Last 3 beers have had the same flavour.

[mhermetz]

I'm pretty frustrated at this point. My latest beer a NEIPA has this same flavour that has been plaguing me for sometime now. I describe it as being a lingering harshness and my wife who is new to beer said it was like cabbage.

Which funny enough perked me up because I've read this can be a bacterial infection. However I have absolutely no damn clue where that could have come from.

That's because my process is fairly simple. I ferment in kegs and then I used the fermentasaurus ball float to pour my beer from the top of the keg rather the the bottom. This allows me to save transferring. As a note this is a completely new beer so it can't be that I've left it on the yeast cake too long.

So if it is indeed bacterial it has to come from 2 places. My CFC, the output hose of that CFC, or my keg itself.

I was kind of on this path before this beer so I did a deep clea of my kegs by letting them soak in pbw for 2 days. Rinsed and then sat in Sanitizer until I was ready for them. Dismantled and all that jazz too with the same process.

My CFC I did the best I could ran cleaner and sanitized. If there a better way to ensure I got everything that could be in there?

My hose from the cfc to my keg. Its brown. I did run a brush through but it is a little old so maybe he silicone tube has a groove or scratch in it that harbouring this bacteria?

Other than that I'm at a loss for what I could do.

 

[ebbelwoi]

DMS (dimethyl sulfide) is said to give a cabbage-like off-flavor. Maybe look into that? The cause can be process or infection.

https://beerandbrewing.com/off-flavor-of-the-week-dms/

 

[mhermetz]

DMS (dimethyl sulfide) is said to give a cabbage-like off-flavor. Maybe look into that? The cause can be process or infection.

https://beerandbrewing.com/off-flavor-of-the-week-dms/

Still leads me to believe infection. All the process issues seem unlikely unless the hop stand for 30mins at 180f could cause it?

 

[hottpeper13]

Do you recirculate the boiling or hot wort thru the CFC to sanitize it? Also if your CFC is a plate chiller you MUST clean it by backflushing.

 

[mhermetz]

Do you recirculate the boiling or hot wort thru the CFC to sanitize it? Also if your CFC is a plate chiller you MUST clean it by backflushing.

I ran it for 20min before chilling. It's also a coil. If it's dirty though it's possible it didnt sanitize properly though correct? You cant sanitize what's not clean.

 

[Transamguy77]

Since it’s only the last few batches have you changed something in your process? I would run some cleaner through your chiller, especially since you can’t see what’s inside it.

 

[Yooper]

Has your water source changed? Or anything at all different now? Are you repitching yeast?

 

[IslandLizard]

Have you taken your valves apart and cleaned thoroughly?

Most hot side infections I've seen and tasted have been by Pediococcus, leaving diacetyl in your beer, characterized by it's tell-tale buttery flavor. Kettle valves are often the culprit. They apparently don't get hot enough to kill the colonies inside the ball chamber where wort can linger.

Old hoses should probably be replaced. I got 4 years from my silicone hoses and by that time they started to look pretty much semi-opaque brown, regardless of how long I recirculated hot cleaners through them. The silicone discolors throughout.

Are there fittings on your hoses and CFC, where wort can get trapped and bugs can harbor? The connection between hose and fitting can be such a spot. Same with (hidden) threads, they're bug traps.

Is that a homemade CFC, a copper tube inside a garden hose, or a commercial, convoluted one?
They need to be cleaned by recirculation with hot or near boiling Oxiclean or better yet, PBW. With some lye added for good measure.
If you haven't done that for a while I'd run that for a few hours, as if your were recirculating or chilling wort, but without chilling water:
Kettle > valve > pump > CFC > return to kettle. If you can reverse the CFC half way through that would be even better.

 

[mhermetz]

Have you taken your valves apart and cleaned thoroughly?

Most hot side infections I've seen and tasted have been by Pediococcus, leaving diacetyl in your beer, characterized by it's tell-tale buttery flavor. Kettle valves are often the culprit. They apparently don't get hot enough to kill the colonies inside the ball chamber where wort can linger.

Old hoses should probably be replaced. I got 4 years from my silicone hoses and by that time they started to look pretty much semi-opaque brown, regardless of how long I recirculated hot cleaners through them. The silicone discolors throughout.

Are there fittings on your hoses and CFC, where wort can get trapped and bugs can harbor? The connection between hose and fitting can be such a spot. Same with (hidden) threads, they're bug traps.

Is that a homemade CFC, a copper tube inside a garden hose, or a commercial, convoluted one?
They need to be cleaned by recirculation with hot or near boiling Oxiclean or better yet, PBW. With some lye added for good measure.
If you haven't done that for a while I I run that for a few hours, as if your were recirculating or chilling wort, but without chilling water:
Kettle > valve > pump > CFC > return to kettle. If you can reverse the CFC half way through that would be even better.

Whoa hold the phone. Hot side infection? I thought it's impossible to have a hot side infection. Even if the bug is there it still hits boiling wort before leaving the kettle?

I did dissemble my ball valve leaving the kettle and gave it a good cleaning for this batch.

However, I have 2 very suspicious areas in my kettle, my 2 heat element connections. Both are welded in via a SS nipple. So there is about a 1 inch area where the elements exit the nipple and sticks into the kettle. That is pretty sheltered and is a pain in the ass to scrub clean. That being said it has been like that for years but it's still a possible source.

 

[mhermetz]

Has your water source changed? Or anything at all different now? Are you repitching yeast?

No to both.

 

[IslandLizard]

Whoa hold the phone. Hot side infection? I thought it's impossible to have a hot side infection. Even if the bug is there it still hits boiling wort before leaving the kettle?

Yeah, thinking about it, with an external chiller, such as your CFC or a plate chiller, you do run boiling hot wort through the valve, reducing or hopefully eliminating infection from that area.

Hot side infections from the kettle valves, as I described, are more common with those who use an immersion chiller, as there's never boiling wort going through the valve, helping to sanitize it. But even on a propane setup, you know hot that valve can get, somehow pedio seems to survive it. I've seen the black tarry residue hiding in those valves.

There are preferred ways to flush/clean those valves, better than other methods. And always leave half way open (45° position) to dry.

I did dissemble my ball valve leaving the kettle and gave it a good cleaning for this batch.

Alright, that can't be the cause, then.

 

[mhermetz]

At this point I'll try replacing the cold side hoses. And make sure I give the quick connects a good cleaning.

I do split the batch into 2 kegs, 4 gal each. I havent even tried the other keg yet. It's possible it could still be the keg too. The keg I havent tried is brand new too so if it still has the taste I can confidently eliminate the kegs being the source.

 

[IslandLizard]

However, I have 2 very suspicious areas in my kettle, my 2 heat element connections. Both are welded in via a SS nipple. So there is about a 1 inch area where the elements exit the nipple and sticks into the kettle. That is pretty sheltered and is a pain in the ass to scrub clean. That being said it has been like that for years but it's still a possible source.

It's worth taking them out and check/clean those tight areas from time to time.

Some other ideas:

• Are you reusing/repitching yeast?
• DMS formation is usually associated with boiling wort. Are you using different malts, Pilsner malts? Different boil regimen?
• Does it only show up with 180F whirlpool/hopstands or also when not doing whirlpools or hop stands at reduced temps?

I brew a lot of NEIPAs and do 2 whirlpool hop additions, one for 10' @170F then a 30' @150F one.
In one case I noticed a slight DMS-like aftertaste. Never figured out where that came from.

 

[mhermetz]

It's worth taking them out and check/clean those tight areas from time to time.

Some other ideas:

• Are you reusing/repitching yeast?
• DMS formation is usually associated with boiling wort. Are you using different malts, Pilsner malts? Different boil regimen?
• Does it only show up with 180F whirlpool/hopstands or also when not doing whirlpools or hop stands at reduced temps?

I brew a lot of NEIPAs and do 2 whirlpool hop additions, one for 10' @170F then a 30' @150F one.
In one case I noticed a slight DMS-like aftertaste. Never figured out where that came from.

New yeast every batch.
I did only boil for 45min this time since the only hops added were at flameout and hop stand at 180f.

 

[IslandLizard]

New yeast every batch.
I did only boil for 45min this time since the only hops added were at flameout and hop stand at 180f.

Just in case all small changes and variations adding up on the wrong side...

Usually ale malt based wort is boiled for an hour to drive off enough DMS, then chill as fast as possible. You're a bit short on the boil, then the hopstand at 180F is in the right temp range for DMS to form as its precursor, SMM is still being released.
How long were those 2 beers before this one boiled?

That is, if it's indeed DMS you're tasting. Would be good to get feedback from a BJCP judge or a bunch of other brewers, say from a club.

What yeast, and did you make starters? So many factors...

I'm curious how your 2nd keg came out.

 

[k-os]

Have all three beers been dry hopped? If so, how long did you dry hop for? If left on dry hops too long a vegetal flavor can develop.

 

[mhermetz]

Have all three beers been dry hopped? If so, how long did you dry hop for? If left on dry hops too long a vegetal flavor can develop.

They've been on the beer for a week now.

 

[mhermetz]

Just in case all small changes and variations adding up on the wrong side...

Usually ale malt based wort is boiled for an hour to drive off enough DMS, then chill as fast as possible. You're a bit short on the boil, then the hopstand at 180F is in the right temp range for DMS to form as its precursor, SMM is still being released.
How long were those 2 beers before this one boiled?

That is, if it's indeed DMS you're tasting. Would be good to get feedback from a BJCP judge or a bunch of other brewers, say from a club.

What yeast, and did you make starters? So many factors...

I'm curious how your 2nd keg came out.

Yeah I can see that. I put the lid on for the hop stand thinking I was helping avoid contamination. I should have left it off.

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah I can see that. I put the lid on for the hop stand thinking I was helping avoid contamination. I should have left it off.

Don't cover with a lid, just used a a sheet of aluminum foil thats been sanitized an leave it loosely covering. I'd be hard press to think its DMS in todays modified grains. possible? certainly but DMS is not harsh at all, it just gives a corny/vegetable notes to the beer.

The chance for a Bacterial infections in a NEIPA is quite low. Not saying its not possible but with a proper pitch rate and the amount of hops your pretty protected against most infections.

Is it a spicy harshness? If you could do your best to describe the flavor in detail it might help better.

 

[mhermetz]

Don't cover with a lid, just used a a sheet of aluminum foil thats been sanitized an leave it loosely covering. I'd be hard press to think its DMS in todays modified grains. possible? certainly but DMS is not harsh at all, it just gives a corny/vegetable notes to the beer.

The chance for a Bacterial infections in a NEIPA is quite low. Not saying its not possible but with a proper pitch rate and the amount of hops your pretty protected against most infections.

Is it a spicy harshness? If you could do your best to describe the flavor in detail it might help better.

To me it's akin to being bitter but harsh/ unrefined. It lingers too but not in the good way a IPA normally would. It seems it get worse the longer it's on your pallet. Wife thinks it tasted like vegetables, which given it's a NEIPA is very wrong. It completely masks any fruitiness to the beer.

On the last beer, a simple pale ale, it was completely un bearable. It's just sitting in the keg not being drank. I should just dump it.

 

[Yooper]

To me it's akin to being bitter but harsh/ unrefined. It lingers too but not in the good way a IPA normally would. It seems it get worse the longer it's on your pallet. Wife thinks it tasted like vegetables, which given it's a NEIPA is very wrong. It completely masks any fruitiness to the beer.

On the last beer, a simple pale ale, it was completely un bearable. It's just sitting in the keg not being drank. I should just dump it.

The first two sentences here are what made me ask about water. It sounds like alkaline water, a too-high mash pH, causing hops to be harshly bitter. Tell us more about your water source and how you control mash pH.

What batches (styles) have you brewed that have this quality? Any that don't?

 

[Dgallo]

To me it's akin to being bitter but harsh/ unrefined. It lingers too but not in the good way a IPA normally would. It seems it get worse the longer it's on your pallet. Wife thinks it tasted like vegetables, which given it's a NEIPA is very wrong. It completely masks any fruitiness to the beer.

On the last beer, a simple pale ale, it was completely un bearable. It's just sitting in the keg not being drank. I should just dump it.

Honestly I am going to guess its hop burn and green hop flavors. Heavily hopped ipas, especially if dryhoped during fermentation will cause something called hopburn which is Polyphenols and Proteins being binded together during fermentation (or during hop creep refermentation) which presents itself as a spicy/harsh bitterness that kind of hits the back of your throat when you swallow. I have atleast 1 if not 2 NEIPAs on tap at a time and I'd bet I brew upwards of 15 NEIPAs a year if not more. They always taste their best after a 2 week in the keg stored cold, conditioning period. this allows the hopburn to drop out of suspension and allows the hop aromas/flavors to develop and shine. If its a fresh keg give it 2 weeks from today wihout pulling a pint. I have a feeling it will be gone by then. klnl

 

[mhermetz]

The first two sentences here are what made me ask about water. It sounds like alkaline water, a too-high mash pH, causing hops to be harshly bitter. Tell us more about your water source and how you control mash pH.

What batches (styles) have you brewed that have this quality? Any that don't?

Batches that have had this are different NEIPA, a pale ale, and a light lager.

I use tap water from the city. Same water my entire club uses. It's best of darker beers but with slightly adjustments it's just fine for lighter styles. I used to test ph every batch but beersmith was a really good indicator of ph to actual results so I stopped. I add acid by acid malt.

Depending on the beer I add Epsom salts (IPA) or Calcium Chloride (Malty). Our water profile is balanced. (I'd give you numbers but I'm on my cell)

For this latest beer I added 2g of Epsom salts.

 

[mhermetz]

Honestly I am going to guess its hop burn and green hop flavors. Heavily hopped ipas, especially if dryhoped during fermentation will cause something called hopburn which is Polyphenols and Proteins being binded together during fermentation (or during hop creep refermentation) which presents itself as a spicy/harsh bitterness that kind of hits the back of your throat when you swallow. I have atleast 1 if not 2 NEIPAs on tap at a time and I'd bet I brew upwards of 15 NEIPAs a year if not more. They always taste their best after a 2 week in the keg stored cold, conditioning period. this allows the hopburn to drop out of suspension and allows the hop aromas/flavors to develop and shine. If its a fresh keg give it 2 weeks from today wihout pulling a pint. I have a feeling it will be gone by then. klnl

I'll let you know. Thst second keg certainly wont be tapped until then

 

[Yooper]

Batches that have had this are different NEIPA, a pale ale, and a light lager.

I use tap water from the city. Same water my entire club uses. It's best of darker beers but with slightly adjustments it's just fine for lighter styles. I used to test ph every batch but beersmith was a really good indicator of ph to actual results so I stopped. I add acid by acid malt.

Depending on the beer I add Epsom salts (IPA) or Calcium Chloride (Malty). Our water profile is balanced. (I'd give you numbers but I'm on my cell)

For this latest beer I added 2g of Epsom salts.

Remember that magnesium creates a sour taste. You want to stay under about 25 ppm of magnesium. Maybe the water supply has changed a bit(?).

 

[mhermetz]

Remember that magnesium creates a sour taste. You want to stay under about 25 ppm of magnesium. Maybe the water supply has changed a bit(?).

Got it off our FB group:

Ph 7.6
Calcium 34.4
Magnesium 8.9
Sodium 15.4
Sulfate 29.4
Chloride 28.8
Bicarbonate(HC03) 104.7

 

[mhermetz]

Maybe slightly relevant it was over attenuated. Og was 1.060 and Fg was 1.004. I was expecting g 1.010

 

[Dgallo]

Got it off our FB group:

Ph 7.6
Calcium 34.4
Magnesium 8.9
Sodium 15.4
Sulfate 29.4
Chloride 28.8
Bicarbonate(HC03) 104.7

You’re water is very similar to mine and pretty neutral, you most likely need to use acid in light beers to hit your mash ph. Are you using campden tablets to remove the chlorine from the water?

 

[mhermetz]

You’re water is very similar to mine and pretty neutral, you most likely need to use acid in light beers to hit your mash ph. Are you using campden tablets to remove the chlorine from the water?

Yes to both

 

[Dgallo]

Maybe slightly relevant it was over attenuated. Og was 1.060 and Fg was 1.004. I was expecting g 1.010

It is. Could mean infection or hop creep in the ipas you brewed

 

[day_trippr]

I agree, that's a significant over-attenuation (and definitely not to style for an neipa).

The problem I've been having with this thread is the "cabbage" character, and so far the only thing that makes sense is infection of some kind, because I don't think hop creep would lead to "cabbage"...

Cheers!

 

[Dgallo]

I agree, that's a significant over-attenuation (and definitely not to style for an neipa).

The problem I've been having with this thread is the "cabbage" character, and so far the only thing that makes sense is infection of some kind, because I don't think hop creep would lead to "cabbage"...

Cheers!

I was getting at vdk from hop creep.

 

[day_trippr]

That is the point of concern, but you'd get butter or butterscotch or even vanilla notes from that. Not cabbage...

Cheers!

[edit] I came across this page this morning...

https://coloradobeer.org/tech-safety-post/vdk-warm-dry-hops-a-love-story/

 

[mhermetz]

I agree, that's a significant over-attenuation (and definitely not to style for an neipa).

The problem I've been having with this thread is the "cabbage" character, and so far the only thing that makes sense is infection of some kind, because I don't think hop creep would lead to "cabbage"...

Cheers!

We also dont have expert trained tongues either lol. I really need someone from our club to try it but with the Corona Ontario is still shutdown.