Length Matters...

[StLouBrew]

Ok, not exactly earth-shattering news here... it's been suggested and validated on numerous posts prior to this, but I just thought I'd share my experience.

I have a relatively new dual faucet kegerator from the Beverage Factory. I kegged a couple of batches and things were fine.. sort of. My carbonation level seemed right, decent head on the pour, but the beer still seemed a bit flat and the flavor not all there. Then I read some posts, got some good advice (thanks Juan Moore) and I replaced the factory-provided 5' lines with 10' lines. I was AMAZED at the difference it made - especially with the SNPA clone. The hop flavor is now more prominent, whereas before it just seemed a bit... washed out.

On another note, changing the lines on this kegerator was NOT as easy as I thought it would be. Getting to the lines inside of the tower becomes its own project... special tools, etc.

So, for those that suggest it's not the length, it's just how you use it... That doesn't apply to kegging.

Cheers

 

[Yooper]

Oh, yes, size matters!

The guys that say that it doesn't matter are just trying to compensate for having short hoses.

 

[Homercidal]

Must... Resist... Urge...

Whew! Close one.

Yes, proper length is necessary to achieve proper carbonation while still avoiding the foaming over problem. BUT, it is about resistance too! Going to a smaller inside diameter nearly approximates a change in length. 10' is considered a universal standard for the small diameter hoses commonly sold. It works well for most beer styles.

And I agree about the flavor changing. I appreciate the bit of bite that comes from a properly carbonated beer, and of course that carbonation also very likely changes our flavor perception.

 

[StLouBrew]

Oh, yes, size matters!

The guys that say that it doesn't matter are just trying to compensate for having short hoses.

Yoop - Here's to not having to compensate

 

[Blarneybrew]

Not that informative a thread I'm afraid. Nice affirmation for people in the know I suppose lol

 

[Jacinthebox]

has anyone had any success splicing a beer line to extend it? I have a couple 5' that I would like to extent to 10'...rather not replace the entire line

 

[Homercidal]

has anyone had any success splicing a beer line to extend it? I have a couple 5' that I would like to extent to 10'...rather not replace the entire line

It can probably be done, but beer line is not that expensive. The coupler will leave a place for gunk to hide, making cleaning difficult.

If it were me, I'd buy a new 10 foot or so and use a single line. I want to make cleaning the tap lines as easy as possible.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I have a 10' line. I feel as though the speed at which the beer comes out is too slow. Anyone else feel this way? I've heard proper pressure should fill the glass in just a few short seconds. I cut one of mine back to 6' as a test. Seems to flow a lot better, but I did notice there was like zero dry hop aroma now.

 

[Jacinthebox]

It can probably be done, but beer line is not that expensive. The coupler will leave a place for gunk to hide, making cleaning difficult.

If it were me, I'd buy a new 10 foot or so and use a single line. I want to make cleaning the tap lines as easy as possible.

sounds good...I was looking to avoid tearing the tower apart...but that may be the best way...thanks

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Oh, yes, size matters!

The guys that say that it doesn't matter are just trying to compensate for having short hoses.

Man and woman are at their wedding bed and the man undresses.

The woman looks at him startled. She disapointedly says "who do you expect to please with that?"

Man says "Me".

 

[Homercidal]

I have a 10' line. I feel as though the speed at which the beer comes out is too slow. Anyone else feel this way? I've heard proper pressure should fill the glass in just a few short seconds. I cut one of mine back to 6' as a test. Seems to flow a lot better, but I did notice there was like zero dry hop aroma now.

Eh. I don't mind waiting a few extra seconds. A slower pour means a likelihood of better carbonation retention. But you should trim to suit your needs. Getting the right amount of head on a pour has it's benefits. Good head has a certain visual appeal, amiright?

 

[BreezyBrew]

Eh. I don't mind waiting a few extra seconds. A slower pour means a likelihood of better carbonation retention. But you should trim to suit your needs. Getting the right amount of head on a pour has it's benefits. Good head has a certain visual appeal, amiright?

Haha. I wasn't aware it can affect head retention. Makes sense though.

 

[lukebeulah]

Here's to figuring out how to balance your system properly!
Cheers


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[Blarneybrew]

So, how does length affect flavor? Is it simply a more agitated pour releasing/scrubbing hop aroma out of the beer and in to your nose?

I really do wish that this forum was better moderated to discern general talk from otherwise. Although the subject and thread match this category, it is more a general discussion conversation as there was little info coming from the OP

Treading through this massive forum for information can be insane sometimes.

 

[day_trippr]

So, how does length affect flavor? Is it simply a more agitated pour releasing/scrubbing hop aroma out of the beer and in to your nose?

I really do wish that this forum was better moderated to discern general talk from otherwise. Although the subject and thread match this category, it is more a general discussion conversation as there was little info coming from the OP

Treading through this massive forum for information can be insane sometimes.

You weren't a fan from the start.

If you have questions and you can't find answers, rather than taking pot-shots at random threads that amazingly weren't actually started to answer your questions, why not start your own thread and put them out there?

Cheers!

 

[Homercidal]

So, how does length affect flavor? Is it simply a more agitated pour releasing/scrubbing hop aroma out of the beer and in to your nose?

I really do wish that this forum was better moderated to discern general talk from otherwise. Although the subject and thread match this category, it is more a general discussion conversation as there was little info coming from the OP

Treading through this massive forum for information can be insane sometimes.

What is it you are looking for? You can always just start a new thread with your question. We are always eager to answer.

 

[Safa]

Before this thread turns into a help fest for the poor guy who can't use a google search, can we discuss the length vs flavour issue some more?

My lines are well balanced at 6ft each, get great pours when my beer is properly carbed, but I haven't noticed a lack of flavour?


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[fizgig]

I just got some kegs and I'm figuring this stuff out, I assume you're all talking about 1/4" hoses? I have some 5' 3/16" hoses and assume they work fine, but maybe not.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I just got some kegs and I'm figuring this stuff out, I assume you're all talking about 1/4" hoses? I have some 5' 3/16" hoses and assume they work fine, but maybe not.

Great question. I use 3/16". I thought that was the standard? The LHBS sells the most of this by far.

One thing I have noticed is that the more head you have the better the aromatics are. The dry hop comes out better in an IPA.

 

[StLouBrew]

I just got some kegs and I'm figuring this stuff out, I assume you're all talking about 1/4" hoses? I have some 5' 3/16" hoses and assume they work fine, but maybe not.

I had the 5' 3/16" lines and that's what I was having some problems with. I went to 10' 3/16" and that's when I noticed the improvement. Definitely better carbonation. Might have I been imagining that the flavor was better as too? Perhaps, but it seemed to me like without the additional foaming I was getting with the shorter lines, that a bit more of the hop flavor was coming through.

 

[Homercidal]

I too use 10' 3/16" hoses and they seem to work fine. The idea is to restrict the flow and reduce nucleation sites and turbulence so that the beer arrives at the glass as without losing carbonation due to foaming. You can adjust the amount of head in the glass by varying the height of the pour, to get the amount of head you want.

Hoses that are too short, or have a large diameter, reduce the resistance so much that the sudden change in pressure causes the CO2 to be released. Hoses that are too long or too narrow will simply have a slower flow rate.

Also, dirty lines can create nucleation sites which cause CO2 to come out of solution, which causes foam. It's the same thing as when you drop Mentos into soda.

 

[Yooper]

I just got some kegs and I'm figuring this stuff out, I assume you're all talking about 1/4" hoses? I have some 5' 3/16" hoses and assume they work fine, but maybe not.

No, we're talking about 3/16" ID beer line. 1/4" hose is for LONG runs like 25 feet or more, such as at a bar where the taps are far from the kegs.

For short runs, like in your kegerator, you'll need the resistance provided by 3/16" ID line.

 

[Jacinthebox]

I just bought 2 lenghts of 10' beerline...time to replace the 5 footers I have now

 

[BanditBrewCo]

3/16" hoses here at 12' long and coiled to sit on top of kegs and not drape down to the bottom of the keezer. Coiling hoses on top of kegs allowed me to cut my co2 by almost 2psi and still maintain flow rate with perfect head across all 3 reg settings! Taps sit approx 2 ft above kegs and get a great pour on all beers except my strawberry wit... Still can't figure this one out, lol. But that has to do with my own system not quite in balance for that particular recipe.

 

[fizgig]

Interesting, I've seen some calculators and they say you only need a yard or so for normal carbonation volumes, I remember reading (I think yooper) someone said 10' for beer, but like 50' for soda, I may misremembering, looks like I need some longer lines.


Sent from

 

[Homercidal]

Interesting, I've seen some calculators and they say you only need a yard or so for normal carbonation volumes, I remember reading (I think yooper) someone said 10' for beer, but like 50' for soda, I may misremembering, looks like I need some longer lines.


Sent from

Soda is commonly carbed to a much higher volume, which requires even more resistance to balance the CO2 pressure required to carb to those volumes.

I *think*, without looking it up, that beer is about 2.4 volumes, which at common kegerator temps equates to about 10-11 pounds per square inch of pressure.

Soda would require something like 30 pounds per square inch. And of course you can carb at a lower volume, but most people assume soda has to be like store bought to be good. (I prefer a higher carbonation for most things. I enjoy the bite it gives.)

 

[Blarneybrew]

You weren't a fan from the start.

If you have questions and you can't find answers, rather than taking pot-shots at random threads that amazingly weren't actually started to answer your questions, why not start your own thread and put them out there?

Cheers!

Wasn't a fan from the start?

I don't even look at who is posting when I make my reply. I think calling this a pot shot is reading too much in to it, and I rather not make a new post to a question that could have been explained in this post. No need to add more clutter is there?

This post was more of a general chat affirmation it should go in to general brewing discussion. Next time I'll report it and see if the mods agree. No malice

Sorry, but I am slightly annoyed with having to tread through a half dozen or so search thread to find answers. Especially while on a smart phone.

 

[StLouBrew]

This post was more of a general chat affirmation it should go in to general brewing discussion. Next time I'll report it and see if the mods agree

I should probably just leave well enough alone, but oh well... Blarney, I can't quite understand how a thread on beer line length would not belong under that category of "Bottling and Kegging." Now if my observation/validation on the positive effect of increased line length and the quality of the conversation from that point forward didn't measure up to your standards... well I suppose that's your issue not mine. But if you think it's worth taking up the topic with a moderator, please be my guest.

Being new here, I have a lot to learn about home brewing. Similarly, if this thread was inappropriate based on the etiquette and norms established on this forum, then I'd like to know that too.

 

[JuanMoore]

I have a 10' line. I feel as though the speed at which the beer comes out is too slow. Anyone else feel this way? I've heard proper pressure should fill the glass in just a few short seconds. I cut one of mine back to 6' as a test. Seems to flow a lot better, but I did notice there was like zero dry hop aroma now.

What you heard was likely from one of the commercial beer line balancing articles, which suggest a flow rate of ~1gal/min, or a pint fill time of 7 seconds. That's the fastest a beer can be poured under commercial conditions without causing excessive foaming. If you're serving your beer under commercial conditions (~36° and <2.7vol) then that will work fine for you, and any of the line balancing calculators you find online will result in exactly that pour speed.

The warmer or more highly carbed a beer is, the slower/gentler the pour needs to be to prevent excessive foaming. If you're like a lot of homebrewers and want to serve your beer a little warmer, you'll need a slightly slower pour. Since line resistance for a given line is a function of flow rate, you need much much longer lines to slow the pour down just a little. I personally prefer extra long lines and a slower pour, as it enables me to serve beer at a wide variety of carb levels and serving temperatures without issue. I also figure that if I have time to drink a beer, I have an extra 2-3 seconds to wait for it to pour. As always, YMMV.

I just got some kegs and I'm figuring this stuff out, I assume you're all talking about 1/4" hoses? I have some 5' 3/16" hoses and assume they work fine, but maybe not.

Nope, 3/16" ID. If you're serving your beer very cold, and keeping the carb level under 2.7 vol, your 5' lines should work just fine. If you switched to 1/4" lines, you'd need over 20' to achieve the same resistance.

No, we're talking about 3/16" ID beer line. 1/4" hose is for LONG runs like 25 feet or more, such as at a bar where the taps are far from the kegs.

For short runs, like in your kegerator, you'll need the resistance provided by 3/16" ID line.

This.

 

[Blarneybrew]

I should probably just leave well enough alone, but oh well... Blarney, I can't quite understand how a thread on beer line length would not belong under that category of "Bottling and Kegging." Now if my observation/validation on the positive effect of increased line length and the quality of the conversation from that point forward didn't measure up to your standards... well I suppose that's your issue not mine. But if you think it's worth taking up the topic with a moderator, please be my guest.

Being new here, I have a lot to learn about home brewing. Similarly, if this thread was inappropriate based on the etiquette and norms established on this forum, then I'd like to know that too.

Take it personally, take it how you like. The post is vague and an affirmation. 700+ views in 3 days to read about hop flavor being affected by hose length.... I'm sure they left this thread feeling informed. Well at least you got some people curious, if not confused.

There are two general discussion categories in this forum and I simply wish people or the mods were more strict or diligent with the placement of posts. Mind you questions have been raised since your original post, so all is not lost?


.

I'm glad you are satisfied with the new adjustment. I'm just saying that when I look at a post entitled "length matters" I expect a bit of an instructional/educational.

I'm frustrated with so much scattered information. I look at posts as information, not people per se. I wouldn't take offense or worry about it.

 

[Yooper]

Cut out the off topic chatter, please. If you don't like something, please feel free to use the "report this post" button to bring it to a moderator or admin's attention, but we generally do NOT allow chatter in these brewing forums (that's what the "chit chat" area is for). I'm leaving the posts, as there is some actual information in them, but please refrain from making snide remarks and off topic remarks in the future. In other words, stay on topic, or don't post anything at all. Thanks.

Anyway, one of the things to keep in mind with those calculators are for when time is money, such as in a bar. You want to pour a beer as quickly as possible. Also, the temperature is cold and the beer is not particularly highly carbed. The only disadvantage to longer lines at home would be a slightly slower pour, that might take a second or two longer to pour a beer. The advantages, though- no wasted beer due to foaming, predictable pours for a variety of carbonation levels, etc- far outweigh the extra two seconds to pour the beer.

I don't know of anybody who has 10-12' lines who wishes they were shorter!

 

[PRE66_6TART]

Snide remark deleted. Sorry

 

[ballsy]

Would these rules pertain to a picnic style tap as well? The kit I bought is coming with "4' picnic tap and dispensing hose" and this is making me want to buy 10'.....

sent from Galaxy S4 after a few beers using homebrew talk app

 

[Homercidal]

Would these rules pertain to a picnic style tap as well? The kit I bought is coming with "4' picnic tap and dispensing hose" and this is making me want to buy 10'.....

sent from Galaxy S4 after a few beers using homebrew talk app

Yes.

 

[ballsy]

After a lot of research, there are plenty of people who have fine pours w/ 4-5 foot tubing as long as one is flexible on colder beer temps, I prefer colder. My keezer is set to 2.5deg C, and keg at about 7 psi and get really good pours, keep on side for no head, and pour to center if I want about 1/2 inch head. My limitation would be higher co2 vol's but 2.0-2.4 is fine for me until I get a tower.

sent from Galaxy S4 after a few beers using homebrew talk app

 

[DeltaNu1142]

I'm bumping this thread to see if I can get my keg balance right... this is my 2nd (or third?) kegerator, so I'm not new to the game. In fact, I used to have this incredibly sophisticated spreadsheet to calculate line length based on beer type, desired CO2 volumes, etc., etc... that I usually ignored in favor of the "just use what I've got because I want to drink beer" method. So here's my question...

What is the right way to arrange slack in your beer line?

I have a 1/4 of Lagunitas IPA right now. I like my beer at 38-39 deg F, and the carbonation is spot on, IMO... however, I'm running a really short line (like 3') which results in very fast pours, the first pint of which is usually half foam. Subsequent pours and growlers/pitchers are good--great, actually. Carbonation is great and sustains really well. The only reason I'm using line that short is that I wouldn't know where to put 10' of line in my kegerator. How would I arrange it? Vertical loops? I've always understood high points, or points higher than the faucet, to be bad. Would horizontal loops be better?

What do you do with your 10' of beer line?

 

[StLouBrew]

DeltaNu,

I hadn't put much thought into it, nor given it much attention. My lines are just dangling about where they've come to a natural resting place. I do recall reading a post from someone who said that they coil theirs neatly upon the top of their kegs. That seems like it would provide a more consistent resistance.

Cheers

 

[day_trippr]

I run 12' lines on my 6 faucet tower keezer. Figure a foot of line up the tower column, roughly 3 feet from tower base to each keg, leaving just as roughly 8 feet of slack. This is tie wrapped in a neat coil that tucks just inside the keg rubbers. I'd add a pic but I'm about 3000 miles from home catching rays and fruity rum drinks in the Bahamas

Cheers!

 

[DeltaNu1142]

OK--I'm overthinking it, I suppose. Coils laying on the top of the keg sounds easy enough.

Replacing the beer line is (maybe) one thing I can do right today... I've already blown the top off my fermenter and broken my autosiphon while cleaning it.

Thanks gents!

 

[stewart194]

OK, let me make sure I have this correct. I'm new to kegging and have only kegged 3 batches so far, but I swear that those beers have been less hoppy / less flavorful than my bottled batches. But I thought that if I had 5 foot lines that are 3/16 it would be fine? I have the fridge set at 40 and have 10 psi on the regulator which should equal around 2.3 volumes of CO2. (I carbonate them this way over 2 or 3 weeks also and don't do the 30 psi force carb method) The beer "seems" to pour just fine honestly, and if I want a little more head on them I just pour them a little "sloppy" at the very end.

Should I upgrade to 10 foot 3/16 beer lines? What is the reason that 5 foot 3/16 lines zap hops and flavor? Just curious. This sounds like what might be causing my issues.

As far as balancing my lines go, I have a 3 way splitter and have all of the valves open. They all have 10 psi on them from the same tank and regulator. I use 30 psi to set the lids, and sometimes use 2.5 oz of priming sugar if the keg will be sitting at room temp for a few weeks, and on those kegs I bleed the pressure off before connecting them to the CO2 line. Is this the proper way to balance my lines or am I missing something?

Thanks!