Lacto. Starter

[flbrewer1]

What would be the difference is doing a lacto starter with raw grain compared to pitching a vial of lacto in the starter instead?

Secondly, how important is an airlock on this type of starter compared to a piece of tight foil over it like I normally use for traditional starters?

 

[microbusbrewery]

You get a single pure culture with commercial packages. Grain can have a variety of organisms, so it can be a bit of a gamble. I tend to use pure cultures or dregs from commercial sours. I use foil but an airlock should work fine too. I would recommend not using a foam stopper because you do want to limit oxygen exposure.

 

[burninator]

I have a wild culture that I made a starter of first, to control the environment and check it for off flavors/smells before pitching. My impression is that you can get a more robust and complex culture this way than if you purchased one. If you're going to the trouble of a lacto culture, I'd go ahead and use an airlock, while you're at it.

 

[daksin]

You get a single pure culture with commercial packages. Grain can have a variety of organisms, so it can be a bit of a gamble. I tend to use pure cultures or dregs from commercial sours. I use foil but an airlock should work fine too. I would recommend not using a foam stopper because you do want to limit oxygen exposure.

I wouldn't be too fussed about oxygen exposure for normal yeast or sacc/brett cultures. If you're making a starter, fermentation is happening and positive pressure from CO2 production is pushing out. Typically though this argument goes that you should get as much oxygen exposure as possible for a starter- what's the theory behind limiting it? Is this specific to culturing bacteria/sour starters?

 

[brewmeister13]

I wouldn't be too fussed about oxygen exposure for normal yeast or sacc/brett cultures. If you're making a starter, fermentation is happening and positive pressure from CO2 production is pushing out. Typically though this argument goes that you should get as much oxygen exposure as possible for a starter- what's the theory behind limiting it? Is this specific to culturing bacteria/sour starters?

Lacto is anaerobic, doesn't need oxygen, while the wild bacterias that tend to smell like fecal and rotting garbage cans are aerobic. By eliminating oxygen you are selecting for Lacto and giving it an advantage.

While you are at it, I'd drop the pH to 4.5 prior to pitching grain if you are going the wild route. It further helps to limit the proliferation of other types of bacteria and gives Lacto the advantage. If you can try to keep the temp warm too (100-120). This is where the Lacto will multiply the fastest. I could only keep mine in the 80-90 though and it came out great with an airlock, flushing the vessel with CO2 and dropping the pH.

 

[SpeedYellow]

If you're new to lacto, I strongly advise making like 3 starters, each with different lacto sources. E.g. commercial source, probiotics, yogurt, raw grains. After 2 days you'll be able to judge which source gives you the souring level you want, the flavor you want, and isn't fermenting out your wort. Lacto isn't like yeast -- you never know exactly what you've got.

And remember, absolutely NO hops in the starter or wort.

 

[flbrewer1]

Still perplexed as to whether this is working or not. Used a vial of Lacto. D. and a liter of apple juice (boiled) with a liter of soda water on top of it. Airlock and temps kept around 100 for 48 hours now.

I don't see any activity on the top at all. I do however see this on the bottom along the wall of the flask...any ideas?

 

[brewmeister13]

Do you have a pH meter? That would really tell you if anything is happening. If not, you should be seeing airlock activity with this strain as it is heterofermentative, capable of fermenting sugars and producing alcohol.

Just a few other things. First, with apple juice, if it is fresh from a sealed container there is no need to boil it. Second, why soda water as well? I've never heard of this.

 

[SpeedYellow]

If you don't have a ph meter (big mistake for a lacto user) then all you can do is taste it to check for souring.

I've heard of folks using apple juice and sparkling water on top but I see no sense in either. Normal starter wort is fine, purged with co2 if desired. But once you figure out your lacto source, you probably won't even need a starter. My current fave is Goodbelly probiotic juice (l. Plantarum), no starter needed.

 

[iijakii]

I used apple juice with handfulls of grain. Juice was quick and easy instead of boiling cooling DME etc. Plus I've heard with the lower pH it's a bit 'safer' that only the lacto will take off.

I made two identical ones and one was way more tart than the other, so I selected that. I taste tested for tartness. I think the idea up above of trying one from grain, one from yogurt, etc is a fantastic idea.

 

[ArcLight]

Do you have a pH meter? That would really tell you if anything is happening. If not, you should be seeing airlock activity with this strain as it is heterofermentative, capable of fermenting sugars and producing alcohol.

Just a few other things. First, with apple juice, if it is fresh from a sealed container there is no need to boil it. Second, why soda water as well? I've never heard of this.

The soda water allows you to fill up the head space with a deoxygenated liquid.

Do we know if this Lacto strain is homofermentative or heterofermentative?
If using Apple Juice as a growth medium instead of Wort, maybe add some yeast nutrient.

http://textbookofbacteriology.net/lactics_2.html

 

[brewmeister13]

According to Tonsmeire, www.themadfermentationist.com/p/commercial-cultures.html, it is heterofermentative. I trust his information, though I'm not sure where he got it from (in all likely hood an email to WhiteLabs and they would confirm this).

 

[ArcLight]

According to Tonsmeire, www.themadfermentationist.com/p/commercial-cultures.html, it is heterofermentative. I trust his information, though I'm not sure where he got it from (in all likely hood an email to WhiteLabs and they would confirm this).

Actually, he says this particular strain of Lacto is heterofermentative: WY5223-PC Lactobacillus brevis
He does not say all Lacto strains are heterofermentative.
In fact, lower down he writes:

Lacto2 – Isolated from prickly pear fruit. More aggressive acidity. Homofermentative (i.e., produces lactic acid without ethanol).

If you use raw grain as your source of Lacto, you can't be sure what you are getting.


In any case, I like the idea of acidifying the starter and keeping it Oxygen free to make life hard on other unwanted microbes.