Lagering secondary?

[helterscelter]

Hey, since I'm almost complete with my glycol temp controller project (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=591668) I'm getting excited to try my hand at a Lager.

while reading up on the specifics, I've come to a question..

many places say that you should primary, then perform a diacetyl rest, rack to a secondary and finally lower the secondary temp to your lagering temp. some places gloss over the order of the secondary transfer and lowering of temp, and make it sound as if you should lower the temp to lagering levels and THEN transfer to secondary.

I can convince myself of reasons why you would want to do it in either order.. ie, transferring before lowering temp helps to guarantee you have plenty of yeast in secondary to finish up what needs finishing.. or .. transferring after lowering temps allows you to transfer less yeast, resulting in clearer beer.

whether this reasoning is fatally flawed or not, I do not know. (maybe I should drink until only one makes sense?)

so what is the proper procedure? lower temps before or after transfer to secondary?

 

[ericbw]

Following.

 

[dgramenz]

I've been wondering this exact same thing.

 

[JimRausch]

Personally, I rack to a new carboy then put her out in my cold garage to chill. I don't think it makes much difference which order because during the lagering process, the yeast will settle out anyways. I'm willing to listen to anyone else's reasoning.

 

[applescrap]

In the scenarios described, I think cold crashing the primary (after your diacetyl rest), and then putting gelatin in, and then racking to the secondary would be a good idea if you seek to drink it sooner than later. If not, leaving the yeast in and secondaring so it can finish up over time seems plausible as well. Either way once the cold hits it, it is going to crash the yeast and clear no?

 

[helterscelter]

In the scenarios described, I think cold crashing the primary (after your diacetyl rest), and then putting gelatin in, and then racking to the secondary would be a good idea if you seek to drink it sooner than later. If not, leaving the yeast in and secondaring so it can finish up over time seems plausible as well. Either way once the cold hits it, it is going to crash the yeast and clear no?

yes, I think either way the beer will clear. I'm somewhat more concerned with whether the amount of yeast transferred into secondary really matters that much. lager yeast are supposed to be "bottom fermenting", which I assume means they do their thing even after they flocc-out after the cold crash.

 

[casualbrewer]

Kinda depends on if you bottle or keg. If kegging just rack to keg and lager. Really you should be able to lager on the yeast cake for a few weeks. I would minimize as much racking as possible to lessen oxidation.

 

[jddevinn]

The beer was cooled, traditionally to 8°C at the end of primary fermentation to remove most of the surplus yeast before transfer to the warm maturation vessel. In this process the remaining yeast becomes re-suspended and there is a small uptake of oxygen, which activates the yeast to start the slow secondary fermentation. This results in the conversion of many unwanted flavour compounds into flavourless products.

In your keg I'd be tempted to just try to cold crash, then pull the yeast out the dip tube and lager in the keg.

 

[C-Rider]

My first successful lagar was done back in March. I bottled carbed it and then lagered it for 5 months. Perfect, clear and it took a 2nd place in a contest.

 

[helterscelter]

In your keg I'd be tempted to just try to cold crash, then pull the yeast out the dip tube and lager in the keg.

That is an interesting thought. I don't know how hard it would be to do that but it seems likely that I'd end up leaving a lot more yeast than I'd like. Hard to know when or if you've got enough of it out. Especially if you're shooting for zero oxygen contact.

 

[helterscelter]

My first successful lagar was done back in March. I bottled carbed it and then lagered it for 5 months. Perfect, clear and it took a 2nd place in a contest.

Shouldn't lagering be done before bottling?

 

[jlvgolf]

Kinda depends on if you bottle or keg. If kegging just rack to keg and lager. Really you should be able to lager on the yeast cake for a few weeks. I would minimize as much racking as possible to lessen oxidation.

This is essentially what I do. After FG is reached, I cold crash to 33, let it sit in primary for about a week to clear most of the yeast and then just keg it. The nice thing there is you can taste the beer as it lagers and decide for yourself when it's ready. Plus it frees up my fermentation fridge for the next brew

 

[ericbw]

What do you think is the highest temp for lagering? I mean, if it's 40, is that too high?

 

[jlvgolf]

What do you think is the highest temp for lagering? I mean, if it's 40, is that too high?

40 is fine. Definitely not too high. Fridge temps are no problem. You could even go higher if you want. I don't know what the top end of the range is before it's not considered lagering.