Liquid yeast how much?

[Beenym88]

Sorry if this has been posted a million times I didn’t see it. I’m wondering people’s opinion on this. How come liquid yeast packaging directions is so wildly different from the yeast calculators. My next brew day I’m doing a simple wheat beer expected to end at 1.052. Every yeast calculator and everything I’ve read says I would need more than 100 billion cells that’s in my wyeast package. If I really need 200 billion why does it say it’s good to go? It also makes me favor imperial yeast since they come with 200 billion most of my beers finish 1.060 or higher so with a 100billion cell package I’d need to make more than one starter which just seems like a bit much. Sorry for the rant but I am curious as to what people think. With dry yeast I didn’t mind because it’s cheap but liquid yeast cost to much too have to do two steps or buy multiple packages before you use it.

 

[day_trippr]

First, "Marketing".
Second...you should not need to do more than a single step starter to get to 200B cells - which is actually a bit more than needed for a five gallon batch of 52 point wort.

Check out this calculator - it's my current favorite because it can allocate for overbuilding, which is how I ranch yeast.

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
Cheers!

 

[Redpappy]

non scientific answer... I mainly use dry yeast, however for a few of my beers I have gone with liquid. Most of my beers are from 1040-1055 range 5 gal batches. with that, I have pitched strictly the package yeast. I have done a few starters, in which i have noticed some difference, i.e. fermentation starts off with in a few hours. But other than that I have not noticed a difference.
keep in mind, when the yeast are packaged, that is roughly the amount of cells in the package, however over time the cells start to die off. in which a stater is required.
I do a starter for 2 reasons, 1. to give my yeast a jump start and 2. so that I can split it, so that I am buying the yeast once,and getting several uses out of it.

I am no means an expert, my thought can be in the left field. i'm a simple brewer, or try to be.

 

[Vale71]

How come liquid yeast packaging directions is so wildly different from the yeast calculators.

Instructions are written by those who are trying to sell you their product. I have yet to meet a salesperson who is 100% honest all the time. Wait, I met one once actually. He's currently unemployed and living with his mother...

 

[IslandLizard]

What @day_trippr said. ^

Even if you'd need only 100 billion cells, which is the amount a package typically contains at packaging, 2-3 months later, count on 8-10% loss of cells per month.
You should always make a starter with liquid yeast as you don't know how it was handled and how viable it is. Can save you a an unexpected surprise later.

Always overbuild your starter so you can save some out (to make a new starter from) for your next batch, etc.

 

[Beenym88]

Instructions are written by those who are trying to sell you their product. I have yet to meet a salesperson who is 100% honest all the time. Wait, I met one once actually. He's currently unemployed and living with his mother...

I get what your saying it just seems odd that the directions are flat out wrong. I’d think you’d lose people along the way who had under pitch problems.

 

[Vale71]

I get what your saying it just seems odd that the directions are flat out wrong. I’d think you’d lose people along the way who had under pitch problems.

That might be the case but if manufacturer X were to claim "one packet of our yeast is enough for 5g of beer" and manufacturer Z were to say "you need two packet of our yeast for 5g of beer" who do you think would still make more money at the end of the day?

 

[Beenym88]

That might be the case but if manufacturer X were to claim "one packet of our yeast is enough for 5g of beer" and manufacturer Z were to say "you need two packet of our yeast for 5g of beer" who do you think would still make more money at the end of the day?

You totally make sense. As a big beer maker I my beers are rarely under 1.06 I just wish one pack was good to go but I know when I don’t feel like prepping the starters dry yeast has never let me down.

 

[moreb33rplz]

I worked for companies that make and sell things, and gotta say I'd be shocked if the yeast manufacturers were telling people to use their product in a way which would probably produe poor results. My two cents

 

[cubalz]

non scientific answer... I mainly use dry yeast, however for a few of my beers I have gone with liquid. Most of my beers are from 1040-1055 range 5 gal batches. with that, I have pitched strictly the package yeast. I have done a few starters, in which i have noticed some difference, i.e. fermentation starts off with in a few hours. But other than that I have not noticed a difference.
keep in mind, when the yeast are packaged, that is roughly the amount of cells in the package, however over time the cells start to die off. in which a starter is required.
I do a starter for 2 reasons, 1. to give my yeast a jump start and 2. so that I can split it, so that I am buying the yeast once, and getting several uses out of it.

I totally agree with this entire statement. I would have answered the exact same way, word for word.

 

[McKnuckle]

I think the problem is not that the freshly packaged product is inadequate for its intended purposes, it's that the manufacturer has no control over the product's handling once sold to a retail establishment. It could be kept warmer than ideal; it could be inadvertently frozen; it could sit for weeks or months before being sold. The seller could ignore the "best buy" date.

These things are exacerbated when mail order comes into play. You can't even inspect it yourself in person before purchasing.

And it is because of those variables that we usually just assume that a starter is part of the process. It's inconvenient but c'est la vie.

 

[IslandLizard]

It's inconvenient but c'est la vie.

It's part of good brewing.

Preparing a starter takes less than half an hour. There's some waiting time at the end for the wort to cool, but you don't have to stand there. Just stick the pot in the sink or a tub with cold water.

 

[Beenym88]

One of the main points I was getting at is I just don’t understand how wyeast for example is 100 billion and says it’s good enough for a direct pitch but then every calculator is telling me I need close to 200.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

Both Chris White and David Logsdon have both said that their yeast is viable enough to be pitched directly into wort and make beer just fine. So yes, you can get away with pitching liquid yeast directly, but depending on style and OG, the lag time will vary. Building a starter is not hard, nor is the tiny investment to get the gear to do so. I spent $40 to get my stir plate and 2L flask to do starters. The pitching calculators are there to get higher pitching rates if you want. If it works for you and the beer comes out the way you want it, don't mess with it. But I do challenge you: try making a starter for a beer you commonly brew and see how it turns out.

 

[IslandLizard]

One of the main points I was getting at is I just don’t understand how wyeast for example is 100 billion and says it’s good enough for a direct pitch but then every calculator is telling me I need close to 200.

It's much worse than that.
A pack of Wyeast that's at or nearing its "best by" date is 6 months old. At 8-15% loss of viability per month (depending on storage and handling), that pack has between 25 and 50% viability. That translates to 25-50 billion live cells left. That's definitely skimpy for a pitch in a 1.050-1.060 beer and that's also where you start building your starter from. Can it ferment it? Probably. Will it be the best possible beer? That's the bigger question.

Best case scenario, there are 50 billion viable cells left after 3-6 months kept in the fridge. But it could be as low as 25 billion or even less if mishandled, such as shipped during extreme hot or cold weather, or sitting in a hot postal truck or mailbox for a day.

 

[IslandLizard]

But I do challenge you: try making a starter for a beer you commonly brew and see how it turns out.

Or better, do a Brulosophy type of exbeeriment.
Split your batch, add half a pack to the one half and half your starter to the second half. Compare progress and results.

 

[Beenym88]

Both Chris White and David Logsdon have both said that their yeast is viable enough to be pitched directly into wort and make beer just fine. So yes, you can get away with pitching liquid yeast directly, but depending on style and OG, the lag time will vary. Building a starter is not hard, nor is the tiny investment to get the gear to do so. I spent $40 to get my stir plate and 2L flask to do starters. The pitching calculators are there to get higher pitching rates if you want. If it works for you and the beer comes out the way you want it, don't mess with it. But I do challenge you: try making a starter for a beer you commonly brew and see how it turns out.

So far I’ve only used liquid yeast with a starter this is just something I’ve been curious about

 

[KeizerBrewr]

I made a cream ale with WLP005(British Ale) this summer. I didn't prepare a starter, just direct pitch. It took about 24 hours for it to show signs of life in my Catalyst, but then it took off and achieved 76% attenuation. It was a really neat version of a cream ale, I recommend you all try it(not to go off topic).

 

[cmac62]

I don't know enough about any of this stuff to really have anything to say, but my question is where do the calculator's get their required #'s? They are on the internet and I don't trust anything on the internet as gospel. I have done both starters and direct pitched liquid yeast that was not the freshest and both made beer. My pallet is also suspect, but I didn't taste any thing off on the beers direct pitched. I really like just sprinkling dry yeast right onto the wort with no stirring or aeration required. On my third batch of beer I brewed a IRS with 23 lbs of grain for 5 gal batch, the abv was suppose to get into the 13% range, I sprinkled one package of Lallamand Bry97, closed it up and a day later the top of the bucket blew off and made a huge mess. I guess my point is both the packaging and the calculators can't be right, but the truth is likely in the middle. Like mash temp, pitch rate is a factor, but how much of a factor is in question.

 

[Beenym88]

I don't know enough about any of this stuff to really have anything to say, but my question is where do the calculator's get their required #'s? They are on the internet and I don't trust anything on the internet as gospel. I have done both starters and direct pitched liquid yeast that was not the freshest and both made beer. My pallet is also suspect, but I didn't taste any thing off on the beers direct pitched. I really like just sprinkling dry yeast right onto the wort with no stirring or aeration required. On my third batch of beer I brewed a IRS with 23 lbs of grain for 5 gal batch, the abv was suppose to get into the 13% range, I sprinkled one package of Lallamand Bry97, closed it up and a day later the top of the bucket blew off and made a huge mess. I guess my point is both the packaging and the calculators can't be right, but the truth is likely in the middle. Like mash temp, pitch rate is a factor, but how much of a factor is in question.

This pretty much exactly what I was getting at and I figured it had to be in the middle it’s just the numbers are so different it makes no sense so I prefer to error on the side of over pitching.

 

[IslandLizard]

One of the main points I was getting at is I just don’t understand how wyeast for example is 100 billion and says it’s good enough for a direct pitch but then every calculator is telling me I need close to 200.

There is the book "Yeast" written by Jamil Zainasheff (of Mr. Malty fame, and much more) and Chris White (yup, the White Labs guy).
It goes quite deeply into the organism, her inner workings and contribution to fermentation, especially beer. Among other interesting topics, it also focuses on how to optimize culturing, propagation, storage, and yes, fermentation.

That's where the recommended pitch rate (million cells/ml/°P) comes from, which in turn is based on tons of scientific research. It's also the pitch rate used in most modern day yeast (pitch) calculators. In that light, recommended pitch rates for Lager yeasts are double those of Ale yeasts.

More recently, even Chris White, when asked, if he would pitch directly or make a starter, has stated he would pitch directly. @mongoose33 mentioned this after he attended a brewing workshop in Asheville within the past 2 years.

Chris White undoubtedly believes in his company's products, but statements like that are curious at the least.
Maybe he can grab a fresh PurePitch sleeve out of his company lab's refrigerator, and know it's as vital as last week's batch. But most of us don't have that luxury. My goto LHBS has an astonishing White Labs selection, but not many packs aren't even close as fresh as his, most are 2-4 month old on average. And they were shipped at some point, possibly more than once.

Even a vial from White Labs' Yeast vault I had pre-ordered needed 3 step ups over 2 weeks to get a pitchable cell count for a 5 gallon 1.060 Grisette (it's a hoppy Saison) and have enough left for another starter to brew more from later. Yes, it was on a USPS truck for nearly a week on the most southern route to get here, in March, not even in the midst of Summer.

 

[IslandLizard]

So far I’ve only used liquid yeast with a starter this is just something I’ve been curious about

How big of a starter do you make?
Stir plate or shaken intermittently on the counter?

 

[IslandLizard]

This pretty much exactly what I was getting at and I figured it had to be in the middle it’s just the numbers are so different it makes no sense so I prefer to error on the side of over pitching.

Sure, there's a fine line (but not that fine) between recommended pitch rate and overpitching. At least a factor 2, perhaps? And we may not be able to taste or detect a significant difference at that level.
Similar may be true when underpitching by a factor 2 (pitch half of the recommended pitch rate). But things may become much clearer and sooner when pitching at significantly lower rates, of say 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16.

Yeast will ferment the beer, but if the lag time is excessively long due to low pitch rate (or low viability), other microorganisms that are undoubtedly present in the wort may have gotten the upper hand (at least for a while) before the yeast does. You may be able to detect off flavors caused by the unintended fermentation(s), before the yeast took over. They're not always bad, maybe even hard to point out, but unwanted if clean fermentations are what we are after.

In microbiology one specimen will eventually prevail, crowding out all the others. Sure they can coexist for a long time, even have their own successive (and successful) runs, but eventually only one will be left. E.g. mixed fermentations, creating some of the world's best sours (Lambics). Even in those we try to pitch specific cultures or let the beer naturally inoculate with those present in the environment. IOW, we still try to have some predictability, skewing the sheer odds of pure randomness.

I sometimes have a few ounces of starter wort leftover in the pot. The lid remains on, yet it starts to ferment (spoil). The next day or the day after it starts smelling (and tasting) weird. Not always bad, although I have never had it tasting very good.

Now it takes much longer for a 5 or 10 gallon batch to become overtaken by some stray yeast or bug, that dropped while chilling and transferring, than in a few ounces of starter wort, but it will happen allowing enough time.
We just try to push the odds in favor of our yeast, so it outcompetes the bugs before it goes the other way around.

 

[Beenym88]

I used a stir plate and made a one liter starter using imperial yeast. It might have been an over pitch because I went way past expected FG but I really liked that beer. It’s not that it’s hard I was really just wondering people’s perspectives on the different cell counts. And then we could dive into dry yeast where no one agrees on the cell count and get everyone going lol

 

[IslandLizard]

I used a stir plate and made a one liter starter using imperial yeast. It might have been an over pitch because I went way past expected FG but I really liked that beer. It’s not that it’s hard I was really just wondering people’s perspectives on the different cell counts. And then we could dive into dry yeast where no one agrees on the cell count and get everyone going lol

With a high cell count of around 200 billion cells (at packaging) a 1 liter starter won't give you much growth. That is, unless the viability had been heavily reduced to say, 50-100 billion due to age and/or storage conditions.

Using high inoculation rates in starters (high cell count in a relatively small volume/low gravity wort) turns it into more of a vitality starter. It revitalizes the existing cells, great when doing that early on brew day (or the day/night before) and pitch the whole thing without cold crashing and decanting.
You may have lift off in mere hours, especially when the wort is properly oxygenated. I've seen that happening in <3 hours after pitching.

 

[Beenym88]

With a high cell count of around 200 billion cells (at packaging) a 1 liter starter won't give you much growth. That is, unless the viability had been heavily reduced to say, 50-100 billion due to age and/or storage conditions.

Using high inoculation rates in starters (high cell count in a relatively small volume/low gravity wort) turns it into more of a vitality starter. It revitalizes the existing cells, great when doing that early on brew day (or the day/night before) and pitch the whole thing without cold crashing and decanting.
You may have lift off in mere hours, especially when the wort is properly oxygenated. I've seen that happening in <3 hours after pitching.

Oh yea it was the juice yeas and it was going crazy in 3 hours first time I’ve seen anything like that

 

[GnenieGone]

I used a stir plate and made a one liter starter using imperial yeast. It might have been an over pitch because I went way past expected FG but I really liked that beer. It’s not that it’s hard I was really just wondering people’s perspectives on the different cell counts.

Yeast has a certain attenuation and that is not determined by the amount of cells (im referring to overpitching not underpitching which, as mentioned, leads to issues). If you pitch 10x recommended cells you will not go from 75% to 99% attenuation. FG is more a function of which kinds of sugars were extracted during mashing, nutrients and how much oxygen available, especially in big beers.

I've seen chatter about overpitching and I assure you its a bunch of bs. 90% of my starters build 10X more yeast then required. My method? I'll brew a 2.5gallon lighter beer (sometimes I will make a 2L starter prior to this) then I'll brew a much bigger 10+% beer and dump directly on top of the trub. Within a hour or 2 I usually have tons of activity. In addition, I've stretched this out to another big brew directly on top of that batch. This year I plan on trying 4 beers this way.

For example, I'll brew a 2.5gal Belgium Dubbel with Wyeast3787. Then dump a 5gal 11% quad, w/oxygen of course. This last grouping Belgians I did it again. All beers FG was as calculated by Beersmith and both quads came out with the same taste and character, as intended. Nothing strange in there.

The only time I won't do this is with highly hopped IPAs due to excessive amount of hops in the trub but I'll probably experiment with that this coming year.

Hope this helps and eases any concerns. BTW, Merry Christmas and happy brewing in the coming year![/QUOTE][/QUOTE]