Lambic (BOS, 3rd BOS and Two Golds)

[t-ross]

I brewed a batch of this about 14 months ago. I used the Wyeast Lambic blend and have not added any bottle dregs.

I'm about ready to rack onto a couple pounds of sour cherries. My question is about the yeast cake in the primary.... Is there anything useful or interesting that I can do with it? Should I save some of it to sour up future beers?

My next sour beer (using same primary bucket) will probably be a flanders red/brown using the Roselare blend. I haven't worked up the recipe yet.

 

[Rivenin]

if you have the room, i'd brew another sour and toss it onto cake, no reason not to use it! if you have the room of course. if not, i'd get a mason jar and fill it up and use it as soon as you can.

 

[TriggerFingers]

Now the question I have is, should I rack to glass after a month or just keep it in the better bottle for a year?

 

[stompbox]

I have a 16.5 gallon plastic container that LME comes in, I am planning on leaving a batch in that for the full duration.... My thoughts are that wooden barrels breathe..... Why should you use glass over plastic?

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[Zippox]

I have a 16.5 gallon plastic container that LME comes in, I am planning on leaving a batch in that for the full duration.... My thoughts are that wooden barrels breathe..... Why should you use glass over plastic?

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There is lots of talk of this over the boards but a quick summary of what I have read. Buckets are not good for long aging as there is too much oxygen to pass into the beer.

Better bottles work just fine for long fermentation - lots of people use these for 1.5 year fermentations with no problem. Of course glass is great as it doesn't allow any oxygen in.

AmandaK recommends from her experience with this recipe to start in an oxygen permeable container (bucket, vittles vault, etc). Then after a month or month and a half transfer to glass (or better bottle). She says in her first post that giving it a month in a bucket then transferring gave more impressive results.

 

[stompbox]

There is lots of talk of this over the boards but a quick summary of what I have read. Buckets are not good for long aging as there is too much oxygen to pass into the beer.

Better bottles work just fine for long fermentation - lots of people use these for 1.5 year fermentations with no problem. Of course glass is great as it doesn't allow any oxygen in.

AmandaK recommends from her experience with this recipe to start in an oxygen permeable container (bucket, vittles vault, etc). Then after a month or month and a half transfer to glass (or better bottle). She says in her first post that giving it a month in a bucket then transferring gave more impressive results.

Lambics are traditionally made in oak barrels right? Oak is certainly permeable.

The LME containers are extra thick to hold 16.5 gallons of extract, that is a lot of weight compared to a BB.

That is my thinking anyway.

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[Zippox]

I have read many posts about sours not turning out or tasting like vomit from too much o2 when just using a bucket for long aging. So most threads on this form encourage aging in glass vs the bucket. I'm not sure why sours succeed in oak barrels when I would also think they would be susceptible to the same o2 problem. Maybe someone can chime in on that part.

 

[JCrazy84]

I have read many posts about sours not turning out or tasting like vomit from too much o2 when just using a bucket for long aging. So most threads on this form encourage aging in glass vs the bucket. I'm not sure why sours succeed in oak barrels when I would also think they would be susceptible to the same o2 problem. Maybe someone can chime in on that part.

Oak does have permeability, but it is more of a dependent on surface area.

Consider:

Surface Area= 2(pi)r^2 + 2(pi)rh Treating them like perfect geometric cylinders, even though that isn't EXACTLY true....

225L/60ish gallon barrels: dimensions = 37.32″ (tall) x 26.97″(widest point)

= ~4300in^2

21L/5 gallon barrels= 15.5″(tall) x 13″(widest point)

= ~1500in^2.

So, basically, a 5 gallon barrel has ~1/3 of the surface area of a normal barrel even though it's contents are 1/12th the size. As such, oxygen would permeate the smaller barrel far faster, leading to faster 'aging'. But, would not always mean correct flavor generation based on the metabolism of whatever strains that you have in your batch and how they appreciate the added oxygen or are overwhelmed by it and it merely oxidizes the beer.

Here is the thing, Will and LME container work? Well, it is food grade plastic, but, it is still plastic, never the less. I don't know enough about actual oxygen permeability of HDPE (which I assume is the LME container) as opposed to that of a wooden barrel (with a bung), glass (with an airlock), better bottle (with an airlock), insert your fermenting vessel here, etc. to make a fully informed decision to say how it would turn out. That's the great thing about homebrew though, try it, it works, you're a genius, try it, you fail, you wasted X gallons of good beer. But in an over-oxidized sours case, I'd just turn over to some acetobacter for some malt vinegar ala Johnathan Sawyer. ( http://tavernvinegar.com/ )

 

[mmonacel]

I have read many posts about sours not turning out or tasting like vomit from too much o2 when just using a bucket for long aging. So most threads on this form encourage aging in glass vs the bucket. I'm not sure why sours succeed in oak barrels when I would also think they would be susceptible to the same o2 problem. Maybe someone can chime in on that part.

I think we need to separate out O2 flavor issues (acetobacter) with other flavor issues (of which there are a lot!). As far as I know low to medium O2 permeability is just going to favor growth of acetobacter which will give a vinegary sourness. It won't make your beer taste like vomit (there are other bugs that do that... ).

In my experience I typically use buckets for the duration and the amount of aceto I get from it is actually to my liking. I prefer a pretty tart beer and don't find buckets to create an overwhelming issue. You can always taste as you go and each batch of bugs will react differently, but I highly recommend (for my tastes) to start out or ride the entire time in buckets.

I've gone 1.5 years in buckets for a few batches so far with very good results.

 

[stompbox]

Thw main reason i am using a lme barrel is because i plan on throwing it away (actually recycling it) after use so i have no worries about cross contamination. And I can get them for free.

Using an LME barrel I will not need to transfer at all because it is so large that I can do fruit additions all in that vessel.

I am going to do this. We'll see what happens. Also if I am really concerned about O2 I suppose I could always saran wrap the container for more protection?

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[TriggerFingers]

I have my dad's old glass carboys when he made wine in the 1970's...Since its my first sour, I will rack....lets see what happens!

 

[urbanmyth]

Thw main reason i am using a lme barrel is because i plan on throwing it away (actually recycling it) after use so i have no worries about cross contamination. And I can get them for free.

Using an LME barrel I will not need to transfer at all because it is so large that I can do fruit additions all in that vessel.

I am going to do this. We'll see what happens. Also if I am really concerned about O2 I suppose I could always saran wrap the container for more protection?

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Dude, it's been done. And it sucks. Just listen to the rest of us who actually have experience with sours and don't bulk age in a bucket. It WILL turn out poorly. It WILL end up vinegary or vomit-y. We aren't saying these things or showing you the math and theory just to say them. If you ask for an opinion and then repeatedly refute the evidence, you might as well have not asked in the first place.

 

[Rivenin]

on the left about 5.5 months in!

looks like the bugs were doing some figure skating around the top

 

[TriggerFingers]

After 1 month, transferred to glass. Its pretty sour, but the initial funky brett quality of the Bugfarm isn't there anymore. The dominant aroma is subtle black olive brine.

The gravity now is 1.013--I will check it again in 6 months to see how much its dropped.

 

[brewbush]

Got a question
I made this recipe but transcribed it incorrectly so I accidentally for a 5 gallon batch used 8oz maltodextrin and 4oz aged hops.

What can I expect?

 

[LakesideBrewing]

According to my brewing notes, I have not done an 'extract batch' since 1997. This recipe/thread has inspired me to stop being so bias against extract brewing. And it has also been a terribly cold winter up here, so a shorter brew day might be nice!

-Mike

 

[rhoadsrage]

Got a question
I made this recipe but transcribed it incorrectly so I accidentally for a 5 gallon batch used 8oz maltodextrin and 4oz aged hops.

What can I expect?

Short answer probably not much. Maltodextrin will give you more mouthfeel/creamy texture if using just brewer's yeast. Brewer's yeast can't eat those long chains of sugar but other critters in a lambic slurry can. So you might get more character from the other critters or they might just work a little faster but I wouldn't assume much.

I have read discussions that go back and forth on aged hops vs fresh hops in lambics, especially those aged for long periods of time. You won't notice a flavor difference from less aged hops but it won't have the preservative power

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/04/brewing-lambic-mythbusters-style.html

Read #3 for more info.

 

[Zippox]

Do you still recommend a carbonation of 1.5 volumes?

If so, DME or corn sugar?

And which champagne yeast would you recommend to rehydrate for bottling?

 

[Kosslow]

I wanted to know what all of you thought of making a highly carbonated lambic and entering that into competitions as a gueze? Or just making a highly carbonated lambic for general enjoyment? I am very uneducated and inexperienced when it comes to lambics but the thought of a completely still sour beer is somewhat unappetizing.

I know there's gonna be your traditionalists out there that will bash this idea, but I was just wondering what y'all thought of the idea. Thanks!

 

[interoma]

Hi Guys! I was planning on brewing my first lambic and have a couple of questions!

-Does anyone have experience on using oak barrels?

- I know that lambics in belgium are fermented and aged in oak barrels. I actually have a new 5 gallon oak barrel at home and was thinking on using it. Do you think it would be fine or should I use a glass carboy?

 

[JCrazy84]

I'll copy what I said above regarding smaller barrels:

Consider:

Surface Area= 2(pi)r^2 + 2(pi)rh Treating them like perfect geometric cylinders, even though that isn't EXACTLY true....

225L/60ish gallon barrels: dimensions = 37.32″ (tall) x 26.97″(widest point)

= ~4300in^2

21L/5 gallon barrels= 15.5″(tall) x 13″(widest point)

= ~1500in^2.

So, basically, a 5 gallon barrel has ~1/3 of the surface area of a normal barrel even though it's contents are 1/12th the size. As such, oxygen would permeate the smaller barrel far faster, leading to faster 'aging'. But, would not always mean correct flavor generation based on the metabolism of whatever strains that you have in your batch and how they appreciate the added oxygen or are overwhelmed by it and it merely oxidizes the beer.

I'm not saying it can't work, but considering this is supposed to age a long time, I'm not sure about the prospects of small barrel aging. If anything, do it and taste it regularly to check out the flavor development.

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[Gus_13]

Going to do my first extract brew in a long time based off this recipe. Wonder if I can just boil around 30 min then chill and get a good effect? Reducing brew time would make it easier to pop out a couple in a day.

Recipe: Lambic
Brewer: Gus
Asst Brewer:
Style: Straight (Unblended) Lambic
TYPE: Extract
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.76 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 5.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 6.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 0.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4 lbs Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 1 57.1 %
3 lbs Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 2 42.9 %
0.50 oz Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 115.0 min Hop 3 6.2 IBUs
5.00 oz Malto-Dextrine (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 4 -
1.0 pkg Belgian Lambic Blend (Wyeast Labs #3278) Yeast 5 -


Total Grain Weight: 7 lbs
----------------------------

I have various bottle dregs I'll pitch as well. Bruery Rueuze being one of them. Maybe a Cantillon if I decide to pop it. I'll add dregs along the way as well.

 

[Gus_13]

Last minute decided to go AG with it since I had the time. I came out with a lower OG than expected, not sure why. Came up with 1.043. Should be fine. Pitched Lambic Blend from Wyeast along with Beatification, Perennial Aria, Perennial Regalia and Love Child #4 dregs. Hope to have something nice. In 8 hrs it was fermenting hard. I have it in my fermentation freezer now and after a week will tuck it back in the closet for a month. I may rack off of the trub and into secondary after the month if that is recommended. If not I'll just leave it on there for a year before I test it. Does anyone have any suggestions/rejections to keeping it on the yeast cake for a year or so?

 

[Zippox]

I may rack off of the trub and into secondary after the month if that is recommended. If not I'll just leave it on there for a year before I test it. Does anyone have any suggestions/rejections to keeping it on the yeast cake for a year or so?

You want to rack to it a secondary. There will be PLENTY of trub even after transferring it. More than enough yeast/food for the bacteria to feed on. And from the consensus of others on the forms they too will recommend racking it once.

 

[Gus_13]

You want to rack to it a secondary. There will be PLENTY of trub even after transferring it. More than enough yeast/food for the bacteria to feed on. And from the consensus of others on the forms they too will recommend racking it once.

Sweet will do. I'll give it a month then rack it over.


Santé!

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[Zippox]

The airlock in one of my 5 gallon carboys (of a 10 gallon batch) dried up for a month. The lambic is over 1.5 years old. Think the pellicle and CO2 bed will be it's savior from oxygenation?

 

[Matteo57]

Sweet will do. I'll give it a month then rack it over.


Santé!

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Do you really need to rack it? It's not necessary is it? I was thinking of just keeping both carboys as is from the beginning..... but if there is a reason why I should rack it to a secondary... then... Let me know please!

Thanks!

 

[Zippox]

Do you really need to rack it? It's not necessary is it? I was thinking of just keeping both carboys as is from the beginning..... but if there is a reason why I should rack it to a secondary... then... Let me know please!

Thanks!

The settled yeast is mostly dead and won't add anything beneficial to the lambic. It's suggested to rack it because there is plenty of yeast left in suspension and when those eventually die then the bacteria will use the yeast's carcases as food. The smaller portion of dead yeast you get after racking is more than enough food for the bacteria. An excessive amount of trub can give bad flavors.

This is all relayed information that I've found scouring forums in regards to lambics - not speaking from personal experience.

 

[Matteo57]

The settled yeast is mostly dead and won't add anything beneficial to the lambic. It's suggested to rack it because there is plenty of yeast left in suspension and when those eventually die then the bacteria will use the yeast's carcases as food. The smaller portion of dead yeast you get after racking is more than enough food for the bacteria. An excessive amount of trub can give bad flavors.

This is all relayed information that I've found scouring forums in regards to lambics - not speaking from personal experience.

Traditional lambics are not racked, they sit in the same vessel for the duration. That's why I ask

 

[Zippox]

Traditional lambics are not racked, they sit in the same vessel for the duration. That's why I ask

You know what, now that I think more about it I remember why it was suggested from this recipe to rack..

Amanda has done this recipe a few times and the 2 times that it turned out well, she did 30 days of primary fermentation in a bucket which as we know is oxygen permeable. It was then transferred to a glass carboy for bulk aging.

She once did the recipe by having it stay within the glass carboy from the beginning and her notes say that this beer was really lacking something to be desired.

Thinking on how traditional lambics are stored in barrels and never racked, they have a level of oxygen permeability - and I think that this process is partially captured by starting with a bucket and moving to a carboy.

 

[Matteo57]

That makes sense, plastic buckets are quite oxygen permeable. I have mine in plastic carbons which are not nearly as oxygen permeable. Emailed madfermantationist and he said not to rack so I'll go with that and see. Maybe I'll rack one so I can use the yeast cake and see how the two versions differ.

 

[Hanso]

Interesting. I would have thought that the racking introduces far more oxygen than simply sitting in a plastic bucket. .. perhaps the thought is that it is too much. Basically trying to simulate sitting in a barrel for a year or two, I'd guess being in plastic for a month is not enough.

 

[Matteo57]

Buckets introduce far too much oxygen for that length of time, I get that. But if it's in a good carboy, I would think that would be totally fine and you would get just enough. I would think...

 

[Zippox]

Buckets introduce far too much oxygen for that length of time, I get that. But if it's in a good carboy, I would think that would be totally fine and you would get just enough. I would think...

If I am following your statement correctly then yes, it's true that BetterBottle carboys work well for lambics and do not introduce too much oxygen. The buckets do introduce too much oxygen for long aging.

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

I think I'm gonna try this today and siphon some of the cake from my 16 month old sour blonde (WY lambic blend +tons of different dregs: Cantillon, Tilquin, 3F, etc.) into it along with maybe some fresh Belgian yeast. It's been a while since I brewed my last sour and I'm in the mood for an easy brew day.

 

[mitchard]

Can you add additional dregs as time goes on? I was thinking about doing this recipe, and adding a few random dregs as suggested in the original post. Do I need to add all of them when I pitch the Wyeast blend, or can I add dregs down the road? I have a couple nice sours I have been saving, and I would hate to have to crack all of them on one day.

 

[joshrosborne]

Can you add additional dregs as time goes on? I was thinking about doing this recipe, and adding a few random dregs as suggested in the original post. Do I need to add all of them when I pitch the Wyeast blend, or can I add dregs down the road? I have a couple nice sours I have been saving, and I would hate to have to crack all of them on one day.

You can add them at any time.

 

[Zippox]

Picking up some EC-1118 Champagne yeast, corn sugar and some oxygen absorbing bottle caps. Going to get 10 gallons of this recipe I brewed back in March of 2013 in some bottles!

This thing better be worth it

 

[Zippox]

I plan on bottling at 2.5 volumes. You bottled at 1.5. I assume this is all a preference thing but are there any arguments for/against either volume?

 

[FatsSchindee]

If I am following your statement correctly then yes, it's true that BetterBottle carboys work well for lambics and do not introduce too much oxygen. The buckets do introduce too much oxygen for long aging.

So what's the general consensus then for the best way to ferment a lambic aged in a better bottle:
A) pitch first with sacc yeast only (WLP001) in a plastic bucket, then rack off of the trub into a BB and pitch bugs (WLP655 - Belgian sour mix), and age in the BB for a year or so
B) pitch first with 001 into the BB, then just add the 655 after primary fermentation dies down and age (no racking, leave the primary trub)
C) pitch both the 001 and 655 into the Bucket at the same time, then rack into BB after primary fermentation slows down
D) pitch both the 001 and 655 into the BB, no racking
E) pitch only the 655 into the bucket for primary, then rack off trub to BB for extended aging
F) pitch only the 655 into the BB, no 001 for primary before, no racking
G) other? (I only have plastic bucket and BB carboys, so barrels, stainless, or glass carboys are not an option, though I guess I could easily get a glass carboy if would make that much difference!)

I was leaning toward A - brewing enough to end up with 5.25-5.5 gal into the 6.5 gal bucket with 001 (and kept around 68F in ferm chamber), then racking about 5 off the trub into a 5 gal BB carboy to minimize headspace and pitching the 655 (and putting it into closet at around 75F for the year - to free up space in the ferm chamber for other, quicker beers)...

Thanks for any advice - there's a lot of different info out there!