Making a yeast starter for an Imperial stout from one pack of London Ale 1028 what is enough?

[Garage12brewing]

Hi guys,

I would like to know if its good to follow the Beersmith requirements for my starter. It tells me that I need 358 billions cells. To get this amount of cell I need to do a 1.9L starter

My real question is... should I take the yeast from this starter and put it into another +or-2L starter ? So make a double starter or I am ok with 358 billions cell ?

The OG will be around 1.100 on a 5 gallons batch.

Thanks for the help !

 

[VikeMan]

Personally, I pitch big stouts at lager-like rates (and low-ish ferm temps), which for your recipe would be about 675B cells. But 358B would certainly get the job done.

 

[IslandLizard]

I too would pitch more if you can. Definitely err on the higher side.
IOW, don't be skimpy on yeast pitches in large beers, and make sure they are healthy (vital) as can be.

Here's my favorite yeast pitch calculator:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

How do you plan to oxygenate (or aerate) the wort?
Good wort oxygenation is as important as a good pitch, especially with high gravity beers.

You also need good steady ferm temp control. A drop in temp at the wrong time can stall the fermentation.

 

[IslandLizard]

My real question is... should I take the yeast from this starter and put it into another +or-2L starter ? So make a double starter or I am ok with 358 billions cell ?

Using the yeast calc I linked to above, you'll see that putting 358 billion cells into another 2 liter of starter wort won't grow much. The inoculation rate is way too high.

Instead, if you want to grow more cells after the first starter, you need use (harvest) around 60 billion cells from that slurry to grow another 300 billion cells. Pitch those 2 together, for a total pitch of around 665 billion cells:

~300 (from round 1) + ~365 (from round 2)​

 

[kmarkstevens]

Have you thought about doing a simple ordinary bitter/cream ale first of maybe 1040 OG, siphon it off, and then ferment your Imperial Stout on top of the lees? I guarantee it will be a BIG pitch and take off like a rocket! You get a first batch of low octane beer and then your RIS should really go gang busters, what's not to like?

I picked up the fast ferment 3 gallon fermenter specifically for doing half batches and harvesting yeast. I typically get about half a pint of yeast per batch and fill 4-5 centrifuge tubes with about 25cc yeast each. One tube is a decent pitch for a 1040 OG beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

@kmarkstevens ^
Such a good idea. I always seem to forget to mention that option. Plus you get 2 beers out of it, drink the first one while the 2nd, the high gravity one, ferments and matures.

 

[hottpeper13]

Putting a Belgian Blonde together for starter fluid , and repitching onto a Tripple. And who doesn't want a Belgian Blonde?

 

[Garage12brewing]

I too would pitch more if you can. Definitely err on the higher side.
IOW, don't be skimpy on yeast pitches in large beers, and make sure they are healthy (vital) as can be.

Here's my favorite yeast pitch calculator:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

How do you plan to oxygenate (or aerate) the wort?
Good wort oxygenation is as important as a good pitch, especially with high gravity beers.

You also need good steady ferm temp control. A drop in temp at the wrong time can stall the fermentation.

Yes I will oxygenate with my aquarium pump for about an hour. Thanks for the help.

 

[Garage12brewing]

Using the yeast calc I linked to above, you'll see that putting 358 billion cells into another 2 liter of starter wort won't grow much. The inoculation rate is way too high.

Instead, if you want to grow more cells after the first starter, you need use (harvest) around 60 billion cells from that slurry to grow another 300 billion cells. Pitch those 2 together, for a total pitch of around 665 billion cells:

~300 (from round 1) + ~365 (from round 2)​

Got it ! That was the kind of information I was searching for. That makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks my friend

 

[Garage12brewing]

Have you thought about doing a simple ordinary bitter/cream ale first of maybe 1040 OG, siphon it off, and then ferment your Imperial Stout on top of the lees? I guarantee it will be a BIG pitch and take off like a rocket! You get a first batch of low octane beer and then your RIS should really go gang busters, what's not to like?

I picked up the fast ferment 3 gallon fermenter specifically for doing half batches and harvesting yeast. I typically get about half a pint of yeast per batch and fill 4-5 centrifuge tubes with about 25cc yeast each. One tube is a decent pitch for a 1040 OG beer.

I do have a double IPA fermenting right now ( day 6 now ) but I will dry hop it so the yeast slurry in my conical will be kind of dirty with all this hop... The yeast is Amrrican ale 1056 so could be good for my RIS. I would need to wash it... I could keep my London 1028 to brew a brown Ale that was my my to do list lol

 

[RM-MN]

I do have a double IPA fermenting right now ( day 6 now ) but I will dry hop it so the yeast slurry in my conical will be kind of dirty with all this hop... The yeast is Amrrican ale 1056 so could be good for my RIS. I would need to wash it... I could keep my London 1028 to brew a brown Ale that was my my to do list lol

Can you drop the yeast slurry into a jar before you add all the dry hops?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes I will oxygenate with my aquarium pump for about an hour. Thanks for the help.

Using a stainless aeration stone?

Since the aquarium pump uses air, it's called aeration. Oxygenation is when using pure oxygen.

The maximum level of dissolved oxygen (DO) you can achieve using air is 6-8 ppm. The yeast in high gravity beers needs more than that, 16 ppm at least.
Aerating for an hour before pitching yeast is good. I would aerate again, 2-3 times for an hour, every 4 hours after that or until you see signs of fermentation, e.g., foam formation on the surface before you aerate, or steady bubbling in the airlock. Once you see that, do not aerate anymore.

Once fermentation has started, no more air/oxygen should be added as it contributes to oxidation from there on, which is always unwanted.

 

[IslandLizard]

I do have a double IPA fermenting right now

It's generally not recommended reusing yeast from high gravity fermentations, say above 1.060-1.080 OG. There's some leeway, but the higher the alcohol level the less healthy the yeast becomes. So reusing yeast from smaller beers 1.030-1.050 would be a better approach. I've often repitched yeast from 1.065 beers, and successfully, but always made a vitality starter before repitching.

Also watch out for carryover of hop character from hoppy beers into not so hoppy beers. So if you have a load of dry hops (e.g., IPA) mixed in with the yeast slurry, it will certainly be noticeable in lower hopped beers, such as a Blonde or Tripel.
You could try rinsing the yeast, sure, just use good sanitation. Yeast washing is a related but whole different process, involving an acid.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@kmarkstevens ^
Such a good idea. I always seem to forget to mention that option. Plus you get 2 beers out of it, drink the first one while the 2nd, the high gravity one, ferments and matures.

Or if you're efficient (lazy) like me, just kegged a 1035OG bitter tonight, have an Irish Stout boiling right this minute, and am out of clean fermenters. Hmmm, guess I'm pitching the Stout onto the West Yorkshire yeast cake in the morning....

4 fermenters (20L speidel, 30L speidel, 6.5 gallon big mouth & 3 gallon fast ferment) just never seem quite enough...

 

[kmarkstevens]

quick update. 1040 OG Irish dry stout on top of the W Yorkie yeast cake brought was down to 1016 24-hour later, so into the keg to spund away...Probably my fastest fermenter to keg ever.

 

[Garage12brewing]

Using a stainless aeration stone?

Since the aquarium pump uses air, it's called aeration. Oxygenation is when using pure oxygen.

The maximum level of dissolved oxygen (DO) you can achieve using air is 6-8 ppm. The yeast in high gravity beers needs more than that, 16 ppm at least.
Aerating for an hour before pitching yeast is good. I would aerate again, 2-3 times for an hour, every 4 hours after that or until you see signs of fermentation, e.g., foam formation on the surface before you aerate, or steady bubbling in the airlock. Once you see that, do not aerate anymore.

Once fermentation has started, no more air/oxygen should be added as it contributes to oxidation from there on, which is always unwanted.

Yeah sorry, I know the difference. I used the wrong term. How would you aerate in the fermenter for that long ? You would let the lid Of the fermenter open ? I might get an oxygenation setup soon...

 

[IslandLizard]

Just leave the lid ajar, so dust and bugs don't drop into your wort/beer. Or stick the air hose through the airlock hole, and close the lid.

Although using an O2 setup is quicker and somewhat easier, taking only a few minutes to get around 8-12 ppm (@1/4 l/m for 4 minutes), I wanted to show you a way using plain air for longer to yield a similar amount of O2, and yeast growth. It's just not all there at one time, which IMO, makes no difference as long as the yeast remains in lag phase, where it propagates, and ferments very little.

Be aware, the valve assembly on those little red O2 tanks tends to leak, very slowly. So triple check for any leaks or simply disconnect the valve assembly from the tank before storing away.

 

[Garage12brewing]

It's generally not recommended reusing yeast from high gravity fermentations, say above 1.060-1.080 OG. There's some leeway, but the higher the alcohol level the less healthy the yeast becomes. So reusing yeast from smaller beers 1.030-1.050 would be a better approach. I've often repitched yeast from 1.065 beers, and successfully, but always made a vitality starter before repitching.

Also watch out for carryover of hop character from hoppy beers into not so hoppy beers. So if you have a load of dry hops (e.g., IPA) mixed in with the yeast slurry, it will certainly be noticeable in lower hopped beers, such as a Blonde or Tripel.
You could try rinsing the yeast, sure, just use good sanitation. Yeast washing is a related but whole different process, involving an acid.

Ok SO.... I rinsed the American Ale 1056 yeast that was in my conical from a 10 gallons batch. I divided the rinsed yeast into two 1/2 gallon clear growler. The yeast color is pretty clean so should be good. Its from my Double IPA... I would not use it to do a delicate beer but for a RIS I should be good .

I will do a starter tommorow with this yeast. After two days I will take some of this starter and do another 2L starter... these two starter will be the yeast for my RIS that I plan to do this coming sunday.

Does this plan makes sense ?

I will keep my London Ale 1028 for a Brown Ale that is on my ''to do '' list....

Thanks guys !

 

[IslandLizard]

Does this plan makes sense ?

As long as you can pitch the required amount of healthy, viable cells it should work.
And aerate/oxygenate the wort like crazy. Twice.

Here's another good yeast calculator:
Mr. Malty
The "Pitch from slurry" tab is as unique as it's an eyeopener, a handy tool to estimate viable cells in yeast slurries.

Just click through the "Flash" warning. It should still work, at least till the end of the year.

 

[Garage12brewing]

As long as you can pitch the required amount of healthy, viable cells it should work.
And aerate/oxygenate the wort like crazy. Twice.

Here's another good yeast calculator:
Mr. Malty
The "Pitch from slurry" tab is as unique as it's an eyeopener, a handy tool to estimate viable cells in yeast slurries.

Just click through the "Flash" warning. It should still work, at least till the end of the year.

I like the part : Aerate LIKE CRAZY ! TWICE !

I will !!!

Thanks... cant wait to taste this beer in about 4months...

 

[Garage12brewing]

so I aerated my wort for an hour and a half... waited an hour... then aerated for another hour and a half. Fermentation started good at 18C controlled temp. and after 6 days went from 1.098 to 1.025 so very happy with the results so far. The bubbling was much slower I raised the temperature to 20C so I expect to finish around 1.019... very happy that I used the yeast from my double IPA... still have 1056 yeast from that double IP in my fridge for futur brew.

Now I will leave the RIS in this fermenter for about a month and then bottle with CBC-1 yeast for bottle condition for at least 4 months ! Maybe will open a bottle for Christmas...