Lactobacillus Plantarum temp tolerance

[Rob2010SS]

Hey peeps. I'm doing a kettle sour and I used the bootleg biology sour weapon L. I purchased it back in November of '17. Per Jeff at bootleg biologys' recommendations, i made a starter with it due to how long it sat in my fridge (800mL starter). I pitched that at 8pm Saturday night (starter temp was maybe 70*F and wort temp was about 95*F at time of pitch). Here we are at 930pm on Monday and the pH is only 3.7. I realized today that i had a temperature mishap where the temps were sitting at 115*F. I feel this is why the pH is so slow moving but not sure. Is 115*F capable of killing the lacto? I cooled it down to 90 and have kept it there since.

 

[Kent88]

I'm not a pro when it comes to lacto, but 115 does seem like it is close, but perhaps just within the tolerance of lacto. I think that the variety of lacto I use for yogurt works at that temperature.

3.7 sounds pretty acidic too me. What pH are you aiming for?

 

[Rob2010SS]

I'm aiming for a pH of 3.2. That's the pH range my wife and I like. Anything higher than that is just mildly tart, lol.

 

[Rob2010SS]

So, checked it again this morning. Same reading. I need to add something....

What are the Goodbelly things I have read about? Are those available at grocery stores? What exactly am I looking for there?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

How are you measuring pH? I bought a $15 pH meter off Amazon, and while I am still getting used to it, it seems finicky in terms of calibration. I got what I paid for, honestly, since a pricey meter was not an option.

I used http://goodbelly.com/straight-shot/ (bought from Whole foods for $3 for a carton of 4). I used two to start, then after 12 hours there was no change, so I put in the other two. I let the first two warm to room temperature, and in retrospect that might have been a mistake, or my pH meter was reading wonky.

The pH at 24 hours was 3.30, subject to the caveat that the pH meter calibration might be wonky. It originally read 3.90, but after recalibrating it was 3.30.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Same, checking it with a cheap pH meter that I think was also $15. Here's the link to it...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CTJXWFP/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That's my next step currently is re-calibrate the meter and see what I get. I did rush order a packet of Omega OYL-605 that will be here tomorrow. In the meantime i'll re calibrate and see what happens. I may see about the goodbelly shots to just have as backup then.

 

[Rob2010SS]

So, I recalibrated my pH meter and it appears it was off. The reading is 3.4 and been holding there for over a full day.

Still not happy with the pH reading. I really want a 3.0 - 3.2. If I put a pack of omega oyl 605 lacto in now, will the bugs survive it and will it drop the pH further?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

So, I recalibrated my pH meter and it appears it was off. The reading is 3.4 and been holding there for over a full day. Still not happy with the pH reading. I really want a 3.0 - 3.2. If I put a pack of omega oyl 605 lacto in now, will the bugs survive it and will it drop the pH further?

I listened to Milk the Funk's podcast with one of the scientists from Omega, and he recommends starters 100% of the time with OYL-605. Personally, having a batch of sweet (even if soured . . .) wort sitting round for four, going on five days is risky in terms of infection, and I would chalk it up as a learning experience, boil, and pitch yeast. Pulling samples to test pH is going to up the risk of infection even without the time factor.

In terms of getting the pH where you want it, OYL-605 may do it, and it may not. Since lactic acid is a by-product, and will eventually kill the plantarum, pitching a pack without a starter is going in to a hostile environment with already stressed bacteria, and looking to finish the most difficult part of the process - it seems like a lot to ask to me. My 2¢, anyway.

 

[RPh_Guy]

FYI - pH meters need to be calibrated before each use (at least once a day), and the probe stored properly between uses.

If I put a pack of omega oyl 605 lacto in now, will the bugs survive it and will it drop the pH further?

That's a good option. Add some fresh non-boiled yeast nutrient (something with B vitamins e.g. Fermaid K) when you add the OYL culture.
Any source of Lacto could still work at this point, doesn't necessarily need to be from Omega.
A starter will be counter-productive at this point because you need it ASAP.

One thing to keep in mind is that pH doesn't actually measure how sour the beer will taste, it's more of a tool to measure the progress of the Lacto.

 

[JLump]

This weekend I kettle soured with some L. Plantarum pills. No starter, just pre-acidified with lactic acid to 4.4 and added 5 pills of the lacto. pH was 3.21 after 36 hours at 95F. For my last kettle sour, I made a starter and achieved the same thing in 24 hours.

As a side note, I broke open the pills and poured in the powder by hand.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Since lactic acid is a by-product, and will eventually kill the plantarum, pitching a pack without a starter is going in to a hostile environment with already stressed bacteria,

LAB aren't killed by the acid immediately, their metabolism stops. After a few weeks to months they will die.

This weekend I kettle soured with some L. Plantarum pills. No starter, just pre-acidified with lactic acid to 4.4 and added 5 pills of the lacto. pH was 3.21 after 36 hours at 95F.

Nice! Swanson brand?

 

[JLump]

Nice! Swanson brand?

Yes. They have also been sitting in the fridge for 6 months. I love those little guys!

 

[Rob2010SS]

I listened to Milk the Funk's podcast with one of the scientists from Omega, and he recommends starters 100% of the time with OYL-605. Personally, having a batch of sweet (even if soured . . .) wort sitting round for four, going on five days is risky in terms of infection, and I would chalk it up as a learning experience, boil, and pitch yeast. Pulling samples to test pH is going to up the risk of infection even without the time factor.

In terms of getting the pH where you want it, OYL-605 may do it, and it may not. Since lactic acid is a by-product, and will eventually kill the plantarum, pitching a pack without a starter is going in to a hostile environment with already stressed bacteria, and looking to finish the most difficult part of the process - it seems like a lot to ask to me. My 2¢, anyway.

Thanks for the feedback. Understood about the risk. I haven't been too worried about infections because the temp has been controlled (after my mishap of course), it's been sealed and covered on top, and samples have been taken from a valve on the kettle. The top hasn't been exposed at all. The OYL 605 is coming today so I think I may try it and see how it goes. I've never used a starter with OYL605 out of the 3 times I've used it and it has always worked great. Not saying that I shouldn't do a starter with it, but I've had some good success with it.

FYI - pH meters need to be calibrated before each use (at least once a day), and the probe stored properly between uses.

That's a good option. Add some fresh non-boiled yeast nutrient (something with B vitamins e.g. Fermaid K) when you add the OYL culture.
Any source of Lacto could still work at this point, doesn't necessarily need to be from Omega.
A starter will be counter-productive at this point because you need it ASAP.

One thing to keep in mind is that pH doesn't actually measure how sour the beer will taste, it's more of a tool to measure the progress of the Lacto.

Yeah, that's what I'm realizing with my pH meter. I'm calibrating every use now and I have it stored upright in the 4.01 solution. Understood that it doesn't have to be Omega lacto, but that's what I ordered in a panic yesterday in order to fix this. It'll be here today. $8.00 for the lacto, $40 for shipping overnight, LOL.

If this doesn't work, then I'll chalk it up to a learning experience and finish it out.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yikes that's like the cost of a whole batch.

Hope it works!

 

[TwistedGray]

If you really want to learn about Lacto...

 

[Rob2010SS]

Another thought popped in my head. Lactobacillus produces lactic acid. Could i just add 88% lactic acid to drop this the few points in looking for?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Another thought popped in my head. Lactobacillus produces lactic acid. Could i just add 88% lactic acid to drop this the few points in looking for?

That's an option if you don't mind cheating

Sometimes people taste chemical off-flavors. Others don't. Maybe it depends in the product? Try tasting it diluted in water.

@TwistedGray lol! I think my phone got a layer of dust on it when I opened that pdf of 100 year old text.

No one actually answered the OP's question about temp tolerance.
It varies by species and possibly by strain. If memory serves, L. plantarum is generally inhibited above 105°F and dies around 140°F.

 

[TwistedGray]

@TwistedGray lol! I think my phone got a layer of dust on it when I opened that pdf of 100 year old text.

Lol, got it from my wife's microbiology class, IIRC.

 

[cmac62]

Interesting thread. I am thinking about doing a kettle sour, and worried about infection with the wort sitting around for days. Also, I ferment in my dining room and the temp is generally around 75. Is this too cool to work? I suppose I could leave it in my man cave (the shed in the backyard), but there it will get warm during the day and cool at night (last night it got down to almost 55). I love the weather in So Cal.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Interesting thread. I am thinking about doing a kettle sour, and worried about infection with the wort sitting around for days. Also, I ferment in my dining room and the temp is generally around 75. Is this too cool to work? I suppose I could leave it in my man cave (the shed in the backyard), but there it will get warm during the day and cool at night (last night it got down to almost 55). I love the weather in So Cal.

Boiling, pre-acidification, and pitching a healthy Lacto culture all greatly reduce the risk of unwanted infection, assuming proper handling. Some purge with CO2 but I haven't found that necessary.

75°F is plenty warm enough for L. plantarum.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Interesting thread. I am thinking about doing a kettle sour, and worried about infection with the wort sitting around for days. Also, I ferment in my dining room and the temp is generally around 75. Is this too cool to work? I suppose I could leave it in my man cave (the shed in the backyard), but there it will get warm during the day and cool at night (last night it got down to almost 55). I love the weather in So Cal.

They're actually really easy if you don't screw up the temp like I did. Couple of tips...

- Plan for like 3 days from the time you start to the time you finish. Start it on day one, add the lacto, and let it sit for a day or two and then finish it.

- Pitch at the high end of the temp range and let it just free fall or keep your kettle on your stove and heat it up as necessary to keep the temp where you want it.

 

[JLump]

Boiling, pre-acidification, and pitching a healthy Lacto culture all greatly reduce the risk of unwanted infection, assuming proper handling. Some purge with CO2 but I haven't found that necessary.

75°F is plenty warm enough for L. plantarum.

+1 to this. I will say though that I have had good success just pitching the pills with no starter.

 

[cmac62]

Do you boil it twice? I thought it was boiled post lacto and therefore less of a worry for infecting equipment.

Pre acidification, use lactic acid, how much? Can find it at LHBS?

Where do you get the L-plantarum?

 

[Rob2010SS]

Once the mash is drained i boil for about 10 min to make sure there's nothing unwanted in the kettle.

Once the lacto does its thing and you're happy with the amount of sourness, then perform your normal boil and add hops as desired

 

[Rob2010SS]

So yes, technically boiling twice

 

[cmac62]

I would think the wort sitting at 170 and cooling from there would pasteurize everything. I suppose I could sanitize the pot before I drain the MT into it for extra protection and then pitch a big lacto starter.

Do you get the L-P stuff at a healthfood store or something like that? Is it basically a yogurt starter? Thanks

 

[Rob2010SS]

I'm a sanitation freak so the boil just makes me feel better prior to pitching lacto. It could be unnecessary.

In regards to stuff at a health food store, never used it. I always buy the commercial strains

 

[RPh_Guy]

pitching the pills

Sounds like a "healthy Lacto culture" to me
It's the people who just pitch a handful of grain who get into trouble.... Or maybe old pills that weren't refrigerated.

Do you boil it twice?

"Pasteurization" kills most bacteria. Boiling before souring is the best way to avoid infection. It is optional...and might not be necessary if you pre-acidify.

Your lhbs should have lactic acid (88% solution). Roughly 1mL per 0.1 you need to drop pH of a 5 gal batch. Just keep adding until you reach 4.0-4.5.

Your lhbs might have OYL-605 Lacto blend. Other yeast labs have cultures too. Some people like WY5335 but it's not one I'd recommend. Otherwise there are probiotics (Swanson's, GoodBelly, RenewLife) or yogurt. Some people make starters from wild Lacto. Lots of options.

Cheers

 

[sborz22]

Interesting thread. I am thinking about doing a kettle sour, and worried about infection with the wort sitting around for days. Also, I ferment in my dining room and the temp is generally around 75. Is this too cool to work? I suppose I could leave it in my man cave (the shed in the backyard), but there it will get warm during the day and cool at night (last night it got down to almost 55). I love the weather in So Cal.

Pre-acidification to 4.5 will ward off unwanted bacteria and once the Lacto takes off (which if in the 80s-90s degree F range that will be almost immediate) you are golden.

I have done a handful of kettle sours and they are easy to keep clean.

Another note: don’t worry about having a perfect seal while letting Plantarum work. I believe it may be heterolactic but there are no off flavors produced. Therefore, you can truly let the beer sour in the kettle(with lid on) and toss it right back onto your burner when ready!

Cheers to sour beers!

 

[westchesterBrewer]

For my last kettle sour, I made a starter and achieved the same thing in 24 hours.

Can you elaborate a bit more on how you made your starter? Such as starter size for how big of a batch? How many pills you used?

I just got my L. Plantarum pills in the mail and am eager to make a starter. Thanks!

 

[JLump]

Can you elaborate a bit more on how you made your starter? Such as starter size for how big of a batch? How many pills you used?

I just got my L. Plantarum pills in the mail and am eager to make a starter. Thanks!

500ml starter at 1.035 SG for 5 gallons. If you have some food grade chalk to add its ideal because it will buffer the pH, but not necessary. Pulled open 3 pills and added the powder. Let sit for 24 hours. Don't oxygenate. Never oxygenate with lacto.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Can you elaborate a bit more on how you made your starter? Such as starter size for how big of a batch? How many pills you used?

I just got my L. Plantarum pills in the mail and am eager to make a starter. Thanks!

I've done L. Plantarum with starters and without. For the non-starter, I've just tossed the contents of 3-4 capsules in the wort, and ultimately I haven't noticed any difference from when I did make a starter. I find it (for myself) to be an unnecessary step if I'm not doing it to save some for future use (overbuilding).

 

[cmac62]

So this past weekend I went to sprouts looking for this L. Plantarum stuff and there wasn't anything on the shelf or fridge that said only L. Plantarum. It was all probiotic stuff and there was LP in them, but nothing with only LP. I did buy some goodbelly, what do you do with this stuff? Dump it into the wort or make a starter?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Dump it into the wort or make a starter?

Either way works. Most goodbelly users seem to just pour it in. To sour in 24-48 hours it helps to have close to "ale pitch rates".

FYI I use a mixed probiotic. It works great.

 

[Biobrewer]

Not sure about other labs, but Plantarum is the majority component in our Yeast Bay Lacto Blend, and it sours really well in the 70-90 F range, increasing in acid production as you move upward in that range. As you get over 100 F range, souring occurs much more slowly. I have also observed this with Plantarum alone. If you're using Plantarum or any blend that has that as a major component, I would definitely cap the temperature at 95 F max.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172956392888

 

[Rob2010SS]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172956392888

Alright, dumb question, and I know I've seen people talking about it on HBT, but you can really use these? $5 for 30 capsules, that's pretty cheap. This can be used for kettle souring?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Absolutely. Works well - refrigerate upon arrival, though. 1 cap per 1 gal is suggested.

 

[IslandLizard]

It'll be here today. $8.00 for the lacto, $40 for shipping

OUCH!!!
That would have been better spent on a decent pH meter, such as a Hach Pocket Pro+. $48 would have put you 1/3 in that direction already.
Why were you worried about those last 2 points? Your wife could have told you when it's just perfect.

Those cheap pH meters are a crap shoot, and even when they give you a stable reading, you'd never know if it's accurate. It could easily be off by 0.2 just because of its limited accuracy (0.1) and limited resolution (0.1).

For more reading on pH meters and why those cheapo Chinese made ones are very limited in their use, read the stickies on the Brew Science Forum.

 

[Rob2010SS]

OUCH!!!
That would have been better spent on a decent pH meter, such as a Hach Pocket Pro+. $48 would have put you 1/3 in that direction already.
Why were you worried about those last 2 points? Your wife could have told you when it's just perfect.

Those cheap pH meters are a crap shoot, and even when they give you a stable reading, you'd never know if it's accurate. It could easily be off by 0.2 just because of its limited accuracy (0.1) and limited resolution (0.1).

For more reading on pH meters and why those cheapo Chinese made ones are very limited in their use, read the stickies on the Brew Science Forum.

Yeah.... I know. Waste of money on that one. I regret it a bit but I'll chalk it up to a learning experience.

I think I'm going to buy some of these L. Plantarum pills to have on hand for future cases like this.