Local Brewpub getting screwed...

[brokebucket]

I looked at the blog, 2 things:

1. whole lot of whining. i am sure they are slammed by what might have been, but nobody likes whining. I would be more apt to pull for them without it.

2. Why the amish look? I mean, they are in amish country, but dont you think it's a little inappropriate to use an amish sales pitch if you arent amish? Kinda cheesy to me.

Other than that, I have no opinions on it.

 

[Rhumbline]

They are a brew pub, I wonder if it occurred to them to visit all of the adjacent businesses and homes and maybe dole out a six pack or something just as a way of introducing themselves and buying a little good grace. I'm not talking about the whole town, just the ones immediately affected.

It's good PR, and good advertising too. Probably too late now, it would seem forced.

 

[yrewerb]

For those that haven't checked out the location, here's what it looks like. Definitely not residential area. That said, I don't think they would last long around here (Seattle area.) They want $6 a pint in a glass and $4 per pint in a growler. My local brewery sells pints for $4 (less during happy hour) and $2.50 per pint in a growler. Local brew pubs are 4-5 dollars a pint.

 

[rexbanner]

For those that haven't checked out the location, here's what it looks like. Definitely not residential area. That said, I don't think they would last long around here (Seattle area.) They want $6 a pint in a glass and $4 per pint in a growler. My local brewery sells pints for $4 (less during happy hour) and $2.50 per pint in a growler. Local brew pubs are 4-5 dollars a pint.

Things are different on the east coast, market isn't nearly as over-saturated and in some areas the income is a lot higher. I own a nano and the bars right next to me charge $6-8 a pint for real good craft beer. I live in the richest county in the U.S. though.

 

[Monster Mash]

They want $6 a pint in a glass and $4 per pint in a growler.

If you were brewing 10 gallon batches on a Sabco system you would want top dollar also. That guy will be brewing night and day just to keep up with demand.

 

[bottlebomber]

If you were brewing 10 gallon batches on a Sabco system you would want top dollar also. That guy will be brewing night and day just to keep up with demand.

How is that the consumers fault? The only way I would pay that kind of money for beer would be if it was either so damn good it tasted like angels brewed it, or if it was a close personal friend I was trying to support. Personally there's no way in hell I'd try to start a business with a 10 gallon system. Unless you are completely destitute and don't value your time, it's hard to imagine why anyone would do this.

 

[Frige]

LOL I have a 10 batch system and cant even keep up myself.

 

[mattd2]

If you were brewing 10 gallon batches on a Sabco system you would want top dollar also. That guy will be brewing night and day just to keep up with demand.

What? Are they really using a 10 gallon Sabco? the more I read this the more I am leaning towards the side of - lack of planning.
I also agree with what was said a few posts up about the blog being a bit whinning. I get the angle of trying to build a personal relationship with you customers but it is a bit much.
I would say that for this to succeed the food has got to be amazing - that is what will draw people into this place and make them willing to spend top dollar on a craft beer brewed on site with their meal, and then take some home too. I know most people say this of brewpubs all the time, but I personally think a brewpub can (and I have seen it in New Zealand) stand on the feet of their beer alone but they had gone into knowing that to make it work they had to go with a reasonable size to get any economies of scale out of the operation... and brew amazing beer!
Again personally I would be more inclined to label this place as a boutique resturant with a point-of-difference that they serve their own beer, rather than a brewpub. But that is just my opinion

 

[FastAndy]

Dogfish Head started on a 10 gallon Sabco right?

Not really sure system size has much to do with argument.

 

[bottlebomber]

Dogfish Head started on a 10 gallon Sabco right?

Not really sure system size has much to do with argument.

If the argument is behind the economics of a six dollar pint of beer, I'd say it has an awful lot to do with it.

 

[FastAndy]

So now the neighbors are mad that the brewpub they don't want in their neighborhood is charging $6 a pint? Do they have Amtrak's blessing to charge $6 a pint?

 

[fluidmechanics]

Neigbor being a total tool over a local brewpub opening and not even willing to discuss anything:

http://fox43.com/2013/05/31/mount-joy-brewery-fighting-to-stay-open/#axzz2V9q5J9g1

Hopefully they can resolve it and move on.

OP, you should get in touch with your local beer clubs, LHBS, friends and neighbors (those not making an issue) and get folks to stop in at varying times , I know you can't drink there, but get a growler filled and take it to go. Maybe the cash and support will keep them alive until the parking issue is resolved. Ask the local media to do a follow up and get it in the papers. Sell it as the community supporting a local business being held down being held hostage by bureaucracy and how the community won't stand to see it fail.

 

[bottlebomber]

So now the neighbors are mad that the brewpub they don't want in their neighborhood is charging $6 a pint? Do they have Amtrak's blessing to charge $6 a pint?

No, the neighbors are upset that there is a pub that's been built next door. We are having a side discussion on the ridiculousness of a brewery running a 10 gallon system, and selling pints for six bucks.

 

[mattd2]

Dogfish Head started on a 10 gallon Sabco right?

Not really sure system size has much to do with argument.

I know that would come up
But how long was it before he realised his mistake and went to a 3bbl (I think) brewhouse?

 

[FastAndy]

I know that would come up
But how long was it before he realised his mistake and went to a 3bbl (I think) brewhouse?

Not sure, I bet running that Sabco three times a day was exhausting though!

 

[TVM71]

OP, you should get in touch with your local beer clubs, LHBS, friends and neighbors (those not making an issue) and get folks to stop in at varying times , I know you can't drink there, but get a growler filled and take it to go. Maybe the cash and support will keep them alive until the parking issue is resolved. Ask the local media to do a follow up and get it in the papers. Sell it as the community supporting a local business being held down being held hostage by bureaucracy and how the community won't stand to see it fail.

Will be heading there with friends for growlers sometime in the next week.

 

[machfive55]

So, I've looked into this. A couple things.

Someone mentioned them being close to a church, they are and the law in PA is 300 ft. They are over 300 ft from the church so that's OK.

The area in question is most likely residential zoned with commercial properties sprinkled around, they might have gotten a zoning variance to open, that is relatively common. The zoning variance most likely relied on an agreement with using Amtrak's lot and the town OK'd it based on that (just speculation). A lot of towns in PA are like that where you have small businesses amongst homes and apartments. The street is probably over parked during the week due to commuters using the Amtrak station, there is parking there but it is likely not enough during the week and the commuters park up the streets. Not the greatest place for a brewpub, but not bad either. It is a small establishment.

One point that is easy to make is that they are already operating as a restaurant, so they are already filling their seats with people coming to eat. I agree with people that say they should have pre-planned, but I also like the idea of supporting a local small biz. I also like the idea that the opened in a residential area, so customers can walk to the bar rather than driving. I'd like to see more places try something similar.

 

[TVM71]

So, I've looked into this. A couple things.

Someone mentioned them being close to a church, they are and the law in PA is 300 ft. They are over 300 ft from the church so that's OK.

The area in question is most likely residential zoned with commercial properties sprinkled around, they might have gotten a zoning variance to open, that is relatively common. The zoning variance most likely relied on an agreement with using Amtrak's lot and the town OK'd it based on that (just speculation). A lot of towns in PA are like that where you have small businesses amongst homes and apartments. The street is probably over parked during the week due to commuters using the Amtrak station, there is parking there but it is likely not enough during the week and the commuters park up the streets. Not the greatest place for a brewpub, but not bad either. It is a small establishment.

One point that is easy to make is that they are already operating as a restaurant, so they are already filling their seats with people coming to eat. I agree with people that say they should have pre-planned, but I also like the idea of supporting a local small biz. I also like the idea that the opened in a residential area, so customers can walk to the bar rather than driving. I'd like to see more places try something similar.

Let me know if you head over for a growler or pint (when allowed to serve them) and maybe we'll catch up since I'm in East Pete.

 

[TwoRiders]

What alot of you guys are failing to realize is the culture difference between the East and West coast and even in PA and surrounding areas.

We have a lot of small homes with businesses up front. Hairdressers, pubs, bars, restaurants, hell even subways are setup in the downstairs of peoples homes.

As was said this is especially prevalent in the older sections of towns where it is a hold over from times when this was common practice.

Regarding 6 dollar pints.

I am willing to pay 6 for a decent beer, On the West coast there are some places where if you don't like the beer you can walk down the street to a different micro brew. Here in PA you have to drive to the next town over in most cases. So 6 dollars for a GOOD beer is reasonable. Heck I have to drive an hour to get to Stoudts for a beer and some schnitzel. Also to visit my cousin but mostly for the beer.

So bottom line. The business being where it is, that is normal for here in PA, the 6 dollar pint while the price could be lower that is not unheard of for good beer and sometimes in the city even BMC.

All in all I hope this microbrewery gets up and running and next time im up in Lancaster I'll pick up a brew.

ALso the Amish thing, They should be careful or Lebanon Levi will show up in his caddy and bust in their kneecaps with his butter churn.

 

[scoundrel]

What's interesting to me is R&R Automotive is one block down. If parking is an issue, where do they put all of their cars? IMO, an automotive repair shop in a semi-residential neighborhood would require many parking spaces, that I suspect would end up in the Amtrak parking across the way. Not to mention, a bunch of broken down cars, waiting to be repaired, could be deemed as an eye sore near residential homes or to other small businesses. They're just picking on these people and it's BS.

 

[bobmcstuff]

Sorry, but that's all I heard.


I don't think I'd be up for a bar or brewpub opening up that close to my home either. I love visiting them and hanging out when I can, but I bought my house only 3 years ago and if one started moving in a couple hundred feet down the road I might fight it as well.

Doesn't look/sound like the best of locations.

Sorry!

Do you guys not have the concept of neighbourhood pubs then? I like having a decent pub in easy walking (stumbling) distance...

 

[Rhumbline]

Do you guys not have the concept of neighbourhood pubs then? I like having a decent pub in easy walking (stumbling) distance...

That's why I homebrew.

There is an upscale "Pub" at the end of my street. I went in once and was the most underdressed (and oldest)person in the place. To give you an idea, they had a special and it was a "Guinness Martini" and the draft beers were $8 a pint.

But I'm doubtful that parking is the issue here.

 

[JKaranka]

I have eight pubs within a quarter of a mile radius (if that) and that is one of the things that makes this an attractive area to live. I don't notice the one on my street unless I walk by and they're having a karaoke on a Friday night.

 

[mattd2]

So, I've looked into this. A couple things.

Someone mentioned them being close to a church, they are and the law in PA is 300 ft. They are over 300 ft from the church so that's OK.

The area in question is most likely residential zoned with commercial properties sprinkled around, they might have gotten a zoning variance to open, that is relatively common. The zoning variance most likely relied on an agreement with using Amtrak's lot and the town OK'd it based on that (just speculation). A lot of towns in PA are like that where you have small businesses amongst homes and apartments. The street is probably over parked during the week due to commuters using the Amtrak station, there is parking there but it is likely not enough during the week and the commuters park up the streets. Not the greatest place for a brewpub, but not bad either. It is a small establishment.

One point that is easy to make is that they are already operating as a restaurant, so they are already filling their seats with people coming to eat. I agree with people that say they should have pre-planned, but I also like the idea of supporting a local small biz. I also like the idea that the opened in a residential area, so customers can walk to the bar rather than driving. I'd like to see more places try something similar.

Is it 300 ft on the road or 300ft radius? Because I though it looked within a 300' radius of the church.
With 30 seats and a focus on food I agree that this is not the place where lots of people are going to hang out to get drunk. I see it as a resturant (as I mentioned above) and I agree with you that I wouldn't expect a large increase in patronage if the started selling their beer. For me going to this palce would be for dinner, have a few beers and take some home = so the small setup kind of works.

 

[Hackwood]

Do you guys not have the concept of neighbourhood pubs then? I like having a decent pub in easy walking (stumbling) distance...

I DID used to frequent The Leprechaun Inn(sp) in Murray, UT at least 1 night a week if not 7. Yes it was within walking distance, but it was easily a 1/2 mile away. I don't have an issue with that.

Seeing the maps, it DOES look to be more commercial than residential, so if that is it I probably wouldn't be bugged too much. My issue with that post I quoted wasn't so much to go against the Pub, just highlight how more an more of US Americans are more ME ME in what we say without thinking that what we do may affect others. And if it does, it's their problem. I'll just punch them in the face if they do. HAHA Now that's a good way to fix someone when YOU'RE in the wrong, punch them in the face. SHEESH!

 

[moski]

As it's been said before, the PA laws are kind of screwy. But know this, they would not have gotten as far as they have without clearance from the Borough, and that includes zoning and that area appears to be a mixed use commercial zone, something not at all unusual in some of our older towns. LCB regs make them have to address the complaint. The neighbors are just being pains, Parking was addressed locally in the zoning permit for the business, the area is littered with parking lots not even including the AMTRAK area.

If you don't want an "objectionable" business opening up near you then don't move into a mixed zone. If you live in a mixed zone then suck it up and don't abuse the law. I know the PALCB has enough work to do with Real nuisance bars without this pishfest. The pub owners followed the law and put out their money up front as required. They were and are in full compliance with every regulation/prerequisite/hoop they needed to jump through.

Sorry if I've rambled but grousing about "my parking" is one of my hot buttons.

 

[FlyFisherman]

Wow, I work in Mount joy and just walked by this place last night after a co worker told me about it. It is tiny! Barely a dozen people may fit into the place. When I first heard about it I wondered where people would Park at because parking space is non existent right there. It is a very odd place to put a brew pub and if it's successful it will no doubt be moving into a larger facility........I didn't get to read the article, can't get it to open in my phone so I'll read it at work in a few minutes.

 

[FlyFisherman]

What is your dads Saturday night may be someone else's Monday morning. It's always good to consider others, not everyone is on the same schedule. I know if I had to be up in a couple hours, or I had young kids that couldn't sleep, I would have damn sure shut down the wedding as well. It's not always the case the people are trying to kill the buzz.

As far as the brewpub, it sucks but it's also hard to be real sympathetic. Why would they get this far along in their plans without contacting the neighbors? "Hey guys, we want to open a brewpub next door. Is that ok with you?" I personally wouldn't want to live next to what is essentially a bar. I value my peace and solitude above all, and if something like this was trying to open up on my street I would also do anything I could to stop it. However, if it was in a different part of town I would obviously go out of my way to support it. I don't agree with their passive aggressive techniques though. They should have communicated if they were upset.

The one thing that's really seemed odd to me is that they moved into a renovated house and I don't think they are even occupying the whole house. I just drove by the place 2 minutes ago and can verify that they have enough parking on their property for about 3 cars and the other lots close by are private except for Amtrak. With all the new development going on in and around Mount Joy it seems to me that the owners would have had many other options to locate. Once again I have to say that the place they chose is a very odd location for a brew pub.

 

[tgmartin000]

Bottom line, if the zoning is appropriate, the neighbors don't have an argument. Sounds like they need a pint of STFU. and are people really complaining about having a brewpub in their neighborhood?

 

[rexbanner]

Bottom line, if the zoning is appropriate, the neighbors don't have an argument. Sounds like they need a pint of STFU. and are people really complaining about having a brewpub in their neighborhood?

Right. I'm in the same boat, my brewery license is currently in the phase where asshats can object. I'm sandwiched between two bars and another brewpub.

The feedback on this thread is astounding. I don't care if my peace and quiet are disturbed, if it is someone's LIFE, livelihood, etc...shut it. Putting it nicely. Especially the guy who quoted me earlier and changed my quote, you sound like a little *****. I'd like to roll you out of here like a bowling ball.

 

[mkringii]

The neighbors won't open their door? If they don't open their door then they don't have customers and if they don't have customers why do they need parking?

Edit: I watched the video and it appears to be in a residential area. In CA that wouldn't fly no matter what the business was, you can't have a bunch of customers showing up in a residential area.

Its all on the city/town zoning.. Its weird stuff .. But there are parts around me that you'll be driving down the road and its a huge high school on the left and house after house on the right then a oil change shop between 2 houses where one would assume a home used to be..if its zoned for business (which is seeing how all permits and licenses went through) then wtf do they really have to complain a out.. And i say this with a brewpub about to open EXACTLY 500 paces from my front door..

 

[wailingguitar]

Another article regarding the situation:

http://lancasteronline.com/eedition/pages/news/edition/CEAM/20130606/A/1/2475892

 

[machfive55]

Like I mentioned before, there are businesses and even a church that are spread out among the homes. That's just how towns around here are setup. The businesses come in and get zoning variances, based on things like having enough parking, maintaining daytime operating hours, etc. I'm sure the brewery got a variance and had to convince the borough council they would be good neighbors. Part of that probably required them to show that Amtrak was on board sharing their parking lot, and they are. However, the PLCB may want to see a more formal agreement, like a lease of the lot or something to be convinced.

It's the liquor control board that needs convincing, in PA this is separate from the zoning board. My guess is they won't be denied their license, its just a matter of time now and fighting for it...and government is not quick to react in PA.

As for $6 pints. That seems steep for central PA. I have seen prices comparable to that and I have also seen prices lower. I don't buy craft beer based on price though.

I for one love the idea of local pubs, right in the neighborhood. We have groups like MADD trying to get the DUI limits lowered as it is. It just makes sense to be able to walk to the neighborhood pub for a few pints and walk home without getting behind the wheel. I'd really embrace this in my neighborhood but that is just me. The other thing they have going against them is the conservative nature of Lancaster County, PA. There are still people here that think prohibition is a good idea and I'm not kidding about that.

 

[ktblunden]

Another article regarding the situation:

http://lancasteronline.com/eedition/pages/news/edition/CEAM/20130606/A/1/2475892

This article provides a lot more details. The neighbors who are complaining have a driveway. The neighbors also have no strictly stated right to use Amtrak's lot, whereas the brewery obtained an occupancy permit to use it. Just because Amtrak chooses not to enforce parking in the lot does not mean it's public parking. The brewery is very clearly in the right according to that.

 

[ajames]

As someone who lives within walking distance to this new brewpub, I would love to see it succeed. I have lived in Mount Joy for about a year and a half, and in my humble opinion, Main Street needs people, and businesses like this.

As other's have stated, and shown in pictures, it is not a residential area. For the past couple weeks, every time I sit at a red light at the corner of Main/Market, I point at the sign, and re-iterate to my wife that we've got to go.

It seems as though Mount Joy has desperately been trying to revive it's downtown as of late, which is great, but I don't think they're going to get very far without embracing the newbies. Skilled people, excited about their craft, opening storefronts is what fills the streets on a Sat. afternoon. To boot, there really is no parking anywhere for the existing stores on Main Street. Filling in the side streets is already happening, and that will not change.

You know what i'd like to see? Offer to have the neighbors sell some baked goods at the pub whenever they want. One of them has got to have a killer pie, muffin, bread recipe up their sleeve. If they have skills in the kitchen, well then there's an even better draw. If they don't, then maybe the brewpub's already a cut above the drunken sausage-fest that the neighbors may assume it will be.

 

[mattd2]

I am starting to understand the complaint a bit more after reading the second article. My perspective is that it seems like they siezed the oppertunity of a "good" location early and I would guess without consultation of the neighbours. Now it seems those neighbours are making a last ditch effort (and clutching at straws) to stop a pub being opened next door. I would bet (since didn't the first article mention that they would not openly discuss it with the owners) that what they think they are getting is closer to a biker bar than a higher end resturant. Again poor planning with the neighbours seem to be at fault and they have their backs up now so won't consider a reasonable discussion.

 

[moski]

I'm not getting the responses here about the pub owners consulting with the neighbors before putting in the pub. Why should they, or any business for that matter, have to basically ask permission from anyone to do something legal and then jumping through all the government hoops. It seems to suggest that if the neighbors had objected when they went to them with their hat on their hands they should not have proceeded at all with the local/state compliance and just packed it up? I'd hate to be the one to have to tell them but their opinion does not matter. The owners have complied with all government requirements thus far (zoning, parking, occupancy, food safety, etc.), the parking complaint is an abuse of the system and a waste of LCB resources. The only ones being bad neighbors here are the complainants.

I hoe that the LCB can defer to the local zoning/parking compliance and quickly dispose of the case. In this day and age it would be a crying shame for a business to fail just because someone decided to throw a hissy fit over not getting their way. This is someone's livelihood.

 

[mattd2]

I'm not getting the responses here about the pub owners consulting with the neighbors before putting in the pub. Why should they, or any business for that matter, have to basically ask permission from anyone to do something legal and then jumping through all the government hoops. It seems to suggest that if the neighbors had objected when they went to them with their hat on their hands they should not have proceeded at all with the local/state compliance and just packed it up? I'd hate to be the one to have to tell them but their opinion does not matter. The owners have complied with all government requirements thus far (zoning, parking, occupancy, food safety, etc.), the parking complaint is an abuse of the system and a waste of LCB resources. The only ones being bad neighbors here are the complainants.

I hoe that the LCB can defer to the local zoning/parking compliance and quickly dispose of the case. In this day and age it would be a crying shame for a business to fail just because someone decided to throw a hissy fit over not getting their way. This is someone's livelihood.

What I am saying is that if you are going to open a business that it would be best to at least approach the neighbours. This is the perfect example why, if they had of talked with they neighbours up front they would have been in one of 3 situations:
1) Neighbour appreciate being involved early, listern to what is actually being started (not jumping to conclusions) and "give their blessing," i.e. say that they have no issues and will not try to stop the business in the future.
2) Neighbour appreciate being involved early but still jumps to conclusions and states that they don't want a bar opening next door - at least now you know that they will possibly pull some **** like they have done here to try and stop the business succeeding.
3) Blatently not want to talk to you - again at least now you know that they will most likely through something into the mix to cause problems.

If you end up at 2 or 3 then at least you can plan for that extra 4 months of no on-licence and it doens't come as a shock.

I agree fully that the bad neighbours are the complaintants and they should not be using the system to basically try and bankrupt the business so they won't open - that sucks. But the owners could have been prepared for this hichup if they had consulted in the beginning.

 

[Rhumbline]

I'm not getting the responses here about the pub owners consulting with the neighbors before putting in the pub. Why should they, or any business for that matter, have to basically ask permission from anyone to do something legal and then jumping through all the government hoops...

It's about doing more than the absolute bare minimum required by law. The owners didn't have any legal obligation to go around to their neighbors, but it would have been a great idea for several reasons.

They are opening a brew pub. How difficult would it have been to give out a dozen or so six packs as advertising or maybe invite all the adjacent property owners/workers to a private opening? These are likely to be some of your future customers anyway. Maybe there's a sandwich shop or bakery nearby that could provide pretzels or sandwiches or whatever. You give them a reason to want your business to succeed.

I would guess that the neighbors want to know one thing, "How's this going to affect me?" Letting them know that you are not going to be competing with their business is a good start. Letting them know that you're not going to be serving 25 cent drafts to the frat boys is another point you want to make. Parking? That's first come first serve on open land but you can narrow it down to the people who'd be most affected and try to work something out.

 

[rexbanner]

It's about doing more than the absolute bare minimum required by law. The owners didn't have any legal obligation to go around to their neighbors, but it would have been a great idea for several reasons.

They are opening a brew pub. How difficult would it have been to give out a dozen or so six packs as advertising or maybe invite all the adjacent property owners/workers to a private opening? These are likely to be some of your future customers anyway. Maybe there's a sandwich shop or bakery nearby that could provide pretzels or sandwiches or whatever. You give them a reason to want your business to succeed.

I would guess that the neighbors want to know one thing, "How's this going to affect me?" Letting them know that you are not going to be competing with their business is a good start. Letting them know that you're not going to be serving 25 cent drafts to the frat boys is another point you want to make. Parking? That's first come first serve on open land but you can narrow it down to the people who'd be most affected and try to work something out.

One thing I have learned is to not cast pearls before swine. Someone opposed to a brewery isn't going to be swayed by a six-pack because chances are that they aren't into beer. Talking to these people beforehand probably would not have made them any keener on the idea.

Also I don't feel like it is your duty to go around politicking for your business. This is America and you don't see dry cleaners going around offering free shirt presses to neighbors or especially explaining to neighboring businesses how they won't be competing...objecting to keep away competition isn't permissable.

I located in 100% commercial area so that the only people whose approval I needed was the town government. My neighboring businesses weren't thrilled to have another bar or share parking but tough ****. They can't object on those grounds. It's unfortunate that this town is a mix of business and residential.