Let's design a BIG strong ale

[Chrispy92]

Hey everyone I'm in need of help with designing a BIG strong ale. My initial hopes are to get something into the 12-14% range and resemble the sort of style as Rouge Dead Guy, just an imperial version.

I've made plenty of beers up around the 8% mark but not much higher. So wanted some help with designing the recipe so as to make sure my time, efforts and investments are not wasted!

I need help picking a good yeast, I wouldn't mind trying something a little bit different/ estery to give the beer a bit more complexity, as long as it will tolerate the ABV and still be viable to bottle condition with. It's also winter here and will be fermenting in ambient temps of around 15c (high 50's F ).

I want to keep the grain bill fairly simple with good malt character so thinking of going a basic 80% pale to 20% Munich. Maybe a small blend of caramunich/caraaroma as well?

As per most of the dead guy clones I'll stick with saaz as the major flavour contributor with a 30-flameout addition. My question is when dealing with higher gravity worts I am going to get less utilisation right? So what quantities should I be aiming for in these additions?

Any help or suggestions to help getting this attempt kick started would be much appreciated!

NB: going for a full 5 gallon batch

 

[BrewZer]

I just finished bottling a big Belgian Tripel in the style of Piraat -- call it Black Pearl Ale.

I used Wyeast 3787. OG was 1.128. FG after 7 days was 1.016. I let it sit another week. ABV reads 14.4%.

I pitched two bags due to the high gravity and added the recommended amount of Wyeast Yeast Nutrient during the boil, along with vigorous aeration when I added cold water to my partial boil to bring it up to 5.5 gals. You could probably propagate enough out of one smack pack in a few days.

Initial wort temp was ~60 degrees, but the yeast handled it well and I had heavy kreusen in about 17 hours and vigorous bubbling for 3 more days after that.

3787 is estery, with pronounced banana notes early on, but those mellowed out in the additional week in the primary. It leaves a lingering alcohol footprint in the aftertaste.

I'm sure you don't want to reproduce the same beer, so I'll just add that I used 1.5 oz of Northern Brewer for bittering, and the finished profile has a balanced hoppiness, nicely offsetting the otherwise fairly sweet malts/sugar/grains...

Good luck. I can give more suggestions if you'd like, as long as you don't mind talking to an extract/adjunct grain brewer...

 

[seatazzz]

If you want to keep to the Dead Guy style use both Saaz & perle hops. Saaz at 60 and Perle at 30. For the grain bill, Dead Guy is more of an amber so I would go 80% 2 row, 10% Carapils/Dextrine, 5% Cara 60, and 5% Dark Munich 60. For the yeast, if you don't mind the esters, go for something fast working like Notty or Pacman (I use dry yeast exclusively so Notty is my go-to). I've made a Dead Guy clone a few times and I've found a little higher on the mash temp (around 154-156) works fairly well. If you're looking to make this a BIG beer, I would also consider replacing about 50% of the 2-row with Maris Otter. Another option would be to take about 20% of your first runnings (1 or a bit more gallons in a 5 gallon batch) and boiling it down separately to increase the gravity, and adding this boiled-down version about 10 minutes left in the boil. You would need to increase your sparge volume to make up for the lost initial runnings volume and may want to do a second sparge. I'm not quite clear on the strike volume needed as well. Just off the cuff and my 2 cents.

 

[JordanKnudson]

If you want to keep to the Dead Guy style use both Saaz & perle hops. Saaz at 60 and Perle at 30. For the grain bill, Dead Guy is more of an amber so I would go 80% 2 row, 10% Carapils/Dextrine, 5% Cara 60, and 5% Dark Munich 60. For the yeast, if you don't mind the esters, go for something fast working like Notty or Pacman (I use dry yeast exclusively so Notty is my go-to). I've made a Dead Guy clone a few times and I've found a little higher on the mash temp (around 154-156) works fairly well. If you're looking to make this a BIG beer, I would also consider replacing about 50% of the 2-row with Maris Otter. Another option would be to take about 20% of your first runnings (1 or a bit more gallons in a 5 gallon batch) and boiling it down separately to increase the gravity, and adding this boiled-down version about 10 minutes left in the boil. You would need to increase your sparge volume to make up for the lost initial runnings volume and may want to do a second sparge. I'm not quite clear on the strike volume needed as well. Just off the cuff and my 2 cents.

I want to first off mention that I'm not saying that the above is bad advice -- it is definitely a route you could go and be successful. That said, I would personally keep the following in mind...

1. If you're making a really big beer, you'll already be looking at a full body and high FG just using base malts and mashing at typical temperatures (148-152ish). So, I wouldn't go throwing in much carapils or crystal malt, and I wouldn't mash high. I've done brews like that before, and while they came out okay, they invariably finish at a higher gravity than I want and have a bit too much sweetness (like, more than a little). If you just use a mix of 2-row (or Maris Otter, which I agree would be a great choice) and dark Munich and aim for an OG up above 1.100 (the specifics would depend on your yeast choice/target FG/target ABV), you really won't need much else. Maybe a little carafa for color adjustment, maybe not even that.

2. The boil down method doesn't increase gravity. Let me clarify: it obviously increases the gravity of that one gallon of first runnings as it concentrates in the pot. However, you add it back to the main boil and increase your water volume in the batch to end up with the same volume of wort at the end. So it just balances out. This technique is not for affecting gravity, but rather for creating some melanoidens and caramelization that might not otherwise occur in the full volume boil (read: intensify the malt flavor).

 

[Chrispy92]

@seatazz all valid considerations. I like the idea of the Maris otter to bring a bit more of a malt backbone. Why do you suggest the 10% carapils though, purely to build a bit of body? I have recently got a new pot so I think I will try the method of boiling down a % of my first runnings seperately to try and get a bit of caramelisation of the wort and add some depth.

I've never used Notty, how would it compare to S05 in terms of clean ferment?

Also I thought i saw the dead guy clones have perle at 60 and saaz at 30? You sound like you've brewed a clone before so any more suggestions on a good ratio and hop times to get a similar flavour profile would be awesome!

@Brewzer no problem with chatting to an extract/adjunct brewer I'm thinking I may need to have some extract on hand cold brew day incase I don't hit my desired gravity. I was looking into a few of the Trappist yeasts and good to hear the one you used fermented well at a bit of a lower temperature. You say you've just finished bottling? Let me know how strong the phenolic and estery flavours are when you sample one. I'd assume they would be slightly subdued due to the lower ferment temp?

 

[applescrap]

John blichmann did a podcast on making big beers, listen to it as it might have some of the answers you seek.

 

[Clef051]

I haven't made a dead guy clone, but I'm sure there are many out there, I'd recommend starting with the base recipe and increasing the base malt to get to the gravity you want. Maybe add some simple sugars such as corn sugar also that the yeast could easily munch on. Going for a beer that big is going to end up with a fairly high finally gravity anyways, which will bring plenty of sweetness to it. Mash low, It will already be a stressful environment for the yeast. I'd probably increase the hops to balance out the sweetness

 

[Kent88]

I haven't heard of Rouge Dead Guy.

My standard recommendations for a high-gravity wort:

• Plenty of Healthy Cells
• Aerate (pure oxygen in this case) at 12 to 18 hours post pitch
• Ferment at the higher temp side of the yeasts' tolerance
• Add any extra simple sugars at high krausen
• Use yeast nutrient (for barleywines, doppelbock and anything else above 1.090)
• Start this well in advance of when you want to serve it

I have heard about one or two brewers who took a mead-like approach to big beers. Aerate with pure oxygen once per day over the first few days and add another yeast starter each day. I'm sure lots of people cringe at the thought because of the yeasty and oxidation flavors it would supposedly get, but they got the beer to exceed the alcohol tolerance of the strains and they thought it turned out ok.

 

[seatazzz]

@Jordan - the boildown method doesn't add much to the gravity, you are correct - but it does add to the maltiness. My bad.

@Chrispy92 - the recipe I used does call for Carapils, purely for body and head retention. I've had good luck with it. Rogue's Dead Guy isn't a "malt bomb" (at least to my palate) but a smooth drinking maibock.

@myself - don't post on HBT after having a few of my Arrogant Smoked Bastards. Was a good night though. The Dead Guy is one of my favorites that I've brewed so I jumped in.

 

[Chrispy92]

Ok Here is what I have put together now. I've decided to keep this first attempt consistent with my usual process, so it will only be a 15 liter batch. The recipe is as follows :

3kg (6.6lb) Base 2 Row
3kg (6.6lb) Maris Otter
1kg (2.2lb) Vienna
1kg (2.2lb) Dextrose

50g (1.8oz) Perle @60min approx 47 IBU
50g (1.8oz) Saaz @30min approx 15 IBU
30g (1.1oz) Perle @Flameout
30g (1.1oz) Saaz @Flameout

Mash at 64-65C (148-148f) = OG 1.128 estimated FG of 1.021
14-14.5% ABV and 62 IBU

Ferment with Notty primary for at least 3 weeks.

@Applescrap I've just watched that podcast and it was quite helpful. My main concerns are still with the amount of hops as I want to make sure there is a balance between the hoppiness/sweetness from higher FG and alcohol content.

Would adding some magnesium sulphate to my mash help accentuate the hops a bit?

I will definitley be adhering to the advice of others with regards to ensuring proper aeration and yeast health.

Cheers

 

[applescrap]

^^cool, thought that would help. For hops thats why i only use recipes. Why reinvent the wheel. Find a recipe and modify it if you must, but I personally dont throw darts in the dark anymore. Every time I make up my own recipe it sucks. I know this is a passion for some so I always recommend modifying a tried and true recipe, my 2cents. Best of luck and hope you keep updating.

 

[seatazzz]

@seatazz all valid considerations. I like the idea of the Maris otter to bring a bit more of a malt backbone. Why do you suggest the 10% carapils though, purely to build a bit of body? I have recently got a new pot so I think I will try the method of boiling down a % of my first runnings seperately to try and get a bit of caramelisation of the wort and add some depth.

I've never used Notty, how would it compare to S05 in terms of clean ferment?

Also I thought i saw the dead guy clones have perle at 60 and saaz at 30? You sound like you've brewed a clone before so any more suggestions on a good ratio and hop times to get a similar flavour profile would be awesome!

I'm a big fan of Nottingham because it ferments clean, leaves almost no esters, and the slurry left over will work over and over again. I've got some 4th generation in my fridge that will still go great guns. If you're looking for a beer that will be ready in <2 weeks, Notty can be a go-to yeast. The three Dead Guy clones I have brewed have been house favorites. The flavor I've gotten from them have been a solid malt backbone with good bitterness. I did get my hops backwards (thank you Bastard clone on tap). I tend to mash a bit high (154-156) because I'm still trying to dial in my system....mash tun is a former extract barrel that holds heat very well. Dead Guy is one of my favorite Rogue beers.

 

[Chrispy92]

^^cool, thought that would help. For hops thats why i only use recipes. Why reinvent the wheel. Find a recipe and modify it if you must, but I personally dont throw darts in the dark anymore. Every time I make up my own recipe it sucks. I know this is a passion for some so I always recommend modifying a tried and true recipe, my 2cents. Best of luck and hope you keep updating.

Fair enough. I've had my hits and misses with designing my own recipes and some epic fails when following a tried and true one. So I'm still sitting on the fence.

To that regard I figure the more I read the more likely I will gain enough wisdom to be able to accurately design and predict how this beer will come out... Although highly unlikely haha

The more I compare my recipe with other strong ales (American/scotch etc) there is a lack of crystal in my recipe. But I don't think that worries me as I'm expecting enough residual sweetness from the high FG and am not going for the same level of malt sweetness as most barleywines. On that note I might throw in 1-2% of dark crystal/ caramunich just to see if it adds a little malt complexity.

Fairly happy with the hopping as well, my IBUs sit nicely in the middle of the recipes I've seen with a lot more being represented in American styles and lots less in more malt forward strong ales. So I think sitting around 60IBU with a low mash temp should balance nicely.

I will be sure to update on brewday how it goes

 

[Chrispy92]

I'm a big fan of Nottingham because it ferments clean, leaves almost no esters, and the slurry left over will work over and over again. I've got some 4th generation in my fridge that will still go great guns. If you're looking for a beer that will be ready in <2 weeks, Notty can be a go-to yeast. The three Dead Guy clones I have brewed have been house favorites. The flavor I've gotten from them have been a solid malt backbone with good bitterness. I did get my hops backwards (thank you Bastard clone on tap). I tend to mash a bit high (154-156) because I'm still trying to dial in my system....mash tun is a former extract barrel that holds heat very well. Dead Guy is one of my favorite Rogue beers.

I've decided to use Notty and appreciate the wisdom of reusing the slurry. I will definitely be doing this! Time will tell how it goes with a 1.1+ beer and then bottle conditioning this bad boy!

 

[Clef051]

I've decided to use Notty and appreciate the wisdom of reusing the slurry. I will definitely be doing this! Time will tell how it goes with a 1.1+ beer and then bottle conditioning this bad boy!

You may not want to reuse the yeast from this being that High of a gravity. The yeast left over will be pretty stressed out may not be the best to reuse.

 

[Chrispy92]

^mm yes valid point.

Grains should arrive by the end of the week and I'll update on brewday!

 

[z-bob]

In a small beer with sugar added, I'd put the sugar in at the beginning of the boil. That gives it a chance to invert during the boil (not necessary for dextrose), and to caramelize a little.

But this isn't a small beer; you might want to hold the dextrose back and add it after a few days of fermentation. You'll get a little better hop utilization that way, and less stress on the yeast when you pitch it.

What's the alcohol tolerance of Nottingham?

 

[Chrispy92]

In a small beer with sugar added, I'd put the sugar in at the beginning of the boil. That gives it a chance to invert during the boil (not necessary for dextrose), and to caramelize a little.

But this isn't a small beer; you might want to hold the dextrose back and add it after a few days of fermentation. You'll get a little better hop utilization that way, and less stress on the yeast when you pitch it.

What's the alcohol tolerance of Nottingham?

This was indeed my plan for the sugar.

I've been looking at Nottys tolerance and a few records show its tolerance up to 14%. I'm starting to think maybe I should use something else if I want these to carb in the bottle?

 

[Chrispy92]

So brew day went very well. I initially dropped the target gravity to create a 12% beer not 14%, didn't want to run into yeast tolerance issues. The mash went well, Not quite to plan but happy with how things ended. I made a couple of mistakes, the main one was starting to sparge before I had complete my first runnings, meaning my pre boil SG was lower than I wanted. I also collected a bit more and boiled off a bit less, so my final OG was 1.090.

First question, I ended up mashing quite low, around 63-64c (145-147f). I'm aware this will create lots of fermentables and was kind of aiming to be a bit low to keep the FG down. I did end up adding 500g of sugrose to the end of the boil. I was originally planning on taking the total % of sugar up to 10% with the rest added at high Krausen. However... Do you think this may dry the beer out too much? Low FG from low mash temp combined with more sugar? Is 10% too much for a big beer mashed low?

I added two packs of Notty, and it's been a f***ing nightmare creating the worlds largest mess in my fridge. Even at 14c it's going absolutely crazy and I have no means to create a blowoff tube....

I managed to squeeze out two more beers from the second and third runnings, a big hop pale ale and a more mellow hopped up brown ale! Was a darn good brew day!!

 

[seatazzz]

Dang! I''ve not done a partigyle yet but sounds like you hit the jackpot. The sucrose will dry it out a bit, but depending on your grain bill it may not matter much. And yes, big scotch ales seem to have the stickiest, thickest, hardest-to-clean krausen (speaking from experience!). good luck and waiting to hear how it turns out.

 

[Chrispy92]

Dang! I''ve not done a partigyle yet but sounds like you hit the jackpot. The sucrose will dry it out a bit, but depending on your grain bill it may not matter much. And yes, big scotch ales seem to have the stickiest, thickest, hardest-to-clean krausen (speaking from experience!). good luck and waiting to hear how it turns out.

Yeah the partigyle process really made for a fun brew day and lots of chances to try new hop combos and work with new water profiles.

Just cleaned up the massive mess from the vigorous ferment, just curious if you or anyone has ever gotten big banana aromas coming from the airlock using Nottingham? It seriously smells stronger than my Hefeweizen I brewed last week!

Still unsure about whether or not to add the rest of the sugar.... Will decide tomorrow

 

[RustyHorn]

You're fermenting at 14c? I'd have gone 18c. The banana esters might be from the low ferment, but I can't be sure of that - just a guess.

 

[Chrispy92]

I have it set at 16c with plans to bring it up to 18c on day 3. I took it down to 14.2c last night as the fermentation was peaking and making the biggest mess (as a hope to curb the massive amount of crud spilling out and over the top). So today it's been sitting at 16c and still fermenting like crazy but without the blowout, and today is when I'm really noticing the ester smell.

I've considered that perhaps I didn't aerate the wort enough and although the pitch rate was good and fermentation started super quick the lack of oxygen could be stressing the yeast enough to throw some phenolics??

Hopefully it's just a product blowing out the airlock and not being imparted into the beer itself

 

[Chrispy92]

Ok wow. Bumped up ferm temp yesterday to 18 and the activity definitely dropped a lot. So I decided to go ahead with the extra sugar and take a gravity reading, Nottingham has already taken this thing down to 1.010!! I didn't really think about it until after I put the extra sugar in, but that's clocking in at 88% attenuation and now I'm hoping the little yeasties have enough gas in them to chew up the rest of the sugar I just put in.

Guess it goes to show what a low mash temp can do!!

I did taste a little bit and it definitely doesn't have an apparent dryness. Hopefully it doesn't drop any more and my water profile helps bring out some of the malt.... Or else it may be toooo dry and alcoholic!

 

[BrewZer]

@Brewzer no problem with chatting to an extract/adjunct brewer I'm thinking I may need to have some extract on hand cold brew day incase I don't hit my desired gravity. I was looking into a few of the Trappist yeasts and good to hear the one you used fermented well at a bit of a lower temperature. You say you've just finished bottling? Let me know how strong the phenolic and estery flavours are when you sample one. I'd assume they would be slightly subdued due to the lower ferment temp?

Cracked my first bottle today after 2 weeks, chilled to about 45 degrees. Alcohol heat has tempered considerably, with coriander notes pleasantly assertive at mid-taste, and seem to have masked/replaced heavy esters that were apparent at bottling. I bottled with DME instead of sugar, since my mix had a pound of candi sugar already in it. I'm pretty happy with it, but next time I'll cut the coriander to half an ounce instead of .7 oz. I've also got slight carbonation, quite a relief since the final gravity reads 14.4% abv. I thought the yeast had killed itself off.

 

[Chrispy92]

Good to hear Brewzer. Sounds like a nice drop!

I went ahead and bottled #3 of the partigyle beer today. It's definitely light with a FG of 1.004. Coming in at around 4.7% it's hard to tell from the sample what the final beer will be like. I tested my hoppy pale and it's sitting at a SG of around 1.005. Also super low, the aroma of this one is straight up fresh pineapple, so I think it will be a nice refreshing beer when it's done. I just pulled a sample from the big beer and it's surprisingly very very smooth. I expected a bit of alcohol harshness but there is nothing from the sample. There's a really delicate hop aroma and flavour combined with a smooth alcohol note and a dry finish. This thing may just be AWESOME when it's done. I'm going to let it primary for another 3 weeks.

I'll update when I crack the first few bottles. Mmm

 

[C-Rider]

^^cool, thought that would help. For hops thats why i only use recipes. Why reinvent the wheel. Find a recipe and modify it if you must, but I personally dont throw darts in the dark anymore. Every time I make up my own recipe it sucks. I know this is a passion for some so I always recommend modifying a tried and true recipe, my 2cents. Best of luck and hope you keep updating.

I must be lucky as I never look up recipes. I use the BJCP guidelines and the book Designing Better Beers to get ideas and then I wing it. Never had a bad beer and have had a few prize winners.

 

[applescrap]

I must be lucky as I never look up recipes. I use the BJCP guidelines and the book Designing Better Beers to get ideas and then I wing it. Never had a bad beer and have had a few prize winners.

You said you use the guidelines (which is a great idea) and a book on designing beers, hard to call that just pure luck. Many dont use enough resources and dont have as much success. For example, at one of our lhbs there was this really great guy. Really liked this guy. But people would come in and ask how to make a certain beer. Let's just say it was Avery Maharaja. Oh he knew how to make it and off the top of his head he would run and grab all the ingredients you needed to make an exact clone. He was such an expert he just knew how to make everything. Man oh man after that Stout I was vvvveeerrrryyy careful about what recipes i was going to use. Denny conn & drew Beacham, wrote a book on Homebrew All Stars where they categorize homebrewers by what they do. One category are the recipe innovators and another are process Junkies. I think it's all good no matter what anybodys trip is, but I will always advocate for using a great recipe.

Never making a bad beer designing your own recipes is quite a feat, especially in the early days. Perhaps you could find a career in recipe design somehow as i know for a fact companies spend tens of thousands of dollars researching and designing recipes. Sounds like you have a talent for it.

 

[BrewZer]

Good to hear Brewzer. Sounds like a nice drop!

I went ahead and bottled #3 of the partigyle beer today. It's definitely light with a FG of 1.004. Coming in at around 4.7% it's hard to tell from the sample what the final beer will be like. I tested my hoppy pale and it's sitting at a SG of around 1.005. Also super low, the aroma of this one is straight up fresh pineapple, so I think it will be a nice refreshing beer when it's done. I just pulled a sample from the big beer and it's surprisingly very very smooth. I expected a bit of alcohol harshness but there is nothing from the sample. There's a really delicate hop aroma and flavour combined with a smooth alcohol note and a dry finish. This thing may just be AWESOME when it's done. I'm going to let it primary for another 3 weeks.

I'll update when I crack the first few bottles. Mmm

Nice attenuation! It'll be interesting to see how much it's mellowed when you bottle.

 

[Chrispy92]

Update: bottled half of the strong ale on Thursday. It didn't have the greatest aroma, kind of an interesting mess of danky booze. However the sample tasted quite nice. Because of this I then dry hopped the remaining with 20g of saaz, 20g perle and 30g motueka. After a 4 day dry hop I bottled today and it has a more pronounced aroma, sort of earthy, spicey woody minty and herbal with a light citrus note in the background. I'm not so sure this beer will turn out great. It almost seems like it lacks a bit of complexity, maybe the lack of a decent malt backbone is going to be a flaw. Anyway time will tell! I have a few bottles at 73f to try and fast carb up and will report back in a couple of weeks.

I thought I'd also update on the pale ale, which has carbed up. It's a drinkable beer but the low FG is not to my liking. It's a bit too dry and lacks body. The combination of hops I used is ok, brings forth an interesting melon flavor. It would be a decent summer drop, and a good experiment with increasing my sulfide levels in my water for the first time.

Hop schedule was
38g Chinook FWH
30g Amarillo @flameout
45g chinook @flameout