Line Cleaning - Let's talk options

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I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Are there better products, yes. If I was going to keep and clean out my beer line. I might go with some barrier tubing. It's only $1.50 or so per foot. Then again, and yes this is a figure pulled from nowhere, 99% of bars, restaurants, and kegerator owners use vinyl tubing and don't have a problem with the way it tastes. Sure commercial systems use barrier tubing in part but there are still lots of jumper lines, lines going to the faucets, etc. that are vinyl.

I may look into this:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/u...crobial-pvc-free-beer-tubing-316-id-foot.html

But at the same time I feel like it's a solution to a problem I don't currently have. My lines are in a keezer, so they are kept at <40F, and I don't think any wild stuff is growing there. And I don't sense any "plastic" taste in my "food grade" vinyl lines - that's what "food grade" is supposed to be for, right?

I may try a few lines in my 9-tap keezer and see if it makes any difference. A lot of positive reports on morebeer could be "placebo" effect, frankly.
 
Can ya hear me now?

Oh, I see,the popular website. Well, that would be amazon.com You can search for beer line. Another member here already posted a link to some tubing on amazon. Not sure why you have an issue with that. I didn't post the link to amazon as I'm not trying to promote one vendor over another. The point is you can buy beer line cheaper online in most cases than you can buy it locally as is the case with most things. The tubing seems to get good reviews. But again I'm not trying to push some tubing here. I don't get a cut, lol.

I don't know what names you are referring to. I don't have a spreadsheet to give you. I sometimes use a pen, paper and calculator. If you would like to know how to calculate head lift, I don't see why I need to teach you. Google it, go to youtube, etc. it's math.

Perhaps this will get you started. There's a world of information out there!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_dynamic_head
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_loss

I like this one also.
http://www.pumpworld.com/total-dynamic-head-calculator.htm
 
Well, I should first say that the post title should say it all. There are many options. While I can reread the post and see that it does sound as if I have taken a hard line that I would never go back to a pump, this was not the intent. Instead, it was to list options. One of which is tho simple replace the line as, depending on the situation, it may be faster and cheaper. As pointed out lot's of taps makes this more cost prohibitive.

That being said, the pump requirement seems to be cause for a lot of discussion here. I will concede that you can pump water with just about any pump. I don't think I said otherwise. My point was that to get a flow rate of 2GPM these pumps will not do. There is some simple math here that I can't see refuted. It's fluid mechanics.

What seems to be the issue is whether or not you need 2GPM of flow rate. If you don't think you need 2GPM which is not much, that's up to you. One source of this info, which I already mentioned is found in the Brewers association draught beer quality guide. This association is made up of quite a few entities. I don't want to copy and paste from their document. The acknowledgements are on page two. If you google the pdf is free to download and is a good read.

Again if you are happy with 1GPM, a slow trickle, standing solution, or never cleaning the lines, that's up to you. I just wanted to mention all of the things I have tried and what I am doing at the moment for others as options that may not have been tried and may be out of the box thinking.

wait, why would anyone need 2 GPM (2 Gallons per MINUTE?!) rate? or even 1 GPM?
I would be happy with a trickle, or even a simple soak in warm PBW for a few hours. In fact, I suspect a soak in PBW is much better for cleaning, longer contact time.
 
I may look into this:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/u...crobial-pvc-free-beer-tubing-316-id-foot.html

But at the same time I feel like it's a solution to a problem I don't currently have. My lines are in a keezer, so they are kept at <40F, and I don't think any wild stuff is growing there. And I don't sense any "plastic" taste in my "food grade" vinyl lines - that's what "food grade" is supposed to be for, right?

I may try a few lines in my 9-tap keezer and see if it makes any difference. A lot of positive reports on morebeer could be "placebo" effect, frankly.

I agree with you. I have not had a problem with taste using standard beer line. I have bought it both at my local shop and online. As to stuff growing in the fridge, I've seen it, lol. Usually on my wife's cooking. I don't know how fast it happens but I don't know why it would be recommended if it didn't happen or even requited to clean lines in a commercial establishment.

I do have a microscope. Perhaps it would be fun to take a look at different intervals after cleaning the line.
 
But at the same time I feel like it's a solution to a problem I don't currently have. And I don't sense any "plastic" taste in my "food grade" vinyl lines - that's what "food grade" is supposed to be for, right?.


Yup. Kinda the overall point. Sometimes it pays to do more reading than typing.
 
wait, why would anyone need 2 GPM (2 Gallons per MINUTE?!) rate? or even 1 GPM?
I would be happy with a trickle, or even a simple soak in warm PBW for a few hours. In fact, I suspect a soak in PBW is much better for cleaning, longer contact time.

I don't know, lol. That's just what I have seen recommended. Here is a link to the website I have mentioned.

http://www.draughtquality.org/

Here is a direct link to the PDF

http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DQM_Full_Final.pdf

Here is a link to a Youtube video I watched. I thought it was good. It's a bit long.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S8eENLGo6g[/ame]
 
I think what I meant to say was that it's less than $12 for 100'. Also that this 100' would last almost a year. This is based on replacing a single 5' line. This would take you through most of the year. If you want to be exact, at $0.12 per foot, it would be $15.60. Obviously, you would need to take your circumstances and current prices into consideration.

I have at the moment a single tap converted refrigerator. Two of my friends both have a dual tap Costco bought kegerators. I would venture to say that 1 - 2 tap systems are more widespread than 4 - 8 taps for home use when buying kegs from local breweries. I think the homebrew guys tend to throw more taps out there for sure.

Sounds like you're admitting that your own suggestion to replace lines rather than clean them likely doesn't apply to most homebrewers, because we tend to have more than 1-2 taps. Why then post this suggestion on a homebrew forum? :p

Ridiculous assumptions not based on any facts are simply not useful. If you choose to pay two or three times the price for the same product due to markup you are not getting a better product.

Yes I am getting a better product, because IMO vinyl is a sub-par product for serving beer. I can taste it when commercial systems use vinyl lines or jumpers. No way I want that nasty plastic flavor in my beer at home. Yes, I realize that I'm sensitive to that particular flavor and that most people can't tell the difference, but it is what it is.

I'm simply trying to understand what "facts" you are not believing. I can't point you in the right direction if you don't tell me what you disagree with. Is it flow rate calculations you don't believe?

Everything you've mentioned about flow rates seems to come either directly or indirectly from the Draught Beer Quality Manual, which was designed for set up and servicing of commercial beer systems. What you may be forgetting is that homebrewers often don't use the same parameters as commercial systems. In fact, many people start homebrewing just so that they can have access to real ale, warmer serving temps, lower or higher carb levels, etc than what commercial systems allow. As documented in great detail on HBT, using the DQM suggested 1gpm flow rate for serving beer stored at warmer than commercial temps will result in nothing but foam.

Commercial systems are also exposed to vastly more contaminants that can foul the lines than the average homebrew serving system, so cleaning of the lines isn't required nearly as frequently for us as for a bar or restaurant.

FWIW the flow resistance charts and line balancing equations in the DQM are only valid at that recommended 1gpm. Homebrewers attempting to use those charts and equations outside of commercial serving parameters results in untold confusion and frustration, and thread upon thread of the same exact foaming problems, so you might say I'm not much of a fan of the DQM.

In before the lock!

Hah! This.
 
Yup. Kinda the overall point. Sometimes it pays to do more reading than typing.

Ha! well, you convinced me to try the EJ silver barrier tubing. I may need ~60 ft. for my all my keezer lines, so that's >$100 total instead of ~$8 or so for vinyl, but I may try a line or two and see if I can tell any difference. Maybe do blind tasting experiment on my neighbors. Might as well get some science from them for all the free beer I provide them!
 
Yes I am getting a better product, because IMO vinyl is a sub-par product for serving beer. I can taste it when commercial systems use vinyl lines or jumpers. No way I want that nasty plastic flavor in my beer at home. Yes, I realize that I'm sensitive to that particular flavor and that most people can't tell the difference, but it is what it is.

To clarify - you use EJ Silver barrier tubing? You really can taste the vinyl served in food-grade lines (after cleaning and repeated use)? Did you ever do a blind taste?
 
Sounds like you're admitting that your own suggestion to replace lines rather than clean them likely doesn't apply to most homebrewers, because we tend to have more than 1-2 taps. Why then post this suggestion on a homebrew forum? :p


Yes I am getting a better product, because IMO vinyl is a sub-par product for serving beer. I can taste it when commercial systems use vinyl lines or jumpers. No way I want that nasty plastic flavor in my beer at home. Yes, I realize that I'm sensitive to that particular flavor and that most people can't tell the difference, but it is what it is.



Everything you've mentioned about flow rates seems to come either directly or indirectly from the Draught Beer Quality Manual, which was designed for set up and servicing of commercial beer systems. What you may be forgetting is that homebrewers often don't use the same parameters as commercial systems. In fact, many people start homebrewing just so that they can have access to real ale, warmer serving temps, lower or higher carb levels, etc than what commercial systems allow. As documented in great detail on HBT, using the DQM suggested 1gpm flow rate for serving beer stored at warmer than commercial temps will result in nothing but foam.

Commercial systems are also exposed to vastly more contaminants that can foul the lines than the average homebrew serving system, so cleaning of the lines isn't required nearly as frequently for us as for a bar or restaurant.

FWIW the flow resistance charts and line balancing equations in the DQM are only valid at that recommended 1gpm. Homebrewers attempting to use those charts and equations outside of commercial serving parameters results in untold confusion and frustration, and thread upon thread of the same exact foaming problems, so you might say I'm not much of a fan of the DQM.



Hah! This.

Again, just talking options. I don't think holding back an option because it doesn't apply to some makes sense.

As far as flow rate goes, again if you think your lines are clean enough, then more power to you. The flow rate recommended by DQM was mentioned for cleaning but it seems that the questions about how I calculated obtaining flow rates or calculating head lift are questions. It seems as though it is being said that these calculations are wrong. I would simply suggest that anyone can calculate them if they want. Why is this an issue?
 
Cleaning should be done at higher temps, since chemical reactions (cleaning action) tend to double in speed with every 10°C in temperature increase.

So run a concentrated PBW (not PBR!) solution through all those lines in parallel for 1 hour at 160°F every month (or so) and your lines are cleaner than any bar's.

Has anyone noticed that the $12/100ft tubing only has 1/16" walls, not 1/8"? That's not beer line, that's utility tubing they sell in big box and hardware stores! Not comparable in any fashion to Bevlex 200 line, many of us use as well as bars.

I use BevLex Ultra and never had any problem cleaning them thoroughly, using the above mentioned, hot cleaning process. Now that beer line has a PET coating on the inside, so it's slicker and a bit more resilient to build up. But replacing good line every 2 weeks is a huge waste beyond any good reason!
 
I usually just run some diesel through my lines once a keg kicks. I figure that will kill just about anything in them. Flush with the next beer. Viola. Ready to go.

Hah! JohnnyO?

To clarify - you use EJ Silver barrier tubing? You really can taste the vinyl served in food-grade lines (after cleaning and repeated use)? Did you ever do a blind taste?

I use Accuflex Bev-Seal Ultra line, but the EJ Silver is a good product as well. And yes, I can absolutely taste a difference, but only if the beer has been sitting in the line for an hour or longer. Before I found barrier tubing I'd simply dump the first ~4oz from each tap at the start of every drinking session.

If you want to do a blind taste test yourself, split the same beer into 2 kegs, and put barrier tubing on one and vinyl on the other. Pour a few oz through each to fill the lines. Let sit 24hrs, pour 4-6oz from each, and see if you can taste (and even smell) the difference.
 
In before the lock!

Thought I'd check in.

god_popcorn.gif
 
Cleaning should be done at higher temps, since chemical reactions (cleaning action) tend to double in speed with every 10°C in temperature increase.

So run a concentrated PBW (not PBR!) solution through all those lines in parallel for 1 hour at 160°F every month (or so) and your lines are cleaner than any bar's.

Has anyone noticed that the $12/100ft tubing only has 1/16" walls, not 1/8"? That's not beer line, that's utility tubing they sell in big box and hardware stores! Not comparable in any fashion to Bevlex 200 line, many of us use as well as bars.

I use BevLex Ultra and never had any problem cleaning them thoroughly, using the above mentioned, hot cleaning process. Now that beer line has a PET coating on the inside, so it's slicker and a bit more resilient to build up. But replacing good line every 2 weeks is a huge waste beyond any good reason!

Your choice of beer line is not really my point. That's why I didn't list it to begin with. http://www.hopgoblin.com/bevlex-200-p/kg87901.htm Here your bevlex 200 is $0.31 per foot. I bet a 100 foot roll is cheaper. But that would cost me $1.55 to replace on one tap which is what I have. I am sure I'm not the only one with one tap. That would cost $10 a year to replace every other month as you say. Still faster, still no buying of chemicals, still to water or electricity used. I wouldn't recommend to the one tap guy to spend a bunch of time cleaning let alone buying pumps and fittings and such.

Now as tap numbers increase, sure clean those lines at whatever flow rate you think will get the job done, lol.
 
So by your logic, replacing $0.59/per foot beer line every two weeks is the ideal way to maintain clean fresh tasting beer at the tap?

I have 4 taps, each with 10ft lines. That's about $47.20 I'd be throwing into the landfill just to have 'fresh' beer on tap. One could buy a simple sump pump and some connectors and it would pay for itself in a month.


I ran the typical PVC beer line (the thick wall stuff) for over a year before I decided to replace it with the antimicrobial line I run now. I flushed the lines with warm water and starsan after a keg kicked. I'd do a PBW (oops...I mean "PBR" ;) ) wash after every 3-4 kegs were run on that line.



Suggesting to throw away and replace beer lines every two weeks is just bad advice imo. A simple cleaning regiment is all that's needed. One should be as diligent on the serving end with sanitation as they would be on the brewing end. The money spent on new beer lines every two weeks could pay for a lot of other useful things for your brewery in a year's time.

My setup is a simple sump pump in a 2 gallon pot that recirculates PBW/rinse water, and starsan via an extra 3 port air distributor that I use to clean multiple lines at the same time. I have one of those herb infuser balls that I put small parts in (guts from the beer disconnects) that sits in the pot with the pump so cleaner/rinse/sanitizer is ran though those parts as well. It gets the job done, doesn't take a lot of time, and nothing is thrown away in the end.

My setup.

Tap%20Cleaner%2001_zpssypgz0lf.jpg
 
As far as flow rate goes, again if you think your lines are clean enough, then more power to you. The flow rate recommended by DQM was mentioned for cleaning but it seems that the questions about how I calculated obtaining flow rates or calculating head lift are questions. It seems as though it is being said that these calculations are wrong. I would simply suggest that anyone can calculate them if they want. Why is this an issue?

I do think they're plenty clean enough, partially because the line I use is exponentially easier to clean and less likely to grow stuff than vinyl line, and also has significantly less resistance, which means a lower head requirement from my cleaning pump to get the same flow rate. And secondly because my system isn't subject to the same unsanitary conditions that commercial systems are. I clean and sanitize my keg couplers and the portion of the keg it connects to before connecting them, I don't have to worry about bartenders practicing bad pouring habits like allowing the faucet to get submerged, and my faucets are rarely in use unlike commercial faucets that are open constantly.

I didn't see anyone suggest the head and flow rate figures you'd mentioned were wrong, but there was some question (from others, not me) about whether 2gpm was really necessary. And I wasn't questioning your flow rate calcs for cleaning, was merely pointing out that the 1gpm flow rate for serving that you referenced multiple times isn't valid for many (read most) homebrewers.
 
Your choice of beer line is not really my point. That's why I didn't list it to begin with. http://www.hopgoblin.com/bevlex-200-p/kg87901.htm Here your bevlex 200 is $0.31 per foot. I bet a 100 foot roll is cheaper. But that would cost me $1.55 to replace on one tap which is what I have. I am sure I'm not the only one with one tap. That would cost $10 a year to replace every other month as you say. Still faster, still no buying of chemicals, still to water or electricity used. I wouldn't recommend to the one tap guy to spend a bunch of time cleaning let alone buying pumps and fittings and such.

Now as tap numbers increase, sure clean those lines at whatever flow rate you think will get the job done, lol.

First, that's not the line I use, that's crappy vinyl line. ;) Second, you've obviously never worked with bev-seal ultra line, because it's very stiff and such a PITA to work with that it's way faster and easier to clean it constantly than it is to replace it. :D

Yeah, yeah, I know that John Guest style QD fittings work well with Accuflex Bev-seal ultra line. ;)
 
So by your logic, replacing $0.59/per foot beer line every two weeks is the ideal way to maintain clean fresh tasting beer at the tap?

Tap%20Cleaner%2001_zpssypgz0lf.jpg

The answer to that again is that it depends. If you're replace one 5' line 6 times a year, then sure. One 10' line, two 5' lines, sure.

I'm throwing it out there as an option. If you do the math you can decide if it makes sense for you. I mean hell, even if it's just a little bit more expensive. I'd do it to save time. Flow rates aside. After listening to many here I am considering only changing my line every other month. To me, the idea just got better. Now will I replace 4 lines twice a week? probably not, I already have my pump built which was another options mentioned.
 
First, that's not the line I use, that's crappy vinyl line. ;) Second, you've obviously never worked with bev-seal ultra line, because it's very stiff and such a PITA to work with that it's way faster and easier to clean it constantly than it is to replace it. :D

Yeah, yeah, I know that John Guest style QD fittings work well with Accuflex Bev-seal ultra line. ;)

Got a spreadsheet to prove it?

I wo believe it if it's not on a spreadsheet.
 
First, that's not the line I use, that's crappy vinyl line. ;) Second, you've obviously never worked with bev-seal ultra line, because it's very stiff and such a PITA to work with that it's way faster and easier to clean it constantly than it is to replace it. :D

Yeah, yeah, I know that John Guest style QD fittings work well with Accuflex Bev-seal ultra line. ;)

lol, ok well you said bevlex 200.

Still, http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/accuflex-bev-seal-ultra-3-16-50/
this is $0.32 per foot so that doesn't change anything does it.
 
I had a $20 bill. I wanted 2 $10's. I threw the $20 in the trash because it was easier than getting change.
 
I usually brew ten gallon batches (two 5 gallon corny kegs per batch). I thought I was being pretty good about cleaning my beer lines after every batch is finished and before tapping a new keg from a new batch. I have been very happy with the results so far and have not seen any beer stone or build up in my lines yet after cleaning them this way. I also have not gotten any off flavors. For me at my home brew level I think my cleaning regime serves me well. I wonder if it has to do with the amount of beer that is put through the lines at the pub/commercial level that requires the every two week cleaning from the food inspectors, or is just the beer sitting in the lines enough to require it even at the home brew level?
 
I also love how everyone that is complaining about vinyl line leaching flavors into the beer doesn't care about the oils and lubricants in cheap pond pumps.:D
 
I usually brew ten gallon batches (two 5 gallon corny kegs per batch). I thought I was being pretty good about cleaning my beer lines after every batch is finished and before tapping a new keg from a new batch. I have been very happy with the results so far and have not seen any beer stone or build up in my lines yet after cleaning them this way. I also have not gotten any off flavors. For me at my home brew level I think my cleaning regime serves me well. I wonder if it has to do with the amount of beer that is put through the lines at the pub/commercial level that requires the every two week cleaning from the food inspectors, or is just the beer sitting in the lines enough to require it even at the home brew level?

I really don't know. This really does have me intrigued a bit. I think I really am going to break out the microscope and see how fast the stuff grows. Even if you can see it, I guess it does not matter if you can't taste it or if you don't mind the taste.
 
I also love how everyone that is complaining about vinyl line leaching flavors into the beer doesn't care about the oils and lubricants in cheap pond pumps.:D

I like to replace it with a multipurpose food grade lubricant which you can buy at a popular website. :D
 
I had a $20 bill. I wanted 2 $10's. I threw the $20 in the trash because it was easier than getting change.

I guess this just comes down to how much your time is worth to you, or put another way how lazy you are. I won't drive across town to save a couple of bucks on gas but I drive a small car. If I had a 60 gal tank and I could save $15 a week, sure.

I mean think of it this way. A one tap or two tap guy could spend $10 - $20 a year and take care of his lines in 5 minutes. Or he could spend that much in cleaner a year and spend 30 minutes. I mean we're not talking about the cost of a pump and fittings and adapters either. Sure there's cheap stuff but it adds up. If you spend $50 on that stuff, it's a 5 year payout. That sucks! If you bought a $500 pump system instead of building your own, that's a 50 year payout. Hell, what's $500 bucks invested in 50 years, lol. What if the pump goes bad and you need to replace it in 3 years. I'm just saying there are situations where it is better to replace your lines. Better for everyone, no. Better for all situations, no. But for some, yes.
 
I like to replace it with a multipurpose food grade lubricant which you can buy at a popular website. :D

LOL, good one, do you replace all the seals and other surfaces as well? Still funny.
 
I clean my lines when the keg attached to it kicks. I work it into my keg cleaning process. Give the keg a quick rinse with water. Add Pabst Blue Ribbon(TM) Line Cleaning Solution to the keg, and run it through the line. Then do the same with Star San. Then run a bit of CO2 through the line to clear it out.

Easy peasy. Arbitrarily cleaning the lines every two-weeks is insane, let alone needlessly replacing them.

This is exactly what I do. Keg kicks... keg, faucet and line all get cleaned together. A year in and no known problem so far. CO2 isn't to the price point where I'm worried about cost yet.
 
I just loop two open taps with silicone tubing and push cleanser, then Starsan, with CO2 from one keg to the other. I guess I just never considered making my life more complicated. I may have to get into masochism: I hate terminating tubes.
 
That Amazon line is thin-wall, most 3/16" ID straight PVC beer line is 7/16" OD to prevent ballooning...

Cheers!

I've used this line multiple times and recommend it for people who want to save some money. I have not used it at a pressure over 12 psi though. I've never had an off flavor from it either, though I always flush a couple ounces through it before I pour myself a glass if it's been longer than a day. You just have to remember to coil it up nicely so you don't kink it.

The 7/16" OD line is much more durable though. It isn't as cheap (but still a great price) at ritebrew.com, which is what I'm rocking right now.

http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/843535.htm

:mug:

Edit: It appears through all this nonsensical thread that pretty much everything I posted has been covered. Doh!
 
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