Limiting oxidation: effect of purging headspace O2 in a bottle conditioned IPA

[VikeMan]

The heat likely accelerated the color change but for the purposes of this experiment that's definitely a good thing.

Higher temperatures definitely accelerate staling. But your pics are pretty strong evidence that one of those beers had more DO than the other and that some of that DO was not scavenged by yeast.

I (usually) keg my beers, and I can say without hesitation that my hoppy beers stayed fresh longer when I started purging my kegs, and that I got another boost when I started doing closed transfers. Live yeast may scavenge some O2 even when it's not building sterols etc., but it's not unlimited magic.

Not exactly data, here's what two of the most successful brewers in the country have to say about yeast utilizing O2 that comes from bottle headspace:

John Mallet (Bells) said that the yeast will use about a third of the O2. (Bells also CO2 purges and caps on foam, so one would have to assume John is talking about a smaller amount of O2 than a homebrewer would typically get in the headspace.)

Garrett Oliver (Brooklyn) said "Yeast can remove small amounts of dissolved oxygen from beer, but very little from the bottle headspace air, which means these benefits will only attain to breweries using sophisticated brewing methods and very good packaging equipment."

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

Higher temperatures definitely accelerate staling. But your pics are pretty strong evidence that one of those beers had more DO than the other and that some of that DO was not scavenged by yeast.

I (usually) keg my beers, and I can say without hesitation that my hoppy beers stayed fresh longer when I started purging my kegs, and that I got another boost when I started doing closed transfers. Live yeast may scavenge some O2 even when it's not building sterols etc., but it's not unlimited magic.

Not exactly data, here's what two of the most successful brewers in the country have to say about yeast utilizing O2 that comes from bottle headspace:

John Mallet (Bells) said that the yeast will use about a third of the O2. (Bells also CO2 purges and caps on foam, so one would have to assume John is talking about a smaller amount of O2 than a homebrewer would typically get in the headspace.)

Garrett Oliver (Brooklyn) said "Yeast can remove small amounts of dissolved oxygen from beer, but very little from the bottle headspace air, which means these benefits will only attain to breweries using sophisticated brewing methods and very good packaging equipment."

Thank you! That's exactly what I'm saying all along. Yeast consume very little O2 from bottled beer(I believe negligible amounts for our purposes) and probably no O2 from headspace. Hece this thread here trying to figure out how to minimize head space O2.
Unforunately I think the tread is derailed now.

Can you please share the links for those quotes? I would like to read more.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I always find it super amusing, that folks with no way of measuring anything, are so sure about everything.

 

[VikeMan]

Can you please share the links for those quotes? I would like to read more.

The John Mallett comment was heard in person by someone. -> Here's <- a discussion of that.

The Garrett Oliver quote is from the book The Oxford Companion to Beer. -> Here's <- a link to that article from the book.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

I always find it super amusing, that folks with no way of measuring anything, are so sure about everything.

Yeah, those two dudes Mallet and Oliver have no idea what they are talking about.
As I said, it would be amazing if you would measure it and sharw the results with us.

 

[Die_Beerery]

The John Mallett comment was heard in person by someone. -> Here's <- a discussion of that.

Hey, strange

Post 5 of that is quite interesting

 

[VikeMan]

Post 5 of that is quite interesting

Quite. It's not plagiarism when one copies and pastes their own work.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Quite. It's not plagiarism when one copies and pastes their own work.

For sure! Post 6 isn't bad either.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

For sure! Post 6 isn't bad either.

How about rading the excerpt from a book instead of forum?
Or maybe an article from an expert on the subject?
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

You know, people who have the ability and who's job is to measure everything.
It's called learning.
Or you only read what you write?
And thank you for totaly killing this thread.

 

[Die_Beerery]

How about rading the excerpt from a book instead of forum?
Or maybe an article from an expert on the subject?

Here's a snippet of my resources.
http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/
Along with about 20 professional texts, and professional schooling from 2 pretty prestigious brewing mecca's.

But, what do they know, am I right.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

Here's a snippet of my resources.
http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/
Along with about 20 professional texts, and professional schooling from 2 pretty prestigious brewing mecca's.

But, what do they know, am I right.

You obvuously lovet o argue, but that's not what I'm here for.
So here you go. Yes, you are right, yeast eat up all the oxygen from bottle head space while fermenting sugar. Thank you for opening everyones eyes on that fact.
Hope that made tour day.
I'm out, cheers

 

[Die_Beerery]

So here you go. Yes, you are right, yeast eat up all the oxygen from bottle head space while fermenting sugar. Thank you for opening everyones eyes on that fact.

Thats the problem, thats not what I am saying at all!

 

[VikeMan]

Yes, you are right, yeast eat up all the oxygen from bottle head space while fermenting sugar.

I don't think @Die_Beerery was saying that.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

Thats the problem, thats not what I am saying at all!

Well then we agree. But I have to say you have a very strange way of saying you agree with someone.
You basicaly said, on at least two ocasions, we have no idea what we are talking about. So what am I supose to asume, that you are agreeing with me?
And even If you are correct that's not the way to comunicate with other people. You come accros as cocky and insecure. And I'm saying this with best intentions possible.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

MoreBeer provides a good service to the home brewing community by republishing (for free) many of the articles from Brewing Techniques magazine. It would be more valuable if they would include the original publication date (which for Brewing Techniques is from the mid to late 1990s):

Brewing Techniques Magazine was published from 1993 to 1999. It was full of great articles on homebrewing. Unfortunately it is now defunct.

In 2012, MoreBeer purchased the entire back stock of printed magazines. Those are available in the Homebrewing Books & Magazines section of MoreBeer’s website. They are mostly on page 2 of that section.

MoreBeer has kindly made a number of the articles from Brewing Techniques available in the articles section of this website for free. Homebrewing Articles at MoreBeer

-- https://www.homebrewfinds.com/2012/05/brewing-techniques-magazine.html

A google search on "brewing techniques" "The Biochemistry of Yeast" "Tracy Aquilla" suggests the article was published in the March/April 1997 (vol 5 no 2) magazine.

And, obviously, old doesn't imply outdated. Just be aware that the article appears to have been originally published in 1997, and republished in 2013.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

MoreBeer provides a good service to the home brewing community by republishing (for free) many of the articles from Brewing Techniques magazine. It would be more valuable if they would include the original publication date (which for Brewing Techniques is from the mid to late 1990s):



-- https://www.homebrewfinds.com/2012/05/brewing-techniques-magazine.html

A google search on "brewing techniques" "The Biochemistry of Yeast" "Tracy Aquilla" suggests the article was published in the March/April 1997 (vol 5 no 2) magazine.

And, obviously, old doesn't imply outdated. Just be aware that the article appears to have been originally published in 1997, and republished in 2013.

Thanks for that.
And I was made aware that Die_Beerery is an expert on the subject. I would love to learn more from him but it's hard to learn from a person calling everyone idiots for not having 12 DO measuring instruments.
Need to work on comunication there

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

Just one last think.
I apologise to OP I got into this discussion and helped kill the thread.
Hope to talk to you all again some other time, (including Die_Beerery ) and that we will have more constructive discussion.
Cheers

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Just one last think.
I apologise to OP I got into this discussion and helped kill the thread.
Hope to talk to you all again some other time, (including Die_Beerery ) and that we will have more constructive discussion.
Cheers

No worries, man! You did not kill the thread, nor has anyone else in my opinion.
If anything it has gotten entertaining here in the last couple of days

 

[InspectorJon]

I've been bottling my heavily hopped NEIPA's for years with no color degradation, even months after. The tips here are pretty spot on.

- Bottle directly from fermenter with a bottling wand
- Batch prime in fermenter, wait 15-30 minutes for yeast to wake up before bottling
- Purge bottle before adding beer, and after if you have headspace.

Can you explain the batch priming process in the fermenter? I use a 5 gallon glass carboy with a small opening on the top. How do you ensure the sugar gets into even solution and not stir up all the gunk in the bottom?

For what it is worth, I fill bottles between 1 cm and .5 cm from the top and it has worked well. You just don't get that satisfying pfft sound when you pop the top on a bottle.

 

[Bilsch]

Ok, that's it then. You sloved the problem. There is no reason to do anything as yeast will eat up all the oxygen.
You can go on and bottle your NEIPAs and rely just on yeast to do the job.
I will try to think of other ways, thank you very much.
I just don't know how did you end up on this thread?

Just to refresh your memory.. you and I were discussing whether yeast was capable of switching to respiration and remove oxygen in the package. My contention was and still is that yeast is capable to doing that. However I never said it could undo bad bottling practices, poor brewing habits or clean up huge headspace and save your beer. In brewing getting good results, as with most things in life, comes from of a combination of best practices.

This is what I would suggest you do to keep your NEIPAs as fresh as possible for as long as possible.
Keep oxygen exposure minimal in all phases of the brewing process to maximize the amount of antioxidants in your beer. Eliminate copper in your system and try to minimize Fe, Cu, Zn and Al in your wort and or use gallotannins. Limit the amount of fatty acid containing trub that goes into your fermenter. Use very fresh yeast with a proper sized pitch and aerate the the correct amount. Do not let your yeast ferment out and stall in the fermenter but instead spund directly from the fermenter into the keg or bottle, with some extract remaining. If bottling, limit the amount of headspace and or purge with CO2 or other inert gas. If kegging rack into a liquid purged keg. Do not force carbonate with bottled CO2. And finally keep it cold.

How did I get in here? My apologies, I must have missed the private meeting sign on the door.

 

[Bilsch]

How about rading the excerpt from a book instead of forum?
Or maybe an article from an expert on the subject?
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

You know, people who have the ability and who's job is to measure everything.
It's called learning.
Or you only read what you write?
And thank you for totaly killing this thread.

I'm wondering if you read the article you posted.
Quoting from the article..
"Although brewers’ yeast is able to use both respiration and fermentation metabolic pathways, it does not respire if a relatively high concentration of fermentable sugar is available, even when ample oxygen is available for respiration."

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

I'm wondering if you read the article you posted.
Quoting from the article..
"Although brewers’ yeast is able to use both respiration and fermentation metabolic pathways, it does not respire if a relatively high concentration of fermentable sugar is available, even when ample oxygen is available for respiration."

I read it more than a few times so I know that you copied it up until where it says what they mean by "relatively high concentration".
That is not cool, to leave out information like that. That's not helping anyone..
I generaly agee with you tho.
I said it a few times now but let me say it again. I think ( and I may be wrong) that yeast don't consume much oxygen when bottling. But that is not important as it's not a variable we control. Why is everybody focusin on that so much??
What I care for is information in your previous post. It would be great if you could share some links so we can read more about it.
It's not that I dont beleive you but I love to know exatcly why I'm doing something before I actualy do it. And I'm sure you would agree with that too.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Can you explain the batch priming process in the fermenter? I use a 5 gallon glass carboy with a small opening on the top. How do you ensure the sugar gets into even solution and not stir up all the gunk in the bottom?

That would have been exactly my next question @ryanm8 , too. Wonder how is possible to mix in the sugar solution without stirring up too much yeast sediment.

 

[Bilsch]

I read it more than a few times so I know that you copied it up until where it says what they mean by "relatively high concentration".
That is not cool, to leave out information like that. That's not helping anyone..
I generaly agee with you tho.
I said it a few times now but let me say it again. I think ( and I may be wrong) that yeast don't consume much oxygen when bottling. But that is not important as it's not a variable we control. Why is everybody focusin on that so much??
What I care for is information in your previous post. It would be great if you could share some links so we can read more about it.
It's not that I dont beleive you but I love to know exatcly why I'm doing something before I actualy do it. And I'm sure you would agree with that too.

The quote I used was exactly the part relevant to our discussion here, whether yeast at the time of bottling are capable of consuming oxygen. You keep tossing Crabtree effect in here and this article like they specifically preclude yeast from respiring and consuming oxygen at any time after the lag phase but you miss the details in there like the requirement for a certain level of fermentable sugars be present to suppress respiration. At the time of bottling there is very little fermentable sugar left and therefore respiration is possible and does happen.

Look I don't enjoy this belabored back and forth with you however I don't want other readers, who wont take the time to research this topic, to get the idea yeast can not or will not consume oxygen in the beer at any time after fermentation starts. This is simply untrue. How much they can metabolize and under what conditions, is the thing we should be discussing here.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

How much they can metabolize and under what conditions, is the thing we should be discussing here.

Exactly...I think we all agree here that yeast is not able to pick up the complete amount of O2 from a bottle headspace. The evidence is strong enough, right?
Yet to know when and how yeast can help along, is relevant and can have very practical implications for one's brewing and packaging process.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

The quote I used was exactly the part relevant to our discussion here, whether yeast at the time of bottling are capable of consuming oxygen. You keep tossing Crabtree effect in here and this article like they specifically preclude yeast from respiring and consuming oxygen at any time after the lag phase but you miss the details in there like the requirement for a certain level of fermentable sugars be present to suppress respiration. At the time of bottling there is very little fermentable sugar left and therefore respiration is possible and does happen.

Look I don't enjoy this belabored back and forth with you however I don't want other readers, who wont take the time to research this topic, to get the idea yeast can not or will not consume oxygen in the beer at any time after fermentation starts. This is simply untrue. How much they can metabolize and under what conditions, is the thing we should be discussing here.

I agree. I would love to know how much O2 yeast can consume under those conditions. But I cant find any data on that.
And again, that is not a variable we control anyways so I would like to focus more on variables we can control. Hope we can somwhat agree on this?
I just have to add, for the sake of discusion, that although fermented beer is low in sugar we do add sugar when bottleing so it's actually not as low at that point.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

The quote I used was exactly the part relevant to our discussion here, whether yeast at the time of bottling are capable of consuming oxygen. You keep tossing Crabtree effect in here and this article like they specifically preclude yeast from respiring and consuming oxygen at any time after the lag phase but you miss the details in there like the requirement for a certain level of fermentable sugars be present to suppress respiration. At the time of bottling there is very little fermentable sugar left and therefore respiration is possible and does happen.

Look I don't enjoy this belabored back and forth with you however I don't want other readers, who wont take the time to research this topic, to get the idea yeast can not or will not consume oxygen in the beer at any time after fermentation starts. This is simply untrue. How much they can metabolize and under what conditions, is the thing we should be discussing here.

And is there really less than 0.4% fermemtable sugar as the article is sugesting is required for respiration?
I tought there is not, but I'm happy to change my mind if you can explain it to me. Honestly

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

And again, that is not a variable we control anyways so I would like to focus more on variables we can control.

Sorry but I have to disagree again with you. Of course we can control it somehow. Through temperature, among other things. For example by deciding not to cold crash before packaging, and so on...

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

Sorry but I have to disagree again with you. Of course we can control it somehow. Through temperature, among other things. For example by deciding not to cold crash before packaging, and so on...

Sorry I didn't get that? What's the link between cold crashing and yeast consuming O2 in the bottle?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

If you cold crash and package your beer cold, there will be inevitably a lag time in yeast activity. I.e., it won't be able to start immediately working on the priming sugar once in the bottle. That may lead to increased oxidation. (I'm always assuming that active yeast can scavenge O2 in the bottle ).

 

[Bilsch]

Good tip there for the folks, like myself, who are bottling cold, right after the cold crash, and decide to leave only small head space.

Yes indeed, it's a great idea use a smaller headspace. Why do people use the amount of headspace they do anyway? Probably because that is what they see on commercial beers. It is my experience 1/4" is more then enough to allow for expansion and contraction of the liquid and not rupture the bottle. It is also better from a safety aspect to have a smaller gas bubble in the bottle so that in case of a failure there is much less mess from the expanding gas pressure bubble.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I always find it super amusing, that folks with no way of measuring anything, are so sure about everything.

Folks on here have shown repeatedly that they DO have a way to measure O2 in the bottle. The colour change in two beers bottled in different ways. It's perfectly valid measurement. No, it doesn't give a ppm or ppb number for O2 and can't show exactly where and when the O2 is moving into the beer, but it does work exactly in the way it's intended - it shows which of two (or three) bottling methods leads to less oxidation of the contained beer. At the end of the day, beer that better suits the drinkers taster is what we're after.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

If you cold crash and package your beer cold, there will be inevitably a lag time in yeast activity. I.e., it won't be able to start immediately working on the priming sugar once in the bottle. That may lead to increased oxidation. (I'm always assuming that active yeast can scavenge O2 in the bottle ).

I know what you meant now.
For what is worth I cold crash and visible signs if oxydation in my example started between days five and nine.

 

[AlexTurnbull]

Hi Guys,

Just came across the forum and thread. Has anyone tried topping up the headspace in the bottle with CO² prior to capping? The CO² should displace the air/oxygen.

CO² can be made easily with baking soda and vinagar - an internet search "Science make CO2" will describe how.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

Yes indeed, it's a great idea use a smaller headspace. Why do people use the amount of headspace they do anyway? Probably because that is what they see on commercial beers. It is my experience 1/4" is more then enough to allow for expansion and contraction of the liquid and not rupture the bottle. It is also better from a safety aspect to have a smaller gas bubble in the bottle so that in case of a failure there is much less mess from the expanding gas pressure bubble.

For me is how much space my bottling wand leaves when I pull it out. But I'm thinking of changing my process, and less head space certainly makes sense.
Do you think would it even be worth thinking about ways of purging and filling a bottle like you would do with keg?

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

Hi Guys,

Just came across the forum and thread. Has anyone tried topping up the headspace in the bottle with CO² prior to capping? The CO² should displace the air/oxygen.

CO² can be made easily with baking soda and vinagar - an internet search "Science make CO2" will describe how.

That's exatcly how this thread started. See first post from OP amd there are a few good examples after that as well.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Hi Guys,

Just came across the forum and thread. Has anyone tried topping up the headspace in the bottle with CO² prior to capping? The CO² should displace the air/oxygen.
.

Hi, have a look at post number one in this thread, among others..;-)

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I know what you meant now.
For what is worth I cold crash and visible signs if oxydation in my example started between days five and nine.

Yeah, by all means I'm not saying cold crashing is a bad thing per se, and that it must lead inevitably to more oxidation...it is just one variable among many that can have an influence on the way our little friends behave...

 

[AlexTurnbull]

OK. I think the point I was making has been misunderstood.

Instead of buying CO² in a can - making it on demand. Cheap and easy.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

OK. I think the point I was making has been misunderstood.

Instead of buying CO² in a can - making it on demand. Cheap and easy.

You can easily colect it from fermentation but how would you go about purging with it?