure what would happen if you tried adding it directly to the bottles. I don't think it would dissolve very well. Personally, I boil the xylitol and priming sugar together in a bit of water and add that to the bottling bucket and give it a stir. That is called bulk priming. That might be a bit difficult for you this time around because you don't know yet how much xylitol you like, so for this time only boil the xylitol and add to the bottling bucket, and add to priming sugar to each individual bottle. No need to shake or stir them after capping.

Regarding xylitol and diarrhea, I have never had any problems, but I drink moderately. If you drink a large amount it might give you loose bowels.

FAJC is just frozen apple juice concentrate from the grocery store. It has not been pasteurized and may contain bacterial that resist freezing and can spoil your cider. If you use it, it should be pasteurized. You can use it for back sweetening if you have killed your yeast and want a still product, same as using fresh apple cider.

Note, Campden tablets alone will not kill yeast; it only stuns them for a period of time. You have to use it in combination with potassium sorbate it you want to pasteurize chemically, for a still product.

Cheers!
 
Sorry, I meant Xyliol when back sweetening.

I’ve now bottled up the first gallon. I put some Xyliol sweetened tea in some, but think I over did it on the tea, there’s quite a strong taste of it.

The Cider actually tastes quite thin, like its been watered down. Is this likely to change as it matures?

I think it’s flavour rather than sweetness that’s the issue here. I seem to remember something about adding apple flavouring or extract, any ideas what might work? As I understand it, fajc will only work if I add campden first?
 
Thanks. Is apple flavour concentrate fermentable, or can I use it without campden & sorbate?
 
I usually use it when bottle carbonating, so if there's any sugar in it it just adds to my priming sugar. But at only 1/4 tsp per gallon it's insignificant anyway.

Just be aware that it's incredibly concentrated - more is not better. Too much and you get a jolly rancher kind of apple taste. That small bottle will flavor about 50 gallons. It really works though to bring back some apple when your cider is bland.
 
Thanks Dave

I don’t know if I can get that exact brand here in the UK, but I’ll see if I can find something similar.

Just a thought, could I add some shop brought apple juice from concentrate to back sweeten, would that also improve the taste (not bothered about alcohol content being lowered)? What would be the maximum amount I could add per bottle without the risk of them exploding?

I haven’t been able to find concentrated AJ anywhere, but did find some pear & apple spread made from 100% concentrate, though it note that the manufacturing process involves boiling, so that might give it too much of a cooked apple taste:

http://www.prewetts.co.uk/products/fruit-spreads.html
 
Sorry, in the above I meant add apple juice to carbonate, not back sweeten.
 

Similar threads

O
Advice for pressing: cleaning and mashing, does it matter if apples brown or aren't sterilized?
Replies
10
Views
2K
beren
beren
adnanthemadman
First time using fresh pressed apples
Replies
5
Views
1K
adnanthemadman
adnanthemadman
tcorsetti
Cloudy, yellow cider....Is it contaminated?
Replies
3
Views
1K
Hoppy2bmerry
Hoppy2bmerry
M
Cider not bubbling even after re-pitching yeast
Replies
7
Views
1K
DBhomebrew
DBhomebrew
B
Apple cider / wine mix
Replies
12
Views
2K
bitterbad
B
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top