Kettle Sour: What's a good base grist for fruit + how to assure that I will have head?

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fendersrule

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I'm ready to make 10-15 gallons of sour. I'm planning to divide into 3 batches and add pasturized fruit puree in each one.

I'm looking for a good base grist. 2-row + a little light caramel + flaked wheat?

Another thing, is that I used a similar base grist before, and I recall that the sour didn't have any head at all. Once you pour it, it fizzled out. How do you make a sour that actually retains a little bit of a head?
 
There's quite a few good kettle sours in the recipe database here on HBT, but referencing "Lambic" by Jean Guinar one fruit lambic recipe follows a 67% pale malt, 24% unmalted wheat and 8% Crystal 40L up to a 1.048 OG.

If you're kettle souring then use malted wheat and make sure to avoid oxygen during the souring.
 
Great, so replace the flaked wheat with malted wheat.

Is this why I had no head when I last made a kettle sour?
 
Acid kills head retention. When you figure it out, let me know.

If I was doing a kettle sour, I'd go all base malt - pils and wheat malt maybe. I don't see the need to get too fancy, especially if you're adding fruit puree.
 
I wonder how 10 Barrel Crush Sour does it then. It doesn't build up or linger like an ale does, but it does have head.

strawberry-crush-sour.jpg

images.jpg
 
You can add a pound of DME per 5 gallons of wort during the heat pasteurization process (after the wort has been soured with Lactobacillus). One could also steep specialty grains such as wheat malt, chit malt, carafoam, or carapils, and add the extract into the kettle during the heat pasteurization or boiling process. This will add back head formation proteins that were lost during the Lactobacillus fermentation
 
After the pre-sour and when it's time to move on boil day, you're saying that I can simply just add one lb of DME per 5 gallons? I only boil for 15 minutes just to kill things and to sanitize my chiller. Sounds like that should bring back some head...

That's an excellent idea if so....there could be a chance that my later fruit additions could add to the head as well?
 
The key is to add those proteins back after you sour your wort. When you boil to kill the lacto, add the dme. You will have noticeably better head retention regardless of final ph. Then, once you complete primary fermentation you can age further on the fruit/puree of your liking.
 
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Cool! Love the responses.
To answer the OP: I agree that there are other factors affecting the head other than just the grist. Even the some very good commercial lambics can have very short lived head.
On the topic of the wheat, since you are not doing a cereal cooking step, you need regular white wheat, not flaked.
 
the topic of the wheat, since you are not doing a cereal cooking step, you need regular white wheat, not flaked.
Flaked wheat (or raw, for that matter) will convert at sacch temps - a cereal mash isn't necessary.
 
You can add a pound of DME per 5 gallons of wort during the heat pasteurization process (after the wort has been soured with Lactobacillus). One could also steep specialty grains such as wheat malt, chit malt, carafoam, or carapils, and add the extract into the kettle during the heat pasteurization or boiling process. This will add back head formation proteins that were lost during the Lactobacillus fermentation

This seems like the way to go - just found the part in American Sour Beers where MT quotes Dr. Burghard Meyer. Lacto does indeed degrade proteins, adding them back should do the trick. Also, pre-acidify as RPH_Guy says.
 
Should I keep my mash PH around 5.3ish, and after the mash, acidity further to mid 4s? Just wondering why this is necessary when lacto will do this...
 
Yes, mash as normal, then use acid to pre-acidify.
Pre-acidifying has several benefits. It will discourage any unwanted microbes during the souring process. It will also help reduce the lacto from stripping foam proteins (as mentioned above) and it will also speed up the overall time that it takes to reach your desired ph.
 
My go to grist is as follows:

78% 2-row
11% White Wheat
11% Rye

I mash, pre-acidify down to 4.5, pitch my lacto and hold for 24-48 hours until I've hit my desired sourness levels, then its 15 minutes into the boil to kill everything off and hop. This is a great base for my normal summertime brew where I do a huge dry hop to make a sour citrus bomb, but the base would absolutely work with fruit as well.

As for head, when I do this process, I have a decent head that disappears rather quickly.

When I do my long aged sours, my head is almost gone as soon as its poured. I know that acid kills head, and my last 2 yr old sour ended up at 3.0pH. That thing poured with little head that fizzed away like it was soda in a matter of a few seconds. I didn't really care though because it was delicious.
 
Thanks! Is there some kind of general ml calculator in how much it takes to pre-acidity or is a guessing game? Thanks!
 
Not sure about a calculator, I just read the meter. I mash at 5.2-5.5ph as normal then use approx 10ml of lactic acid to pre-acidify to 4.3ph. Then pitch lacto and after 24-48 hrs I'm at my target of 3.3ph.
 
Should I keep my mash PH around 5.3ish, and after the mash, acidity further to mid 4s? Just wondering why this is necessary when lacto will do this...

Food for thought, I have had great success with using an unbuffered 1 L starter of Lacto. You won’t need to pre-acidify as the addition of the starter serves that function by dropping the pH. I believe you drop the pH to reduce proteolytic activity by the Lacto (loss of proteins = loss of head).

Example:
1 L of pH 3.4 plus 19 L of pH 5 = 20 L of pH 4.5

I also vote for a simple 50/50 Pilsner/wheat malt grist.
 
How would something like this work as a good fruit base?:

60% Pale 2-Row
30% White Wheat
10% Light DME

4.5ish SRM

Shoot for about 5ish IBU...probably use any hop that I have in the fridge since it's for bittering only and it ain't much.

I could do Pilsner instead of Pale 2-Row, but either way?
 
Yes RPH--We have went back and forth on that for awhile. It is a method that I want to eventually try, but for now, I like having the processes separated so I can maximize the optimum temp range for each segment of the process.

I'm shooting for 3.2-3.3 for this sour batch before proceeding to a boil.

When fermenting, I start off by placing fermenter in a kettle in the batub with cold water + ice (when needed) to keep it at 65. Once that's finished, I store fermenter at 68 for a week minimum. Should I trust co-pitching enough when I want to assure it gets to 3.2-3.3?

The co-souring method does seem very easy though. Basically, no boil necessary. On the FAQ, you say you don't need to pre-acidify, but on this thread you say you do. Which is it?

If you can assure me that the PH will hit 3.2-3.3, then I'm all game to try this out. When you talk about "hopping", you mean dry hopping (mainly pellets), correct? Assuming that at some point post fermentation that you simply "dry hop" to stop the sour process.

Also, how would you recommend sanitizing a chiller since the chiller is still used? Boil a separate pot of water for it?
 
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When fermenting, I start off by placing fermenter in a kettle in the batub with cold water + ice (when needed) to keep it at 65. Once that's finished, I store fermenter at 68 for a week minimum. Should I trust co-pitching enough when I want to assure it gets to 3.2-3.3?
My gose-inspired beer with US-05 I co-pitch with plantarum and ferment at 66-67. It's thoroughly soured and finished fermenting on day 5 and then I package it with a hop tea. I love the flavor I get from hop tea; I'm surprised this technique isn't more widely used.
Dry hopping is a good option as well. One regular here (sorry, I forgot who) has experienced flavor issues with dry hopping a low-pH beer, but my experience is that it's fine and it's definitely not a common complaint.
Hops increase foam.

Sour taste is a lot more accurately measured not TA, not pH (and perception is affected by other factors), but yes, pH will pretty much bottom out within a week, although sourness can continue to develop over an additional week if hops aren't added. L. plantarum does a great job souring quickly at room temp; lots of people can tell you that.

If you add fruit, that will directly contribute other organic acids.
The co-souring method does seem very easy though. Basically, no boil necessary. On the FAQ, you say you don't need to pre-acidify, but on this thread you say you do. Which is it?
I boil my beer (before souring) in order to get good break removal, fining, DMS removal, and for the ease of sanitation, etc, but it is an optional step.
Boiling after souring is not needed, and neither pre-souring nor boiling after souring are beneficial in my opinion.
I did make one no-boil sour (with a decoction to mash out) but I didn't detect any noticable flavor improvement vs boiling.

If you choose not to boil at all, sanitizing the chiller with a no-rinse sanitizer is an option if your chiller is thoroughly cleaned beforehand, or you can use hot water (>150°F for 10-15 minutes or so). If you're using an immersion chiller, you can stick it in your MLT to let the mash sanitize it.

For best foam retention, it's helpful to have the pH below 4.5 when you pitch the Lacto. Lactobacillus degrades the proteins responsible for head formation, but the enzyme activity appears to diminish in this lower pH range.
The MTF link I posted provides a good visual for this phenomenon.

Personally I've always been focused on flavor over appearance, so I consider pre-acidification to be an optional step for any method of souring (except in the case of adding wild microbes to unhopped wort). The other reason I consider pre-acidification to be an optional step is that it doesn't always work. Many people still struggle to get good head retention even though that's one of their goals.

An unbuffered Lacto starter should be able to accomplish most or all of the pre-acidification, as @isomerization mentioned. I buffer my starters to achieve a vastly higher cell growth, so I can't speak to that from experience.

Long term sours likely lose head retention because of the proteinase release caused by yeast autolysis (this is known to happen in non-sour beer) in addition to bacterial activity.

I think adding fresh DME wort later is not a bad idea (it's a hack I wouldn't use, but I don't doubt that it works). I believe commercial breweries achieve good head by blending the sour beer with younger and/or non-sour beer.

Hope this answers your questions. :)

P.S. The flavor produced by bacteria with a low-oxygen brew process is amazing beyond words and something I've never experienced in a commercial beer.
 
Thanks for the good info. You did answer all my questions.

I'm likely going to go the old school 2-part method. It's just easier when adding DME during the final "boil" to make sure some sort of head retention exists when DME can be added and lacto can be killed, the chiller can be sanitized, and a very mild bittery IBU can be added. Otherwise you are making DME on the side and pouring it in later, obviously after your hope of adding .5-1oz hops can "kill" the souring to stop the souring (getting pseudo-science here) AND hope that adds head retention. Theoretically, it should, but I'm not trusting 15 gallons of beer on it. Lots of on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off with the carboy lid in that scenario (multiple that by x3 lids since I'm doing a 15 gallons).

I think what the co-souring method lacks is a proven fix for head retention. You have ideas. But if you wanted to improve this method and to continue to champion it, I would suggest you find a proven way to solve adding head to a sour. Maybe that's a good next step for you...

IMO, a sour should have head and good taste. A sour shouldn't pour out and act like champagne. The best sour brewery in Idaho is right up the street that ages sour in bourbon barrels with 10 varieties on the tap list every time. They all have head to some degree. A weak head can still be a good head for a sour, but ZERO head is not correct. It shouldn't sound, look, and act "fizzy" after pouring. That's just incorrect for a sour IMO. My favorite "over the counter" sour to buy from the store (10 Barrel "Crush") has head (see above) and sounds just like a beer when it hits the glass. And hell yea, it taste like a sour.

Remember I made a sour before, and I loved it. But I did NOT like the minus head that it had nor the sound that it made when it hit the glass. Believe me that it is possible to have an amazing tasting sour with some sort of head to go along with it. They are not mutually exclusive. I challenge you to figure this out for the co-souring method, and then maybe will I adopt it, but as it stands, the separate pitch method whilst using DME makes a hell of a lot of sense here.
 
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Let's make sure we're on the same page.

Here's an example of poor "head". Notice the instability and lack of lacing.
I brewed this beer May 4th 2019, single infusion (bad for head), all trub into the fermenter (bad for head), minimal hops (bad for head), co-pitch without any kind of pre-acidification (bad for head), and it's been sitting pressurized in the bottle at room temp for over 9 months (bad for head; dying yeast release proteinase). Per my notes I targeted 2.6 vol CO2. It is 40/60 Belgian pilsner and american white wheat malt.
^ All of these things could easily be remedied while still using a co-souring process and without any kind of DME hack.

Immediately after pouring (I intentionally poured hard for these photos).
IMG_0702.JPG


1 minute
IMG_0703.JPG


3 minutes
IMG_0704.JPG


5 minutes
IMG_0705.JPG


Cheers
 
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RPH, can I just use my spigot on my kettle to check PH, or do I need to remove lid/wrap stir and take a reading from the top?

Pre-acidified to 4.5 PH exactly. The mash was 5.3 exactly. We put 6 capsules in (14.5 gallons) at 100F. Got it on a heatmap and wrapped in sleeping bag.

Should I plan on 48 hours? Thinking it wouldn't be worth me checking it tomorrow, probably sunday evening should be my first check.....
 
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For checking pH you at least need a large enough sample to cover the probe. PH should be the same throughout the wort. Draining wort from a spigot will pull in air from the top since there's normally no CO2 (positive pressure) being generated. Kettle souring always involves a risk of contamination (but if you're reasonably cautious it's usually fine).

6 caps per ~15 gallons is probably an under-pitch but it depends on the cell count of the caps and how fresh they are. Therefore it's hard to say when it will be fully soured. Nevertheless, 24-48 hours is a reasonable timeframe to check pH, assuming you used L. plantarum.
 
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Capsules are 10 billion CFU each. Should I use pitch more? BTW, your FAQ said 1-2 capsules per 5 gallons. We pitched the maximum in that range.....

maybe I’ll try the spigot. I don’t need much sample, only an ounce! I have glad press and seal around the opening, followed by my lid. Less air that way.
 
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My FAQ is specifically for co- or post-souring processes, which do not need a high Lacto pitch rate because the bacteria have a much longer time to work (and I postulate that the agitation from fermentation helps the bacteria sour faster).

When pre-souring you should pitch a high cell count to encourage souring as fast as possible because the wort is so much more vulnerable to contamination. Normally it's recommended to pitch at least 20 billion cells per gallon when pre-souring. However pitch rate is pretty forgiving so I would just leave it alone at this point.
 
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Perfect. I did pitch 20 billion per gallon. :)

Technically, I pitched a little more than that being it's 14.5 gallons. :)
 
You pitched 6 * 10 billion cells = 60 billion (assuming full viability).

60 ÷ 15 = 4 billion cells per gallon, which is 20% of what's suggested.
 
Maybe I should draw some now and see where it's at. It's been souring for 18 hours so far...
 
I let the spiggot run for a second prior.

First sample was PH 4.72
Second sample was PH 4.62

Doesn't seem like it's souring much at this point, if we trust what it's pulling down below. Considering to peel the saran wrap back some on a corner of the pot and to carefully add an assload more capsules.

@RPh_Guy
 
Just added 14-15. To go with my 6 already, that's about 20-21 billion now, or roughly 1.5 capsules per gallon.
 
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