Lagering in bottles

[derbycitybrewer]

So I've been making ales for a while now. I'm all grain and what not. I do have a fermentation chamber. But I don't keg just yet. Here's my question. How would I lager when I'm bottling. Would I let primary happen for a week then bottle and let it carb at 50* and then continue to let it lager after. It has carbed o do I lager in secondary and then bottle??? Thanks ahead of time. Cheers.

 

[jdauria]

Lagers take longer to ferment, so you want to do primary until fermentation is 75-80% done. If you have a large cooler that you can get your bucket or carboy in, add some ice water and frozen water bottles to hold temps in low 50's. Then when 75-80% done, take carboy and warm back up to temps in mid-60's for three days...this is a diacetyl rest. Lager yeasts tend to give off diacetyl that can result in a buttery or butterscotch taste that is usually not wanted in most styles. The three days should bring the beer down to FG.

After the 3 day rest, you would normally then bring it down to temps in the mid to low 30's for a month or longer to lager it in a secondary. You could try to do this with a cooler and ice water, but you would need to change it daily to keep it that cool. So you could bottle, at room temp, because it would take longer to carb at 50*, and let the bottles carb at room temp for a few weeks. Then you could store the bottles once carbed, in a fridge for a month or longer. The beer will further clear in the bottles, but chances are you will sediment in the bottle of the bottles that would have settled out during the lager stage in a carboy.

 

[Revvy]

Mr. Wizard a couple years ago in BYO magazine actually did advocate lagering in bottles as opposed to the traditional way of doing it in a secondary.

 

[progmac]

i typed some stuff but reread above and it was just a repeat. so ignore this or delete it if you have the power.

 

[derbycitybrewer]

Lagers take longer to ferment, so you want to do primary until fermentation is 75-80% done. If you have a large cooler that you can get your bucket or carboy in, add some ice water and frozen water bottles to hold temps in low 50's. Then when 75-80% done, take carboy and warm back up to temps in mid-60's for three days...this is a diacetyl rest. Lager yeasts tend to give off diacetyl that can result in a buttery or butterscotch taste that is usually not wanted in most styles. The three days should bring the beer down to FG.

After the 3 day rest, you would normally then bring it down to temps in the mid to low 30's for a month or longer to lager it in a secondary. You could try to do this with a cooler and ice water, but you would need to change it daily to keep it that cool. So you could bottle, at room temp, because it would take longer to carb at 50*, and let the bottles carb at room temp for a few weeks. Then you could store the bottles once carbed, in a fridge for a month or longer. The beer will further clear in the bottles, but chances are you will sediment in the bottle of the bottles that would have settled out during the lager stage in a carboy.

I have a fermentation chamber with a temp controller so temps are no worries. So I could do my primary then my diacetyl rest and then bottle and begin to lager and drop the temp over the next month down to 33-34? Just do the lagering in the bottle. I guess I should let the bottles carb at 50* for 2 weeks and begin lagering?

 

[derbycitybrewer]

Mr. Wizard a couple years ago in BYO magazine actually did advocate lagering in bottles as opposed to the traditional way of doing it in a secondary.

Do u know if there's a link to this? Do u understand my process and think it would work? Wanting to get my Oktoberfest a try and make some adjustments so I have a nice batch for this fall. Thx ahead of time everyone.

 

[Revvy]

Do u know if there's a link to this? Do u understand my process and think it would work? Wanting to get my Oktoberfest a try and make some adjustments so I have a nice batch for this fall. Thx ahead of time everyone.

No, he was just answering the very same question as you did. And basically he just said it doesn't matter where you lager it, and since you're bottling you might as well just do it there.

It's not rocket science. Where you would normally rack to secondary and lager, you'd batch prime and bottle, but not leave it above 70 to carb. Instead you chill them all down for however long you think they'd need, then let them carb up at room temp for 3 weeks (though if the yeast is active and you've lagered long enough they might already be carbed up by then, so it wouldn't hurt to check a couple and see.)

The only bad thing I can think about doing it this way is that you won't really know til you taste them if you lagered long enough for whatever compounds to be eaten by the yeast. Lagering in a secondary you can always pull a sample and taste if it's clean or not. In a bottle you're reduced to just leaving it long enough. If I were doing it that way and it was a basic fizzy yellow lager, I might just lager it for 6 weeks. If it were a more complex lager I might just aim for 2-3 months minimum.

 

[progmac]

HERE IS THE ARTICLE

https://byo.com/lagering/item/2351-...n-the-secondary-fermenter-and-in-the-bottles?

 

[derbycitybrewer]

Thanks everyone. Much appreciated

 

[Revvy]

If you do it, let us know how it turned out. I never ended up doing it.

 

[daksin]

Revvy- you've got it a bit wrong. Yeast are doing NOTHING during lagering (as long as you're doing it near freezing). Lagering is a mainly phyiscal process- polyphenols and other undesirable compounds are only mildly soluble, so by lowering the temperature to near-freezing, they agglomerate and precipitate out of solution.

 

[smizak]

If your fermentation regimen was properly conducted for your lager, then it should be clean as a whistle right out of the primary. I pretty much handle my lagers exactly as I handle my ales, just the primary temp is different. Always clean, clear and delicious.

 

[progmac]

If your fermentation regimen was properly conducted for your lager, then it should be clean as a whistle right out of the primary. I pretty much handle my lagers exactly as I handle my ales, just the primary temp is different. Always clean, clear and delicious.

So you don't lager your lagers? I don't mean that in a snarky way. How long after reaching FG do you typically bottle?

 

[smizak]

So you don't lager your lagers? I don't mean that in a snarky way. How long after reaching FG do you typically bottle?

I cold crash after I've had a stable gravity reading for a couple of days and the yeast are obviously flocculating out. I do raise the temp a couple of degrees a day after the most active part of fermentation is complete, bring it up to about 65F from 55F. My lagers might see 10 days or so in the fermenter, usually a little less.

I do "lager" actually. It's just happening in the bottle, not the fermenter. I believe it's somewhat of a misnomer that the yeast are doing anything really after they have flocculated. But what is happening is the chill haze proteins and polyphenols will drop out and produce a bright beer. I would have no problem serving a slightly hazy IPA or something that has only been in the fridge for a week, but I wouldn't dare serve a lager until it was clear and bright. I've also found that the nature of the carbonation and body is much better after the haze has dropped out. Nice tight beaded bubbles and much more stable foam.

 

[progmac]

I cold crash after I've had a stable gravity reading for a couple of days and the yeast are obviously flocculating out. I do raise the temp a couple of degrees a day after the most active part of fermentation is complete, bring it up to about 65F from 55F. My lagers might see 10 days or so in the fermenter, usually a little less.

I do "lager" actually. It's just happening in the bottle, not the fermenter. I believe it's somewhat of a misnomer that the yeast are doing anything really after they have flocculated. But what is happening is the chill haze proteins and polyphenols will drop out and produce a bright beer. I would have no problem serving a slightly hazy IPA or something that has only been in the fridge for a week, but I wouldn't dare serve a lager until it was clear and bright. I've also found that the nature of the carbonation and body is much better after the haze has dropped out. Nice tight beaded bubbles and much more stable foam.

Makes sense. This is what i do, except for I lager in the carboy instead of the bottles.

This line of thinking suggests that the traditional belief of lagers needing X days at 45 degrees, X+Y days at 40 degrees, and X+Y+Z days at 32 degrees isn't true. If the point is just to get stuff to drop out, you would lager for the shortest amount of time at 32 degrees and the longest amount of time at 45 (eg)

I do think in general the state of the art for lagers at the homebrew level is underdeveloped compared to ales.