Making a "Frosting" flavor...

[KyleWolf]

So, with a big run recently (at least in my neck of the woods) of stouts brewed with horchata flavors (vanilla and cinnamon mostly), in combination with some dessert beers that have phenomenal "dessert" character (Southern Tier Creme Brulee Stout) and Terrapin's Cinnamon roll'd wake'n'bake stout, this is a natural discussion post/experimental idea.

I am wanting to come up with a way to get a real "frosting" or sterotypical "Birthday cake ice cream" flavor into a beer (primarily for a aforementioned dessert style stout). I want it to give not just the vanilla flavor, but also that specific "frosting savoriness" that I find to be unique to say, good cinnamon roll frosting.

After some initial research, I am thinking that using powdered sugar may be an interesting method. I know that powdered sugar has additional ingredients other than sugar (such as corn starch) that in general would be undesirable in beer. However, if a thicker mouthfeel is desired (such as in a dessert stout), I think the cornstarch may help. I think making a "simple frosting" using powdered sugar, lactose, and water and adding it at kegging could give that sweet frosting like quality. The vanilla flavor from the frosting would come from vanilla beans added in secondary.

Before I get started with some experiments (like first off, finding out the ppg of powdered sugar), I wanted to get some thoughts on the matter and see if anyone had any a) thoughts on the process I am suggesting, b) alternatives, and/or c) experience with trying to make this happen already. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated! Thanks.

Kyle

 

[drainbamage]

I'm not sure how the powder sugar mixture would turn out (I don't know what else is in there and how it would affect things) but a combination of lactose and vanilla would be a good start. You're going to want some residual sugars for the mouthfeel.

 

[IslandLizard]

Regarding powdered sugar, I find it has a slight perfumy, flowery (floral) flavor. Not sure what causes it, but so far I've traced it in every powdered sugar I've tasted.

Vanilla and diacetyl come to mind when I think of cake frosting. Now intentionally creating diacetyl in those quantities may prove to be actually quite difficult, even more so than preventing it.

Forgot to say, the sugar component in powdered sugar will ferment out of course, unless you neutralize the yeast first. Would be interesting to taste what's leftover after it ferments out. I've added a couple tablespoons of wheat flour to my Wits to create "permanent" hazyness. That flour settles out over time, in a keg, so you need to roll it ever week or so. I predict corn starch to behave similarly.

 

[KyleWolf]

In general, powdered sugar is normally around 99-96% sugar and 1-4% corn starch.

 

[Brettomomyces]

Well, there's an easy way. Add at packaging, but you could try it out first dosing small amounts into a glass.

 

[slym2none]

A good frosting is buttercream. You need butter flavour, or as mentioned above, just some diacetyl, as well.

 

[KyleWolf]

Well, there's an easy way. Add at packaging, but you could try it out first dosing small amounts into a glass.

I have done this before with coffee liquor into imperial stouts. It doesn't do well just mixing in a glass, it really needs time to meld. I also wasn't particularly impressed with the adding of flavored liquor. Admittedly, while I do not partake in much flavored vodka (with the exception of my homemade bacon vodka for Bloody Marys), I don't think it will really give the mouthfeel I am looking for. But as you said, it is a quick and easy method for experimenting.

 

[KyleWolf]

A good frosting is buttercream. You need butter flavour, or as mentioned above, just some diacetyl, as well.

I will have to pick some ingredients up and do a few experiments. I am guess I would need at least 1lb of powdered sugar for a 5gal batch ya think? Or since it won't be fermented (much/very quickly) maybe I wouldn't need a lot to get the flavor? Oh I do love experiments.

 

[Brettomomyces]

For mouthfeel definitely not, lactose or dextrin malts would help a lot there. I'm just not sure how the cornstarch is going to hold up long term, but as you said this is an experiment. I might consider adding the sugar during primary to retain as much of the flavor as possible.

If you do add it during the boil though, take some wort off and mix it in to the powdered sugar separately and pour the solution in. If you drop 1# of powdered sugar right into boiling wort it's going to clump terribly.

but also that specific "frosting savoriness" that I find to be unique to say, good cinnamon roll frosting.

Speaking to this, part of that savory flavor is the cream cheese that's used in cinnamon roll frosting, so there is another element to consider if you're going after that specific flavor.

 

[KyleWolf]

For mouthfeel definitely not, lactose or dextrin malts would help a lot there. I'm just not sure how the cornstarch is going to hold up long term, but as you said this is an experiment. I might consider adding the sugar during primary to retain as much of the flavor as possible.

If you do add it during the boil though, take some wort off and mix it in to the powdered sugar separately and pour the solution in. If you drop 1# of powdered sugar right into boiling wort it's going to clump terribly.

I would be adding the powdered sugar at kegging, not during the boil. I agree, during the boil would be a horrible idea.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I would be adding the powdered sugar at kegging, not during the boil. I agree, during the boil would be a horrible idea.

Sorry I ninja edited that last post...

Are you going to boil the powdered sugar in something first? It needs to be gelatinized much like a roux to add any thickening power, rule of thumb is boil it for about a minute.

 

[KyleWolf]

Sorry I ninja edited that last post...

Are you going to boil the powdered sugar in something first? It needs to be gelatinized much like a roux to add any thickening power, rule of thumb is boil it for about a minute.

I was going to make it into something like a syrup. Probably use a 2:1 ratio of powdered sugar to lactose, then add in some vanilla extract and butter extract with a bit of water. Bring to a boil, cool, and then add to the keg.

 

[blizz81]

One thought: http://www.capellaflavors.com/

 

[slym2none]

 

[Brettomomyces]

One thought: http://www.capellaflavors.com/

I am both awed and slightly terrified by that huge list. They have two flavors just for yogurt

 

[blizz81]

I'll say I've used their drops in two beers and the contribution is more towards aroma than flavor. One was a Snickers milk stout, that had more flavor but after a few months aged it was kinda gone. The other was an eggnog milk stout, mostly aroma there. Tried 160 drops of the Snickers first, 200 seemed better (~5gal batches). I think we did 200 of the eggnog too.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I'll say I've used their drops in two beers and the contribution is more towards aroma than flavor. One was a Snickers milk stout, that had more flavor but after a few months aged it was kinda gone. The other was an eggnog milk stout, mostly aroma there. Tried 160 drops of the Snickers first, 200 seemed better (~5gal batches). I think we did 200 of the eggnog too.

How many drops do you get for those little guys?

 

[KyleWolf]

I think I will stay away from the drops if I can but they sound like a great second option. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Brettomomyces]

I just thought of an idea for a Tsaziki Wit using the cucumber and greek yogurt drops. I kinda wanna throw up though.

 

[blizz81]

How many drops do you get for those little guys?

I'd estimate somewhere around 500-550 drops per bottle?


Shipping sucks.