Kettle Souring - Low PH tolerant strain for fermentation?

[sancycling]

Hello,
I'm diving into sour beer brewing and will be trying to use kettle souring technique for my first batch. So I have many questions. I don't care if I'm really into style, I just want to make something tasty. Will be using a typical Flanders Red grain bill.

1) What should I use for the kettle souring? Options: WLP672 Lactobacillus brevis or WLP677 Lactobacillus delbrueckii, perhaps both? I only have access to White Labs products.
2) Should I expect a gravity drop after 2 - 3 days of Kettle souring?
3) What should I use for primary fermentation after boiling and adding hops? I'm looking for a low PH tolerant strain. I was thinking of doing a 100% Brett fermentation as I believe it tolerates low PH well and will eat some of the Lacto byproducts. Or should I use some Sacc strain that is low PH tolerant and then add the Brett for secondary and ageing?

I appreciate the input.

 

[TAK]

1) you say you only have access to White Labs. I assume that's what your LHBS carries, but I'd recomend turning to some online sourcing. This is what I've used, and it's great for kettle souring!
http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/lacto-blend-oyl-605/

2) possibly, but it shouldn't drop much if all you have is lacto in there (I.e., no rogue yeasts make it in.) the blend I recommended should get you there in about 24 hours, so it shouldn't be an issue.

3) I believe that most strains should do fine. I think the pH tolerance has more to do with yeast health after being in a low pH environment. Brett will do great of course, but I think most yeast strains will get you there, as long as you're not looking to reuse the cake.

 

[SwitchbladeSquirrel]

I have a kettle sour fermenting right now that I soured with a direct pitch of non-fat greek yogurt that contained several live cultures. Within 48 hours, it soured to about 3.5 pH and only reached 3.2 pH after a full week of kettle souring. In retrospect, I wish I would have taken a pH reading at 24 hours.

A pale ale grist produced wort that tasted like sour lemondrop candy before adding hops. Yogurt is definitely a viable and less expensive option!

In terms of gravity, the gravity actually rose after souring, I assume from the addition of the yogurt (lactose?). It is currently fermenting on Vermont/Conan yeast. While I have not taken another gravity reading (not messing with it until its been at least two weeks), it is showing all the normal signs of healthy fermentation.

 

[Hommel]

1) What should I use for the kettle souring? Options: WLP672 Lactobacillus brevis or WLP677 Lactobacillus delbrueckii, perhaps both? I only have access to White Labs products.

[hommel] i've done a bunch of testing so you can see how the different strains performed and how long they took to sour. it is widely believed that white labs lacto is contaminated with yeast which my own experimentation has found to be true as well. i now use lacto from my local health food store or omega yeast lacto blend and have had great success with both.

http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?cat=28
http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?cat=4
http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?cat=38

a lot of people and breweries also use the lacto off of grain but i've had very mixed results so i now stick with "pure" pitches. i can't tell you how many times someone has handled me a berliner soured with grain and told me with a straight face how clean it is only to take a sip and immediately try and come up with a nice way to tell them there beer tastes great except the subtle hints of baby diaper and vomit.


2) Should I expect a gravity drop after 2 - 3 days of Kettle souring?

[hommel] you should not see measurable gravity drop if your lacto pitch is pure. lots of discussion on it here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=557638

3) What should I use for primary fermentation after boiling and adding hops? I'm looking for a low PH tolerant strain. I was thinking of doing a 100% Brett fermentation as I believe it tolerates low PH well and will eat some of the Lacto byproducts. Or should I use some Sacc strain that is low PH tolerant and then add the Brett for secondary and ageing?

[hommel] if your pH is 3.5+ then most strains will likely be ok. then again your beer won't be very sour. i like my sours more on the aggressive side <=3.2 and at those levels most beer strains seem to poop out, even ones that are supposedly low pH tolerant like german ale. i have had best luck with wine yeast. wine must is naturally a much lower pH than beer wort so those yeast are much happier at low pH. that said, i have had some success with german ale and even cal ale at low pH but you would want to make sure you have a happy, active pitch. i've also had good success with brett at low pH. here are my notes on a recent bw brett experiment i split a kettle sour to primary wine yeast, wine yeast primary + brett secondary and primary brett.

http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?cat=52

 

[Grannyknot]

I have a kettle sour fermenting right now that I soured with a direct pitch of non-fat greek yogurt that contained several live cultures. Within 48 hours, it soured to about 3.5 pH and only reached 3.2 pH after a full week of kettle souring. In retrospect, I wish I would have taken a pH reading at 24 hours.

A pale ale grist produced wort that tasted like sour lemondrop candy before adding hops. Yogurt is definitely a viable and less expensive option!

In terms of gravity, the gravity actually rose after souring, I assume from the addition of the yogurt (lactose?). It is currently fermenting on Vermont/Conan yeast. While I have not taken another gravity reading (not messing with it until its been at least two weeks), it is showing all the normal signs of healthy fermentation.

+1 to the greek yogurt recommendation.

In primary fermentation, i've used 001, 029, & 072 and got 80% attenuation when wort pH is 3.3-3.5. I just make sure it is a healthy pitch & use yeast nutrient. 072 may be a decent yeast for a flanders red.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Personally I've really been enjoying using the Swanson's Lacto Plantarum capsules for these types of sour beers.

They're super cheap, work really quickly, and you don't need to keep them warm. Just pitch them in when the wort is at about 90-95F, and then let the temp fall over the 24-48 hours while it sours. No problem going from 5.4 pH to 3.2 in just a couple of days.

I use 1 capsule per gallon and just toss them in. One thing to watch out for is that this strain is really sensitive to hops, so I'd make sure you only add any hops you want after you're done souring.

Also I don't seem to have any issues then pitching WLP029 Kölsch yeast in this type of environment. Still manage to get about 80% attenuation, even fermenting cool at like 58F.

The OYL-605 blend that someone mentioned previously also contains plantarum; however, you can compare the price of the pills and see how much cheaper it is. Also, you don't need a starter with the pills.

 

[NoahBeach]

Another vote for probiotics. I use these and they work great. Plus it's 300B cells for $15. I usually stick to the 1 capsule/1 Gallon rule of thumb. So just using pills (no starters) and you have (6) 5G batches for $15, where as a White Labs vial is around 3B cells, which pretty much requires you to do a starter, and is $8 a piece.

For me L. Plantarum takes 5 Gallons of 4.5 wort down to 3.5 in around 24 hours.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

A great resource on some of the Lacto strains out there and how they sour over time at what temps can be found here. It doesn't take long with the plantarum.

 

[mitchard]

Did a kettle sour Berliner recently that finished out just fine with Safale US-05 after a mango Goodbelly drink got it down to around 3.25. One of the large cartons of the Goodbelly got a 10 gallon batch down to 3.25 in around 72 hrs. As noted, you shouldn't expect to see any real drop in gravity unless you have a Sacc contamination.

 

[sancycling]

Thanks for all the responses.
I decided to purchase Swanson's Lacto Plantarum and check it out. I think this should reduce the chance to get yeast contamination and get attenuation while kettle souring.

Also it seems that pretty much any yeast strain should be able to do a good job fermenting low PH wort ~3.3 - 3.5. I'll go the cheap way and try with a healthy rehydrated pitch of US05.

I'll experiment with an 100% Brett fermentation in another beer. I don't want to have too many unknown variables.

 

[whrswoldo]

I did a kettle sour as well on Saturday using WLP677 (no starter). PH is dropping slowwwwwlyyyyy. I wish I had stumbled on this thread first; I'll definitely try the probiotics for my next attempt.

 

[ghohn]

I've been using milk kefir grains. 2L starter in a PET bottle in yogurt maker with a C02 carb cap to purge. Then that added to 5 gallons of wort gets me to Low 3.x pH in 2-3 days at 90f. Super clean.

 

[BrewDawg79]

I did a kettle sour as well on Saturday using WLP677 (no starter). PH is dropping slowwwwwlyyyyy. I wish I had stumbled on this thread first; I'll definitely try the probiotics for my next attempt.

I did the same thing only added Wyeast 5335. Wish I would have seen this thread earlier. I'll be picking up some probiotics for the next batch.

 

[Bisco_Ben]

So after reading this thread, I picked up some of the swansons capsules as well. I was wondering though, do you guys open the capsules and dump in the contents or just throw the whole capsule into the wort?

 

[Agate]

Either way is fine. They dissolve after about 30 minutes tops.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Yeah, just toss them in. It couldn't be simpler. I've been using about 1 per gallon with great results. Pitch them in at 95-100F, put the fermenter in a my fermentation chamber (with nothing plugged in - just to measure temp and keep it insulated), and after about 48 hours it's usually dropped down to about 80F and a pH of 3.2.

 

[Hommel]

so maybe swansons has changed their packaging? i put 3 capsules in a 1L starter at ~90F and they opened and some lacto came out but they never dissolved and a lot of the lacto never made it out of the casing.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Well that's the first I've heard of that. I'm pretty sure they will dissolve in just warm water.

 

[zgja2]

Another vote for Good Belly probiotic drink. Its readily available and cheap. Bring wort to quick boil, drop it to 100, add lactic acid to 4.5, co2 purge the kettle, seal it up with saran wrap and tape, insulate it or set your pid to 90.

Takes about 24-36 hours then boil and proceed as normal.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I used a pint of the good belly coconut water in my fermentation chamber after chilling to ~90f and then swamped the carboy in some icewater and pitched S-05 12h later. The batch turned out nice and tart and fruity. The temperatures kept the S-05 from krausening for about a week, but then it took off just fine bringing the brew from 1.06 to 1.012.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I would just point out that the L. Plantarum capsules are a fraction of the cost of the Goodbelly shots, and since you're pitching a pure strain of Lacto, you don't need to mess with any of that saran wrap, CO2 purging, etc.

They're so cheap it doesn't even really make sense to make a starter due to the time you'd waste and the cost of the DME, etc.

Seriously, you can get 60 capsules for $10, and even using 1 per gallon like I do is really overkill. To each his own, but just throwing in my 2 cents for thought.

 

[VasDeferensly]

This is awesome, I've been looking at making the Training Wheels Berliner (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=579458) and it turns out that I already have the probiotic I need. You guys just saved me $6! (and having to bother with a starter)

 

[ArthurDigbySellers]

I used grain to sour my first-ever BW and it worked perfectly but I think I'll try the capsule method the next time. I just seems easier. Not having to try to keep the temp at ~100 will be nice too.

 

[Morrey]

I used grain to sour my first-ever BW and it worked perfectly but I think I'll try the capsule method the next time. I just seems easier. Not having to try to keep the temp at ~100 will be nice too.

Good point on the temp. L Plantarum sours nicely at ambient temps which are in the mid 80's F here in SC. Anything that doesn't have to be handled in a temp controlled situation is always the most convenient.

 

[Morrey]

I would just point out that the L. Plantarum capsules are a fraction of the cost of the Goodbelly shots, and since you're pitching a pure strain of Lacto, you don't need to mess with any of that saran wrap, CO2 purging, etc.

They're so cheap it doesn't even really make sense to make a starter due to the time you'd waste and the cost of the DME, etc.

Seriously, you can get 60 capsules for $10, and even using 1 per gallon like I do is really overkill. To each his own, but just throwing in my 2 cents for thought.

Funny side note: I was souring a wort this weekend in my outdoor brewcave which is dried in but still kinda roughed in with concrete floors, open stud walls, etc...much like many enclosed garages would be. Checking the next morning, I had a line of tiny (sugar) ants marching up the legs of my burner in the kettle. They were small enough to get under the kettle lid and at least 20-30 were "swimming" in the wort. Your saran wrap line made me chuckle since I better use some next sour day.

The ants were dipped out pre-boil so no any harm done. I usually dream up names for my beers, so this one is called "ANT EATER GOSE".

 

[sancycling]

It took me a long time to get everything I needed to brew my first BW. I will be kegging it tonight or tomorrow.

Here is my process and results if anyone is interested.
- Grain Bill: OG 1.050. Pilsen Malt 85%, White Wheat Malt 12.5%, Cara Pils 2.5%
- Mashed at 150 for 75 minutes. Batch sparge as I normally do.
- Boiled for 10 minutes (no hops)
- Cooled to 110F, adjusted PH to 4.5 with lactic acid.
- Transfered to "modified" keg. I connected CO2 to the liquid out post and adapted an airlock in the Gas in post. I did this as I don't have a SS kettle, low PH and aluminium don't go well together.
- Pitched 6 capsules of rehydrated Swanson's L.Plantarum to the keg.
- Purged the keg with CO2 going down the liquid post for about 5 minutes.
- I rigged a system to keep the keg submersed in 110F water while souring.

OG: 1.052, initial PH 4.5
24H... PH 4.5
36H... The beer had a kraussen and airlock activity. I was concerned it was fermenting with some sort of Sacc.
48H... PH 4.5 (I got worried and added 10 capsules directly into the wort). Purged again with CO2
72H... PH 3.6 Gravity 1.047 (I lost quite a bit of volume as there was a ton of Lacto in the bottom of the keg.
- Transfered to two small SS kettles and boilded for 90 minutes. Added 20IBU's of Sorachi Ace hops at 20min. It had a horrible Crem Corn Smell, but it went away with the long boil.
- Cooled to 65F and pitched a pack of SO5 rehydrated. Oxygenated for 60sec with O2 and stone. After boil I got a few more points 1.052
- Airlock activity started about 18hrs later.
- It's been tree weeks in the fermentor so I'll keg hopefully tonight and measure FG... I'm expecting 1.010 or so.

I tasted and smelled the beer several times during the process. I was not at all sour until the 72H time. The cream corn flavor and smell was pretty bad but the sourness was quite smooth. After boiling for the 90 mins and adding hops I could taste what I'm sure is going to be a nice beer. Of course it was sweet, but the sourness and the hops seemed to be quite balanced. I'll update how precarbed beer tastes.

I'm enjoying my first sour attempt. I hope it ends up being a beer as good as the enjoyment.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Funny side note: I was souring a wort this weekend in my outdoor brewcave which is dried in but still kinda roughed in with concrete floors, open stud walls, etc...much like many enclosed garages would be. Checking the next morning, I had a line of tiny (sugar) ants marching up the legs of my burner in the kettle. They were small enough to get under the kettle lid and at least 20-30 were "swimming" in the wort. Your saran wrap line made me chuckle since I better use some next sour day.

The ants were dipped out pre-boil so no any harm done. I usually dream up names for my beers, so this one is called "ANT EATER GOSE".

I'm sorry you got ants in your beer, but that is a heck of a beer name if I've ever heard one!

It took me a long time to get everything I needed to brew my first BW. I will be kegging it tonight or tomorrow.

Here is my process and results if anyone is interested.
- Grain Bill: OG 1.050. Pilsen Malt 85%, White Wheat Malt 12.5%, Cara Pils 2.5%
- Mashed at 150 for 75 minutes. Batch sparge as I normally do.
- Boiled for 10 minutes (no hops)
- Cooled to 110F, adjusted PH to 4.5 with lactic acid.
- Transfered to "modified" keg. I connected CO2 to the liquid out post and adapted an airlock in the Gas in post. I did this as I don't have a SS kettle, low PH and aluminium don't go well together.
- Pitched 6 capsules of rehydrated Swanson's L.Plantarum to the keg.
- Purged the keg with CO2 going down the liquid post for about 5 minutes.
- I rigged a system to keep the keg submersed in 110F water while souring.

OG: 1.052, initial PH 4.5
24H... PH 4.5
36H... The beer had a kraussen and airlock activity. I was concerned it was fermenting with some sort of Sacc.
48H... PH 4.5 (I got worried and added 10 capsules directly into the wort). Purged again with CO2
72H... PH 3.6 Gravity 1.047 (I lost quite a bit of volume as there was a ton of Lacto in the bottom of the keg.
- Transfered to two small SS kettles and boilded for 90 minutes. Added 20IBU's of Sorachi Ace hops at 20min. It had a horrible Crem Corn Smell, but it went away with the long boil.
- Cooled to 65F and pitched a pack of SO5 rehydrated. Oxygenated for 60sec with O2 and stone. After boil I got a few more points 1.052
- Airlock activity started about 18hrs later.
- It's been tree weeks in the fermentor so I'll keg hopefully tonight and measure FG... I'm expecting 1.010 or so.

I tasted and smelled the beer several times during the process. I was not at all sour until the 72H time. The cream corn flavor and smell was pretty bad but the sourness was quite smooth. After boiling for the 90 mins and adding hops I could taste what I'm sure is going to be a nice beer. Of course it was sweet, but the sourness and the hops seemed to be quite balanced. I'll update how precarbed beer tastes.

I'm enjoying my first sour attempt. I hope it ends up being a beer as good as the enjoyment.

Why did you rehydrate the pills? You can either chuck them right in (they will dissolve relatively quickly in the warm wort) or just dump the contents straight in.

At 24 hours at 110F you should have had substantial souring. Since you had krausen and dropped 5 gravity points you most certainly had a yeast infection (brett or sacc). The cream corn smell would indicate that you had a mixed fermentation happening, not a pure strain of lacto doing the fermentation.

I'm not saying that rehydrating the pills caused that, was just curious why you chose to rehydrate them?

Also, if you're using L. Plantarum you really don't need to mess with keeping it warm. It sours just fine at even room temps. I just pitch mine in at 100F and let the temp free fall over 24-48 hours.

 

[crane]

Seriously, you can get 60 capsules for $10,

Where are you getting 60 capsules for $10? I can only find bottles of 30 and they are all around $10 a bottle.

 

[Morrey]

Where are you getting 60 capsules for $10? I can only find bottles of 30 and they are all around $10 a bottle.

Swanson Vitamins had L Plantarum on sale last week $9.99 for 30 caps, buy one get one free. You may find them still on sale but didn't check back since last week.

 

[crane]

Swanson Vitamins had L Plantarum on sale last week $9.99 for 30 caps, buy one get one free. You may find them still on sale but didn't check back since last week.

OK. They are still on sale if you buy directly from Swansons, but there is $5 shipping so it comes out to 15$ for 60 capsules.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

OK. They are still on sale if you buy directly from Swansons, but there is $5 shipping so it comes out to 15$ for 60 capsules.

They're on sale quite often, and trust me, once you buy from Swanson they will make sure to inform you of sales on a regular basis!

Even at $15 for 60 pills, that is an amazing bargain compared to $10-15 for a package of something like OYL-605.

 

[Morrey]

OK. They are still on sale if you buy directly from Swansons, but there is $5 shipping so it comes out to 15$ for 60 capsules.

Understood. I buy other supplements from them and take advantage of free shipping offers. I find Swansons supplements to be of high quality.

Even if you pay $15 total, 60 tabs will make you 12 batches of soured wort if you use 5 tabs. You can actually use 4 ...maybe 3 and be ok. For about $1 per sour, that's not a bad price.