Low Enzymatic/Cold Mash/Low alcohol beer

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So, between concalls today, I did a cold steep mash (stirred my brew pot frequently to avoid scorching on the stove), filtered out the egg drop soup wort and hops into a 2.5 gallon keg, put on the spunding valve, swapped out to the floating dip tube, pitched 34/70 yeast, and should be able to drink in a few days. Will update how that turns out.
 
beersk said:
Like the last batch it has a sort of grain bitterness or astringency to it as noted by some members of my homebrew club. And it also has the same distinct grain character, almost like raw grain character.
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For the two batches I mentioned in #104, I took hydrometer measurements & sampled the beer. FWIW, I didn't get the raw grain character that you mentioned - the "20L" batch was sweet (as expected); the "Opal 22" batch wasn't as sweet. As part of bottling, I usually sample what left in the auto-siphon - so I may have some better descriptors in the near future.
 
I am in the middle of starting my hot mash experiment. I just mashed 2.5# golden promise at 185F for 30 minutes, now steeping 1/2# Crystal 60 at 154f (not sure if the C60 will have off flavors if steeped at 185F, and will play with this later if v1 turns out well), and then do a 30 minute boil with 20gr of EKG and 5gr at flame out for ~BU/GU = 0.80. Target 1025 OG

Will also do a cold mash equivalent, as well as a standard 154F boil for comparison. Will report back.
 
kmarkstevens said:
I am in the middle of starting my hot mash experiment.
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Can you say more about what you are looking for with your experiment and side-by-side tasting?

kmarkstevens said:
I just mashed 2.5# golden promise at 185F for 30 minutes, now steeping 1/2# Crystal 60 at 154f (not sure if the C60 will have off flavors if steeped at 185F, and will play with this later if v1 turns out well),
Click to expand...

With regard to mashing vs steeping of crystal malts, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/testing-fermentability-of-crystal-malt.208361/ (from back in 2010) may be interesting.
 
Simple comparison of all three.
1. Hot mash with Golden Promise and 1/2# crystal. OG = 1025, pitched Windsor and ~3 gallons in the fermenter. BU/GU ratio is about .8 based on a calculator. This aligns to the hot mash guidelines.
2. Do a 154F mash with Golden Promise and 1/2# crystal. Will dilute until OG = 1025 and use Windsor. Will do this in a day or two.
3. Cold steep with Golden Promise, and then mash 158F with 1/2# crystal. Not sure if I should target OG = 1025, or a OG = 1015 or 1010 with Windsor. I don't see the point of a cold steep and an OG of 1025, but maybe should do that just to have all three with the same yeast and same OG. Thoughts?
 
kmarkstevens said:
Simple comparison of all three.
1. Hot mash with Golden Promise and 1/2# crystal. OG = 1025, pitched Windsor and ~3 gallons in the fermenter. BU/GU ratio is about .8 based on a calculator. This aligns to the hot mash guidelines.
2. Do a 154F mash with Golden Promise and 1/2# crystal. Will dilute until OG = 1025 and use Windsor. Will do this in a day or two.
3. Cold steep with Golden Promise, and then mash 158F with 1/2# crystal. Not sure if I should target OG = 1025, or a OG = 1015 or 1010 with Windsor. I don't see the point of a cold steep and an OG of 1025, but maybe should do that just to have all three with the same yeast and same OG. Thoughts?
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This ist tough to compare, as the cold steep theoretically benefits from the bigger amount of grain used, while not extracting the same amount of sugar.

So I would aim for all three just for the "normal" og which each version would need to work best to create a lower abv beer. At the end the versions all have so fundamentally different base methods, that imho, it is not possible to find a shared number that would make sense to all.
 
according to post #91, you're trying to make soda pop beer? if you work it the opposite direction, adding gluco would have less calories.....i have no idea why anyone would want higher calorie beer that has no effect.....
 
bracconiere said:
according to post #91, you're trying to make soda pop beer? if you work it the opposite direction, adding gluco would have less calories.....i have no idea why anyone would want higher calorie beer that has no effect.....
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You also don't want it to taste like wort like Clausthaler does. Yuck.
 
beersk said:
You also don't want it to taste like wort like Clausthaler does. Yuck.
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True dat! In that vein, I just tried the Heineken Zero. It's pretty close to regular Heineken (which isn't terrible for a mass market lager, and don't try to tell me the Heineken in Amsterdam is soooooo much better 'cause it's not to my palate). If I went to purgatory, and couldn't have alcohol, I would probably keep Heineken zero in the fridge.

@bracconiere I certainly don't want soda pop beer, but I have been brewing 2-4% ABV beers for many years now with tasty results. So, just playing with the cold steep (color me skeptical this will result in a superior light beer), and in the middle of the hot mash (185F) experiments. Hoping that these may be added to the low ABV arsenal but my bar is they need to taste at least as good as my 2% or why bother?
 
Dang it, ate my post.

6 days ago, I
  1. steeped 2# vienna and 2# munich overnight in the fridge
  2. poured off all the liquid and mashed liquid only at 158F for 30 minutes
  3. then mashed 1/2# carabohemia for 30 more minutes (prolly should combine steps 2 and 3)
  4. boiled 30 minutes with 20 gr of tettnang (4.6) and 5 gr tettnang at flame out
  5. let cool overnight
  6. added boiled cooled water to bring the OG down to 1012
  7. filled up a 2.5 gallon keg, added a spunding valve, inserted a floating dip tube, pitch 34/70 lager yeast, set it in the garage with 40-60F ambient temperature
  8. last night put it in the fridge with just natural carbonation
  9. not sure what FG is. Probably around 1002 based on failed earlier experiments
  10. tapped it this evening.
Taste was a bit watery with some vegetal overtones (noticeable but not nasty). Head retention was ok (photo around 5 minutes after pouring). It's drinkable but certainly not noteworthy excepting the ultra low gravity.

I have a second cold mash as well as a 1022 OG regular mash as a control that are ready to bottle and compare.

In addition, in the fermenter is a ordinary bitter hot mash (1025 OG, and a similar bitter mashed at 158F with 1028 OG as a control. I am planning this weekend to also do a cold mash with similar grain bill, and will do a second running with 1/2# of 6-row.

Anyhoo, here is my cold mash, naturally carbonated experiment:
cold mash spund.jpg
 
That first pour is usually a bit bitter/astringent tasting. It'll smoothen out. But the malt character is definitely...unique. I still haven't decided if I like it yet. I haven't noticed the beers are watery though, surprisingly.
 
actually, I think it needs to age a few more days since grain to glass is 7 days.

Took it by my LHBS and the initial feedback was "I would drink that. Much better than Clausthauer." High praise. :ban:

BTW, his place is commercial, not retail, so qualifies as an "essential" service and still open.

Everyone stay safe and healthy.
 
Update time.
1. the above brew day spunded into the keg and tasted on Day 7 was as I described above. However, I let it sit for a few days and the carboy clogged, and it tasted decently as I unclogged by pouring it out.
2. I did an English bitter style with Windsor, 2# golden promise steeped overnight, mashed 154F for 30 minutes with 1/2# crystal 60 with ~2.5 gallons total liquid, EKG hops. OG 1010, FG 1002. Grainy and clean tasting.
3. Also did a Czech hack with 2.5#vienna and 2.5# munich steeped overnight for 2.5 gallons liquid. Used 34/70 lager yeast. Needs to age as sulfur is very noticeable.

The "control" seperate batch was 1.5# vienna, 1.5# munich mashed normally for OG = 1022 and FG 1004, was pretty good.

Without having done more experiments and some normal 2% or 2.5% at a ~154F mash to compare, I would say the cold steep has more grain taste. I no longer describe this as "watery"

BTW, for the leftover denatured cold steep grains, 1/2# or 1# of 6 row will convert it into a decent table beer.

@beersk or others have an update?
 
kmarkstevens said:
Update time.
1. the above brew day spunded into the keg and tasted on Day 7 was as I described above. However, I let it sit for a few days and the carboy clogged, and it tasted decently as I unclogged by pouring it out.
2. I did an English bitter style with Windsor, 2# golden promise steeped overnight, mashed 154F for 30 minutes with 1/2# crystal 60 with ~2.5 gallons total liquid, EKG hops. OG 1010, FG 1002. Grainy and clean tasting.
3. Also did a Czech hack with 2.5#vienna and 2.5# munich steeped overnight for 2.5 gallons liquid. Used 34/70 lager yeast. Needs to age as sulfur is very noticeable.

The "control" seperate batch was 1.5# vienna, 1.5# munich mashed normally for OG = 1022 and FG 1004, was pretty good.

Without having done more experiments and some normal 2% or 2.5% at a ~154F mash to compare, I would say the cold steep has more grain taste. I no longer describe this as "watery"

BTW, for the leftover denatured cold steep grains, 1/2# or 1# of 6 row will convert it into a decent table beer.

@beersk or others have an update?
Click to expand...
Great, thanks for the info.
 
kmarkstevens said:
Update time.
1. the above brew day spunded into the keg and tasted on Day 7 was as I described above. However, I let it sit for a few days and the carboy clogged, and it tasted decently as I unclogged by pouring it out.
2. I did an English bitter style with Windsor, 2# golden promise steeped overnight, mashed 154F for 30 minutes with 1/2# crystal 60 with ~2.5 gallons total liquid, EKG hops. OG 1010, FG 1002. Grainy and clean tasting.
3. Also did a Czech hack with 2.5#vienna and 2.5# munich steeped overnight for 2.5 gallons liquid. Used 34/70 lager yeast. Needs to age as sulfur is very noticeable.

The "control" seperate batch was 1.5# vienna, 1.5# munich mashed normally for OG = 1022 and FG 1004, was pretty good.

Without having done more experiments and some normal 2% or 2.5% at a ~154F mash to compare, I would say the cold steep has more grain taste. I no longer describe this as "watery"

BTW, for the leftover denatured cold steep grains, 1/2# or 1# of 6 row will convert it into a decent table beer.

@beersk or others have an update?
Click to expand...
The update I have about my pilsner that I made this way is that it tastes very similar to the Vienna lager that I did. Definitely grainy tasting, but the malt character is a lot different. I'm not digging it. It might need tweaking and this method definitely doesn't create a watery, flavorless beer, but I'm likely not going to pursue it further as I am not liking the flavors I'm getting much from it.
 
At a personal level, it makes sense to avoid processes that produce un-enjoyable flavors. It may be that the same (or a different) set of ingredients works better for someone else.
 
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beersk said:
The update I have about my pilsner that I made this way is that it tastes very similar to the Vienna lager that I did. Definitely grainy tasting, but the malt character is a lot different. I'm not digging it. It might need tweaking and this method definitely doesn't create a watery, flavorless beer, but I'm likely not going to pursue it further as I am not liking the flavors I'm getting much from it.
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Certainly going to need tweaking. I will probably take a break and watch if others here break more ground.

net-net
1. I'm not obsessed with a 1% ABV beer.
2. Already have a couple of 1030 OG recipe keepers
3. Have plenty of 1040 OG recipes in the rotation
4. Results so far have been fine but not earth shattering
5. I like to experiment a bit so definitely was worth the effort so far.
 
kmarkstevens said:
Certainly going to need tweaking. I will probably take a break and watch if others here break more ground.

net-net
1. I'm not obsessed with a 1% ABV beer.
2. Already have a couple of 1030 OG recipe keepers
3. Have plenty of 1040 OG recipes in the rotation
4. Results so far have been fine but not earth shattering
5. I like to experiment a bit so definitely was worth the effort so far.
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It was nice to experiment as well for me. But I guess there's a reason why you don't hear about any professional breweries doing it this way. It's still better than what Clausthaler is doing though. That unfermented wort taste is just awful.
And, while I didn't try it, I think this method could work for darker styles, better than it does for lighter styles, and probably hoppy styles. Late hopping could work really well.
 
unfortunately, I haven't come on any amazing recipes and kinda stopped. I need to do another hot mash with London ESB yeast (which i prefer over Windsor by a long shot).

Ditto with a cold mash that is complex. My best cold mash was 2# vienna, 2# munich and a european lager yeast.

I think the Basic Brewing Radio episode will "air" next thursday. Hopefully y'all will like it
 
stickyfinger said:
wow! awesome. any amazing recipes you've come upon? The high mash temp doesn't result in grainy flavors?
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With regard to "grainy" flavors, listen to the HomeBrew Con 2016 presentation.

Also of interest in the presentation are the recipes that are included (as well as the samples that were distributed).

IMO, the emphasis of the presentation was not on making low ABV beers, but on the new (maybe good, maybe bad) flavors that the process can produce. As I suggested back in #42, "Cold extraction may not be the right process for brewing a traditional tasting low ABV beer".
 
Nice work @kmarkstevens, it was informative. I haven't given up on coldmashing yet but still trying to find the right balance. I'm either getting them to "grainy" or too thin, but it's getting better.
 
Thanks all. Doing the show was fun, especially as I've listened in for about a decade now. James Spencer is definately the kind of guy you want to have a few beers with.

I need to do a new cold mash. I've been working really long hours, and I do like to have some beers doing the night shift. But I don't want to get drunk. A glass or two of the cold mash is a refreshing start.

I find that any of the really low beers (1-2%) as a first glass or two, is a decent start. Then I want something a little bit bigger and break into the 3-4% territory. 5% these days feels like a big beer to me. ;)
 
I kegged 3 gal of .8% ABV "beer" last week. I used the cold-mash process, with no boiling hops, just steeping @170F.

I've done this recipe and a few varients several times. I prefer it highly carbonated and served very cold. It's refreshing, but it has little body.
 
Tom R said:
I kegged 3 gal of .8% ABV "beer" last week. I used the cold-mash process, with no boiling hops, just steeping @170F.

I've done this recipe and a few varients several times. I prefer it highly carbonated and served very cold. It's refreshing, but it has little body.
Click to expand...
Thanks for responding, what recipe have you used?
 
I started with the recipe on the first post of this thread, scaled it to 3 gal, then tweaked the grain bill and increased the hops slightly.

For a 3 gal keg:
5-1/2# 2-row
1/2# crystal 55 or 60
30g chocolate malt
30g mosaic
30g amarillo
WY1272

Steep grains overnight in 2-1/2 gal of 35F water
Recirculate 2 hours
Batch sparge with 1 gal of cold water.
Boil 45 minutes
Steep hops at 175F for 20 minutes
Ferment at 67F for 4 days
Chill to 33F
Fine with gelatin
Condition for 14 days

OG 1.012
FG 1.006
ABV 0.8%

I just poured an 8 oz. glass. It's almost ready, just needs to clear up a bit.
IMG_0360.JPG
 
Last edited:
Tom R said:
I started with the recipe on the first post of this thread, scaled it to 3 gal, then tweaked the grain bill and increased the hops slightly.

For a 3 gal keg:
5-1/2# 2-row
1/2# crystal 55 or 60
30g chocolate malt
30g mosaic
30g amarillo
WY1272

Steep grains overnight in 2-1/2 gal of 35F water
Recirculate 2 hours
Batch sparge with 1 gal of cold water.
Boil 45 minutes
Steep hops at 175F for 20 minutes
Ferment at 67F for 4 days
Chill to 33F
Fine with gelatin
Condition for 14 days

OG 1.012
FG 1.006
ABV 0.8%

I just poured an 8 oz. glass. It's almost ready, just needs to clear up a bit.
View attachment 719716
Click to expand...
Looks awesome! Have to ever tried a room temp "cold" mash? Curious if that may result in a different finished body in the beer.
 
No, I haven't. I'm finding that I need to keep the extract efficiency low, or I end I up with too much ABV.
I'm considering improving the mouthfeel on my next batch by adding some maltodextrine, or other non-fermentable adjunct.
 
Tom R said:
I started with the recipe on the first post of this thread, scaled it to 3 gal, then tweaked the grain bill and increased the hops slightly.

For a 3 gal keg:
5-1/2# 2-row
1/2# crystal 55 or 60
30g chocolate malt
30g mosaic
30g amarillo
WY1272

Steep grains overnight in 2-1/2 gal of 35F water
Recirculate 2 hours
Batch sparge with 1 gal of cold water.
Boil 45 minutes
Steep hops at 175F for 20 minutes
Ferment at 67F for 4 days
Chill to 33F
Fine with gelatin
Condition for 14 days

OG 1.012
FG 1.006
ABV 0.8%

I just poured an 8 oz. glass. It's almost ready, just needs to clear up a bit.
View attachment 719716
Click to expand...
thanks for posting. That looks pretty tasty.

I have a lot more beers ahead in the queue, but will probably try out a batch or three when the weather warms up!
 
Have we decided here that mashing hot 160-180F is in fact not a good way to brew low abv? Simply because it yields a higher final gravity, thus more calories. Or has that not been pursued as much?
I may do another cold mash as the Vienna I had made last year was decent, but the pilsner wasn't very good. Maybe a stout or porter could be good too for this, especially on nitro.
 
I confess that I haven't done any further experiements 'cause life got in the way. I do want to try one more hot mash with the London ESB, which is in the library. Thanks for reminding that I need to put this in the brewing queue, and that I should revisit these two ultra low ABV techniques.

Not sure if I mentioned it before, but I did a cold mash and put it straight into the corny keg with a floating dip tube. Basically the OG was about the same as the carbonation sugars. It came out decently for a really low ABV brew. Definately better than Klosters or some of that malty sweet 0.5% beers that are out there.
 
kmarkstevens said:
I confess that I haven't done any further experiements 'cause life got in the way. I do want to try one more hot mash with the London ESB, which is in the library. Thanks for reminding that I need to put this in the brewing queue, and that I should revisit these two ultra low ABV techniques.

Not sure if I mentioned it before, but I did a cold mash and put it straight into the corny keg with a floating dip tube. Basically the OG was about the same as the carbonation sugars. It came out decently for a really low ABV brew. Definately better than Klosters or some of that malty sweet 0.5% beers that are out there.
Click to expand...
Huh, that's a nice idea - ferment and serve in the same keg. Hadn't thought of that. With so little yeast cake, I wouldn't think it would cause issues with flavor.
 

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